The Russia/Ukraine War Thread

[Muscatel Marauder]

 

[BlockerHigh]

I will continue to assert peace is needed and here’s more reason why 

 

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1707407039448731684?s=46

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I will continue to assert peace is needed and here’s more reason why 

 

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1707407039448731684?s=46

Thats because Russia had a long period of time to dig in. There is more to war than gaining land, especially when outnumbered

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I will continue to assert peace is needed and here’s more reason why 

 

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1707407039448731684?s=46

 

Is there anyone in this thread that doesn't want peace?

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Is there anyone in this thread that doesn't want peace?

depends on what is meant when the word peace is used. i'm opposed to peace that leaves Russia in control over any Ukrainian people, which basically means any Ukrainian land.

 

Honestly Id like to free the Russian people from their own government as well but since they are mostly not willing to fight for their freedom its not worth the effort.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Yoshiyoshi

[Gurn]

6 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I will continue to assert peace is needed and here’s more reason why 

 

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1707407039448731684?s=46

So you are ok with some one else giving up their garage, bedroom kitchen and bathroom; for a perception of peace, but refuse to say if you would give up YOUR property?

Again I mention the 'perception' of peace, as Ukraine had Crimea taken from it, and that did not lead to peace.

[bishopshodan]

Just now, Yoshiyoshi said:

depends on what is meant when the word peace is used. i'm opposed to peace that leaves Russia in control over any Ukrainian people, which basically means any Ukrainian land.

 

I dont think of that as peace. Due to the invasion and control part. 

 

 

[I.Am.Ironman]

The fact remains that peace could happen tomorrow if Russia stopped their invasion and went home. Not another soldier would be killed on either side. That option has been there for them for 1.5 years now.

[Yoshiyoshi]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

I dont think of that as peace. Due to the invasion and control part. 

 

 

I dont know if i have the skills to explain my position better, im terrible at putting my thoughts into words. From my point of view, I care less about the invasion and occupation of lands and care more about what is done to the people in those lands. Due to the way Russia has acted in occupied territories and invaded ones since the start of the war, I am unwilling to leave anyone under Russian rule so for me peace in this conflict for me means removing all the people from Russian control. But that does not mean I am ok with evicting everyone from their homes and turning them into refugees or letting them be killed so the areas are unpopulated either. The units responsible for things along those lines need to be exterminated even after the war ends.

[BlockerHigh]

16 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

The fact remains that peace could happen tomorrow if Russia stopped their invasion and went home. Not another soldier would be killed on either side. That option has been there for them for 1.5 years now.

What would the USA do if China wanted missiles and bio research plants on the border of Texas/Mexico? I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis...The USA has shown how they would react.

 

Again, I am not supportive of Putin but you have to also consider actions and reactions. Life is not so simple as good guy bad guy. I am referring to the encroachment of NATO and the Minsk accords. As for the bio labs, no it is not conspiracy as MSM propaganda suggests. Victoria Nuland, the Under Secretary of State for the USA admitted it in a House Overview Hearing under oath (you can google it). So when you make an agreement with Russian not to encroach further, but do, then biolabs pop up....what do we expect?

According to RFK, an agreement was signed, Putin was pulling troops back in good faith, satellites showed this, and the USA and UK told Zelensky not to sign it. Is that true? Not sure, but I doubt RFK would say something that people "in the know" could easily verify.

 

Finally, I'm not suggesting this about you, but I see alot of emotional responses here, not discussing the points I made above that RFK mentioned (Minsk etc). I appreciate this is emotional for some (perhaps the people being emotional are Ukrainian), but it doesn't change the issues.

 

IMHO the only way to stop a war is a negotiation. Negotiations that WORK only work when both sides accept the reality that neither will get what they want. Believing groups will just give back territory in a war, is beyond naive, so pragmatists need to understand what you have to work with and negotiate from there. Expecting things to go back to how they were, won't solve anything and will only perpetuate the problem and create more death.

 

I don't want to see endless deaths and some of the arguments here don't seem to care about that. Because the reality is, you can say "Well putin can leave" but the REALITY is he won't. So what's the outcome? More death. Utopian expectations do not solve the problem. Reality and pragmatism do.

Edited September 28, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

What would the USA do if China wanted missiles and bio research plants on the border of Texas/Mexico? I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis...The USA has shown how they would react.

