The Russia/Ukraine War Thread

[WeneedLumme]

14 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

Such a ridiculous thing to say. Every war ends in communication and negotiation. More people dying is not the answer, from either side. 

You actually believe this nonsense?  Evidently you know nothing about either war or negotiations.

 

Some people should never be negotiated with, because they do not keep their word. It is stupid for honest people to negotiate with people like that because the honest party feels obligated to keep their word, but the dishonest party does not, so the benefits of any such agreements are entirely in favour of the dishonest party.

 

And negotiating with terrorists is foolish, since it obviously encourages more terrorism.

 

And of course, most wars end with winners and losers. If that were not the case, nobody would ever start a war. The winners set the terms and the losers accept them. If you are purporting not to understand this, you are being willfully ignorant, ie: dishonest.

[DSVII]

Quote

Such a ridiculous thing to say. Every war ends in communication and negotiation. More people dying is not the answer, from either side. 

 

@5forFighting

Just ask Czechoslovakia how negotiating with Nazi Germany worked out for them. This is literally the step we're at with Putin. 

 

A revanchist imperial power seeking territory inhabited by people they're claiming as citizens. And thinking that they'll stop there just because of a negotiation? Sure if you want to follow in Chamberlains footsteps. 

 

Negotiation will happen yes, but when the conditions are right. Right now it doesn't make sense with Russia still holding occupied territories or being unwilling to evacuate them.

 

This isn't about any Hollywood movie. Pick up a history book. More than just Crimea is at play here, Russia has made it clear that their goal is to tear down the post WW2 international order. How do you think China responds with Taiwan when they see the west backing down after two years of fighting? A negotiation now that results in a bad peace guarantees more deaths down the line.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics - The Russians made it pretty clear what their worldview and goals are

 

Edited January 16 by DSVII

[RomanPer]

18 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

Such a ridiculous thing to say. Every war ends in communication and negotiation. More people dying is not the answer, from either side. 

 

Please tell me more about "negotiations" with nazi Germany that ended the war...

[Rook]

6 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

So suggesting that negotiations bring an end to the war so no more people die is stirring the proverbial pot?

 

 

We’ve told you about twenty times now, the only negotiation is for Russia to GTFO of Ukraine.  There’s no way you’re this dense

[5forFighting]

1 hour ago, Rook said:

We’ve told you about twenty times now, the only negotiation is for Russia to GTFO of Ukraine.  There’s no way you’re this dense

You've told me... well, we can all go home then. 

[RomanPer]

24 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

You've told me... well, we can all go home then. 

 

You certainly can. You haven't answered any of my direct questions.

[Honky Cat]

 

[Reznor]

This is the worst position for a war to be in, frankly. Little progress from either side, but rather, just continuous contention of frontline land. This is the kind of war where there's a constant lemming lineup being pushed to the frontline to die, and when they fall, another trailing right behind picks the rifle back up. It's the kind of war that decimates a country's ability to regenerate their population, as most of the young, family-aged men end up dead.

 

From the Ukrainian side, this makes some sense. They are defending their country so they aren't giving up - because doing so means they become citizens of the very country they were fighting. Or, at least, under control of who they were fighting.  While valiant, it's very costly in both equipment and manpower and cannot last too much longer without more international aid.

 

From the Russian side, it also makes sense. (At least, so long as Russian lives remain expendable). Their belief is that international aid to Ukraine will eventually cease, at which time their badly depleted yet still operational forces can be bolstered for an overwhelming manpower advantage so they can actually advance with progress. Russia has played this card in the past, and they look to be doing so again as we can already see over 100,000 Russians dead, with 3-4 times that badly injured. Human life is once again of no concern - as long as the objective is met.

 

Sad.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

22 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

A Russian sympathizer? nonsense. I want peace and that is done in negotiations EVERY SINGLE WAR 

 

Dyu believe world war two was ended by negotiation?

 

Vietnam, Afghanistan?

 

Did the Russian Czar sign over 'his' lands?

 

How about coup's? Peaceful negotiation resulted in the assassination of 15 plus African leaders the last 35 years, more in the ME. 

 

Yes some by signature. More, don't know the percentage, by capitulation after you lose. TBF, talks happen in stalemates or when walls close simultaneously creating pressure points in more than one direction. 

 

 

Imagine a gang comes in to your homestead, does a home invasion. Locks you up in the basement.  30 days later, cigar in hand, your mum tied up in tow. With a big grin & a puff the hijacker says; lets talk terms?  ''I'll take the top half & your daughter, if she can cook but your mum can live...''

 

 

Thats still not negotiation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[5forFighting]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

You certainly can. You haven't answered any of my direct questions.

I'm sorry, am I obligated to answer all questions? That seems odd. What if I rattled off 60 questions here, would you have to answer them? The answer is no. 

[5forFighting]

2 hours ago, Reznor said:

This is the worst position for a war to be in, frankly. Little progress from either side, but rather, just continuous contention of frontline land. This is the kind of war where there's a constant lemming lineup being pushed to the frontline to die, and when they fall, another trailing right behind picks the rifle back up. It's the kind of war that decimates a country's ability to regenerate their population, as most of the young, family-aged men end up dead.

 

From the Ukrainian side, this makes some sense. They are defending their country so they aren't giving up - because doing so means they become citizens of the very country they were fighting. Or, at least, under control of who they were fighting.  While valiant, it's very costly in both equipment and manpower and cannot last too much longer without more international aid.

 

From the Russian side, it also makes sense. (At least, so long as Russian lives remain expendable). Their belief is that international aid to Ukraine will eventually cease, at which time their badly depleted yet still operational forces can be bolstered for an overwhelming manpower advantage so they can actually advance with progress. Russia has played this card in the past, and they look to be doing so again as we can already see over 100,000 Russians dead, with 3-4 times that badly injured. Human life is once again of no concern - as long as the objective is met.

 

Sad.

 

The back channels of conversation better be happening to try to figure this out before it goes nuclear and we all get sucked in.

[Rook]

15 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

I'm sorry, am I obligated to answer all questions? That seems odd. What if I rattled off 60 questions here, would you have to answer them? The answer is no. 

Actually Roman is very informative and is always willing to help clarify things for folks like yourself coming from a place of ignorance.

[Rook]

12 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

The back channels of conversation better be happening to try to figure this out before it goes nuclear and we all get sucked in.

If it goes nuclear, Russia will become a puddle 

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Rook said:

If it goes nuclear, Russia will become a puddle 

This has also been made abundantly clear to the point where even vermin like Putin can understand.

[RomanPer]

43 minutes ago, Rook said:

Actually Roman is very informative and is always willing to help clarify things for folks like yourself coming from a place of ignorance.

 

Thank you, bud. But lately my fuse is really short for the type of trolling that's happening here.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, 5forFighting said:

I'm sorry, am I obligated to answer all questions? That seems odd. What if I rattled off 60 questions here, would you have to answer them? The answer is no. 

 

Nah, you are not obligated to do anything. It's just interesting that you are avoiding questions that will expose your empty statements.

[Rook]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

This has also been made abundantly clear to the point where even vermin like Putin can understand.

Crazy to think some folks are thicker between the ears than that waste of skin

[Rook]

55 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Thank you, bud. But lately my fuse is really short for the type of trolling that's happening here.

I will always have your back brother!  Not on my watch!

[Sharpshooter]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Thank you, bud. But lately my fuse is really short for the type of trolling that's happening here.

Keep calm and Roman on. 

[Muscatel Marauder]

 

[SilentSam]

9 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

You've told me... well, we can all go home then. 

bring something to the table or thread that is informative,

This thread is less about options for Peace , 

And more about winning at ALL cost for UKraine ,.  With RuZ..  no deal, agreement, or truth stands to be worth more than the paper it’s printed on.

 

Liars murders thieves and terrorists have ruined it for what ever good may potentially exist in that country.

 

if they can not stand up to the power of Putin, then by doing nothing , they are complacent , aiding , and abetting his way.

 

Guilty of War Crimes.

[SilentSam]

 

 

these shadows, storms and scalps should just be Niknamed  “SureShots” .

[VegasCanuck]

17 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

So suggesting that negotiations bring an end to the war so no more people die is stirring the proverbial pot?

 

 

Trying to negotiate with Russia on this would be like trying to negotiate Mike Tyson in his prime into agreeing to a draw after a first round that you lost. He's going to knock your ass out!

 

Do most wars end in negotiation? Generally, yes, but only when you can trust that the aggressor is negotiating in good faith and not just for he opportunity to resupply themselves before they start fighting again.

 

Not sure how old you are or how much you have studied the start of WW2, but Putin is following a really old and established format that Hitler did. 

 

Leading up to WW2, Hitler kept annexing pieces of land. In 1938, he threatened wider war if Europe did not concede his annexation of Sudetenland. They did this in exchange for a pledge of peace from Hitler which he violated in March 1939 with grabbing Czechoslovakia. He kept this up right up to when he annexed Poland and started the war.

 

Does any of this sound familiar?

 

Why did Hitler want these lands? He needed resources to build a broader military in order to conquer the rest of Europe.

 

That brings us back to Putin, he won't stop unless Ukraine concedes the territories they have annexed, Crimea (Shipping routes and other resources) Ukraine in general is second for gas reserves and is rich in oil production, specifically in the regions that Putin claims to have annexed on behalf of Russia. Donbas region has an estimated 60 billion tonnes of coal.

 

If Russia controls 90% of energy production in Europe, then Russia controls the ability to annex Europe by force!

 

There is no reason that Russia needs to annex Ukraine except in the interest of creating dominance within Europe and ultimately, conquest.

 

So, if you want to negotiate with Russia, Putin will NOT withdraw, he will insist that the world respect his annexation of Donbas region and Crimea and 5 years from now, once he has put all those resources to use rebuilding the army, you will fight Russia all across Europe and in all other regions they (Putin) wish to own.

 

The world stops him here and now or sacrifices MILLIONS, possibly billions of lives in the very near future.

 

History always repeats itself as far as dictators go, and we're witnessing it repeating itself right now. We either learn from history or we repeat it with another World War, this one likely a nuclear one.

[SilentSam]

Stay tuned ! 
 

 

 

[VegasCanuck]

10 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Please tell me more about "negotiations" with nazi Germany that ended the war...

Of course negotiations ended the war with Nazi Germany. The negotiations were really swift and simple at the end.

 

Essentially, they were, stop fighting and surrender or we turn Berlin into a smoldering crater before the end of next week and make it glow in the dark for years to come!