 

Again, I am not supportive of Putin but you have to also consider actions and reactions. Life is not so simple as good guy bad guy. I am referring to the encroachment of NATO and the Minsk accords. As for the bio labs, no it is not conspiracy as MSM propaganda suggests. Victoria Nuland, the Under Secretary of State for the USA admitted it in a House Overview Hearing under oath (you can google it). So when you make an agreement with Russian not to encroach, but do, then biolabs pop up....what do we expect?

According to RFK, an agreement was signed, Putin was pulling troops back in good faith, satellites showed this, and the USA and UK told Zelensky not to sign it. Is that true? Not sure, but I doubt RFK would like about something that people "in the know" could easily verify.

 

Finally, I'm not suggesting this about you, but I see alot of emotional responses here, not discussing the points I made above that RFK mentioned (Minsk etc). I appreciate this is emotional for some (perhaps the people being emotional are Ukrainian), but it doesn't change the issues.

 

IMHO the only way to stop a war is a negotiation. Negotiations that WORK only work when both sides accept the reality that neither will get what they want. Believing groups will just give back territory in a war, is beyond naive, so pragmatists need to understand what you have to work with and negotiate from there. Expecting things to go back to how they were, won't solve anything and will only perpetuate the problem and create more death.

 

I don't want to see endless deaths and some of the arguments here don't seem to care about that. Because the reality is, you can say "Well putin can leave" but the REALITY is he won't. So what's the outcome? More death. Utopian expectations do not solve the problem. Reality and pragmatism do.

Negotiation with a subhuman maniac like Putin simply doesn't work.  Literally the only solution is the complete extermination of his regime and subsequent denazification of Russia.  We've already been over why no one with a functioning brain respects RFK or takes that imbecile seriously.

 

There's simply no reason to treat Putin the same as actual people.

[BlockerHigh]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

Negotiation with a subhuman maniac like Putin simply doesn't work.  Literally the only solution is the complete extermination of his regime and subsequent denazification of Russia.  We've already been over why no one with a functioning brain respects RFK or takes that imbecile seriously.

 

There's simply no reason to treat Putin the same as actual people.

Great, that won't solve anything. You are giving emotionally driven responses that are not well thought out and to be honest, I don't care for them. You don't need to respond to me, and I am no longer going to respond to you. I prefer to discuss these topics with people open to intellectual debate, not "we need to destroy russia!". This is not intellectual, pragmatic, and even possible without a Nuclear WW3.

If you feel your views are pragmatic in solving a major global problem, good for you, they aren't in my view. And really, repeating this over and over doesn't do anything.

Wish you the best dude

[Salacious Crumb]

10 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

What would the USA do if China wanted missiles and bio research plants on the border of Texas/Mexico? I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis...The USA has shown how they would react.

 

Again, I am not supportive of Putin but you have to also consider actions and reactions. Life is not so simple as good guy bad guy. I am referring to the encroachment of NATO and the Minsk accords. As for the bio labs, no it is not conspiracy as MSM propaganda suggests. Victoria Nuland, the Under Secretary of State for the USA admitted it in a House Overview Hearing under oath (you can google it). So when you make an agreement with Russian not to encroach further, but do, then biolabs pop up....what do we expect?

According to RFK, an agreement was signed, Putin was pulling troops back in good faith, satellites showed this, and the USA and UK told Zelensky not to sign it. Is that true? Not sure, but I doubt RFK would say something that people "in the know" could easily verify.

 

Finally, I'm not suggesting this about you, but I see alot of emotional responses here, not discussing the points I made above that RFK mentioned (Minsk etc). I appreciate this is emotional for some (perhaps the people being emotional are Ukrainian), but it doesn't change the issues.

 

IMHO the only way to stop a war is a negotiation. Negotiations that WORK only work when both sides accept the reality that neither will get what they want. Believing groups will just give back territory in a war, is beyond naive, so pragmatists need to understand what you have to work with and negotiate from there. Expecting things to go back to how they were, won't solve anything and will only perpetuate the problem and create more death.

 

I don't want to see endless deaths and some of the arguments here don't seem to care about that. Because the reality is, you can say "Well putin can leave" but the REALITY is he won't. So what's the outcome? More death. Utopian expectations do not solve the problem. Reality and pragmatism do.

Parroting far right tripe does not make it true. 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

Great, that won't solve anything. You are giving emotionally driven responses that are not well thought out and to be honest, I don't care for them. You don't need to respond to me, and I am no longer going to respond to you. I prefer to discuss these topics with people open to intellectual debate, not "we need to destroy russia!". This is not intellectual, pragmatic, and even possible without a Nuclear WW3.

If you feel your views are pragmatic in solving a major global problem, good for you, they aren't in my view. And really, repeating this over and over doesn't do anything.

Wish you the best dude

And you're openly posting Russian propaganda that needs to be addressed.  Forcing an unjust peace on a country working to eradicate these orcs from it isn't acceptable.  The sensible solution is to give the Ukrainians the tools to properly defend their home.

Edited September 28, 2023 by King Heffy

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, BlockerHigh said:

What would the USA do if China wanted missiles and bio research plants on the border of Texas/Mexico? I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis...The USA has shown how they would react.

 

Again, I am not supportive of Putin but you have to also consider actions and reactions. Life is not so simple as good guy bad guy. I am referring to the encroachment of NATO and the Minsk accords. As for the bio labs, no it is not conspiracy as MSM propaganda suggests. Victoria Nuland, the Under Secretary of State for the USA admitted it in a House Overview Hearing under oath (you can google it). So when you make an agreement with Russian not to encroach, but do, then biolabs pop up....what do we expect?

According to RFK, an agreement was signed, Putin was pulling troops back in good faith, satellites showed this, and the USA and UK told Zelensky not to sign it. Is that true? Not sure, but I doubt RFK would like about something that people "in the know" could easily verify.

 

Finally, I'm not suggesting this about you, but I see alot of emotional responses here, not discussing the points I made above that RFK mentioned (Minsk etc). I appreciate this is emotional for some (perhaps the people being emotional are Ukrainian), but it doesn't change the issues.

 

IMHO the only way to stop a war is a negotiation. Negotiations that WORK only work when both sides accept the reality that neither will get what they want. Believing groups will just give back territory in a war, is beyond naive, so pragmatists need to understand what you have to work with and negotiate from there. Expecting things to go back to how they were, won't solve anything and will only perpetuate the problem and create more death.

 

I don't want to see endless deaths and some of the arguments here don't seem to care about that. Because the reality is, you can say "Well putin can leave" but the REALITY is he won't. So what's the outcome? More death. Utopian expectations do not solve the problem. Reality and pragmatism do.

No that IS a conspiracy theory. A "biolab" is such a vague term that it doesnt actually refer to the reality and is being used as if it was for some sort of forbidden weapons research rather than the truth which it was just a research lab that had some funding from the US. Im not going to go look for that info since this was already dealt with last year in the old thread.

 

There was never any agreement with Russia to pull back troops and it has been Russia that violated agreements various times early in the war to allow civilians to evacuate and then opened fire on them.

 

There is no negotiation that can work because its not acceptable to leave any people under Russian rule from Ukraine due to what will happen to them if left under Russian control. It is not ok to sacrifice other people in the name of peace. Trying to bring an end to the war quickly will not lead to a long term peace it will just cause even worse conflict in the future. Helping Ukraine deplete Russian military power is the most efficient way of helping bring about long term peace and has the added bonus of actually being on the right side of the morality debate. There is no argument you can make that says its ok for Russia to abuse Ukrainians.

[BlockerHigh]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

And you're openly posting Russian propaganda that needs to be addressed.  Forcing an unjust peace on a country working to eradicate these orcs from it isn't acceptable.  The sensible solution is to give the Ukrainians the tools to properly defend their home.

What Russian propaganda? Just because you don't like factual information doesn't make it "Russian Propaganda"

RFK is not a Russian propagandist. Victoria Nuland is HERE on video admitting the biolabs - and the media still calls it "Russian Propoganda" as you do. Its clear you're being misinformed and need to do independent research.

 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questions-undersecretary-nuland-biolabs-ukraine

 

 

Have a Good day.

 

 

[BlockerHigh]

4 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

No that IS a conspiracy theory. A "biolab" is such a vague term that it doesnt actually refer to the reality and is being used as if it was for some sort of forbidden weapons research rather than the truth which it was just a research lab that had some funding from the US. Im not going to go look for that info since this was already dealt with last year in the old thread.

 

There was never any agreement with Russia to pull back troops and it has been Russia that violated agreements various times early in the war to allow civilians to evacuate and then opened fire on them.

 

There is no negotiation that can work because its not acceptable to leave any people under Russian rule from Ukraine due to what will happen to them if left under Russian control. It is not ok to sacrifice other people in the name of peace. Trying to bring an end to the war quickly will not lead to a long term peace it will just cause even worse conflict in the future. Helping Ukraine deplete Russian military power is the most efficient way of helping bring about long term peace and has the added bonus of actually being on the right side of the morality debate. There is no argument you can make that says its ok for Russia to abuse Ukrainians.

 

Yes and they told us wuhan wasn't doing gain of function research and covid didn't come from a lab.

Come on man...at some point we have to start using common sense, particularly when we've already been lied to on the topic.

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, BlockerHigh said:

 

Yes and they told us wuhan wasn't doing gain of function research and covid didn't come from a lab.

Come on man...at some point we have to start using common sense, particularly when we've already been lied to on the topic.

and there it is, i was waiting for you to link covid to a lab. as soon as i saw that biolab post i knew it would lead here

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I am no longer going to respond to you.

 

2 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

What Russian propaganda? Just because you don't like factual information doesn't make it "Russian Propaganda"

RFK is not a Russian propagandist. Victoria Nuland is HERE on video admitting the biolabs - and the media still calls it "Russian Propoganda" as you do. Its clear you're being misinformed and need to do independent research.

 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questions-undersecretary-nuland-biolabs-ukraine

 

 

Have a Good day.

 

 

[BlockerHigh]

2 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

and there it is, i was waiting for you to link covid to a lab. as soon as i saw that biolab post i knew it would lead here

I posted info prior on that...scroll up to my past post on it to see proof...proof from the govt hearings, etc...don't need to repost all of it since its above.

[Yoshiyoshi]

Proof thats not proof, facts that arent facts. I miss the days when words actually meant what they say. There is no point in arguing with conspiracy theories, if someone else wants to ill let them take up the torch

[BlockerHigh]

5 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Proof thats not proof, facts that arent facts. I miss the days when words actually meant what they say. There is no point in arguing with conspiracy theories, if someone else wants to ill let them take up the torch

there's literally govt documents I've posted

 

Hiding from facts is not healthy.. It's important to learn how we are manipulated. Look, I get it. Alot of people don't like to see reality, because its scary to learn we are lied to. But its important, because as you suggest, facts do matter, and its important to learn the correct facts, not misinformation.

 

I would suggest you read those links first, then make a determination on what's a lie and not. Dismissing something before you read actual government documents would suggest you're scared to be exposed to something that may counter your perception. Dismissing it as misinformation before you've even read it, and seen the source doesn't make sense to me.

If after you read them, you think they're all lies, ok...nothing I can say or do will change your mind...but I for one think anyone who's intellectually honest who reads them, would have concerns.

 

Wish you luck!

Edited September 28, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, BlockerHigh said:

I will continue to assert peace is needed and here’s more reason why 

 

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1707407039448731684?s=46

Respectfully.  You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion is entirely worthless as we have no significant dog in this fight.  We're not affected by any of this.  Our relatives are not dead, our wives, sisters, daughters not raped; our children not kidnapped and our homes not burned out.

 

You can preach peace and that's fine.  I prefer to wish a justifiable end to this conflict.  One in which Russia is defeated because they will not learn their lesson any other way and any ceasefire just means that in time they will attempt this again.

[Warhippy]

28 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

What Russian propaganda? Just because you don't like factual information doesn't make it "Russian Propaganda"

RFK is not a Russian propagandist. Victoria Nuland is HERE on video admitting the biolabs - and the media still calls it "Russian Propoganda" as you do. Its clear you're being misinformed and need to do independent research.

 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questions-undersecretary-nuland-biolabs-ukraine

 

 

Have a Good day.

 

 

What is a biolab?

 

Biolabs are research facilities that study living organisms, with a particular focus on contagions. These labs are designed with special safety measures in place both to protect lab workers and to prevent the accidental release of pathogens into the surrounding environment. There are four biosafety levels, with varying layers of containment measures. Biolabs often come under criticism for their secretive nature, the potential risk they pose to the surrounding area, and their use of animals in research. 

What do we know about biolabs?

Historically, little information has been available about biolabs, though in recent years investigative reports and increased government transparency has allowed us to learn more.

Biolabs are used to study living organisms, particularly those that are contagious and pose a threat to human health. They were created in order to study naturally emerging viruses and microbes, as well as those that might be human-made and used for bioterrorism.

Because of the inherent danger in studying microbes that pose health hazards, the National Institutes for Health have delineated four different hazard levels of biolabs, with the highest – level 4 – having the most stringent precautions. For instance, a level 4 lab is kept continuously airtight, whereas a level 3 lab only needs to be airtight when it is being disinfected. Another distinction, for example, between Level 3 and Level 4 is that level 3 research involves agents that “cause diseases that may have serious or lethal consequences,” while level 4 labs use agents that “cause diseases that are usually life threatening.”

The key differences across the four levels can be summarized as follows: 

BSL-1 labs are used to study agents not known to consistently cause disease in healthy adults. They follow basic safety procedures and require no special equipment or design features.

BSL-2 labs are used to study moderate-risk agents that pose a danger if accidentally inhaled, swallowed, or exposed to the skin. Safety measures include the use of gloves and eyewear as well as handwashing sinks and waste decontamination facilities.

BSL-3 labs are used to study agents that can be transmitted through the air and cause potentially lethal infection. Researchers perform lab manipulations in a gas-tight enclosure. Other safety features include clothing decontamination, sealed windows, and specialized ventilation systems.

BSL-4 labs are used to study agents that pose a high risk of life-threatening disease for which no vaccine or therapy is available. Lab personnel are required to wear full-body, air-supplied suits and to shower when exiting the facility. The labs incorporate all BSL-3 features and occupy safe, isolated zones within a larger building. (NIH Source)

 

What is the truth of the biolab spoken of by Russian propagandists?

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/25/1087910880/biological-weapons-far-right-russia-ukraine

 

https://thebulletin.org/2022/07/russia-finds-another-stage-for-the-ukraine-biolabs-disinformation-show/

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/29/truth-about-hunter-biden-ukrainian-bio-labs/

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/02/ukraine-biolabs-conspiracy-theory-qanon/

 

Since 2005, the U.S. has partnered with Ukraine through the Pentagon’s Biological Threat Reduction Program. The purpose is "to support peaceful and safe biological detection and diagnostic capabilities and to reduce the threats posed by pathogens," according to a March 2022 government fact sheet.

The Defense Department’s Cooperative Threat Reduction program "has provided technical support to the Ukrainian Ministry of Health since 2005 to improve public health laboratories, whose mission is analogous to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention," Weber said. 

Also known as the Nunn-Lugar program, the initiative began after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 as a project aimed at dismantling and securing leftover weapons of mass destruction programs in former Soviet countries.

The facilities in Ukraine

The Pentagon hasn’t said anything new about the 46 facilities — we reported about them in April. In fact, the June 9 release at the center of these claims specifically states that Ukraine "has no nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons programs."

With regard to the 46 facilities, the government fact sheet said the U.S. has:

"Worked collaboratively to improve Ukraine’s biological safety, security, and disease surveillance for both human and animal health, providing support to 46 peaceful Ukrainian laboratories, health facilities, and disease diagnostic sites over the last two decades. The collaborative programs have focused on improving public health and agricultural safety measures at the nexus of nonproliferation." 

In March, the Pentagon said much of the same, adding that the program has invested about $200 million in Ukraine, "supporting 46 laboratories, health facilities and diagnostic sites" and that it has "improved Ukraine’s biological safety, security and surveillance for both human and animal health." 

While the U.S. is providing support for Ukraine, the labs are owned and operated by the Ukrainian government, Robert Pope, director of the Cooperative Threat Reduction Department, previously told PolitiFact.

"Specifically, we make the labs more secure from accidental or intentional release, provide diagnostic equipment, train personnel on the use of the equipment, and train them how to detect potential outbreaks," Pope said. "DTRA not only does this with Ukraine, but also with partners in over 30 countries, at their request, to assist with safe disease detection and diagnosis." 

 

It appears as though the easily mislead continue to be easily mislead.  

[Warhippy]

22 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

Hiding from facts is not healthy.. It's important to learn how we are manipulated. Look, I get it. Alot of people don't like to see reality, because its scary to learn we are lied to. But its important, because as you suggest, facts do matter, and its important to learn the correct facts, not misinformation.

Agreed.  Ironically