VegasCanuck Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, Honky Cat said: I think Graham is a bit of a weasel, but he is bang on here. I firmly believe that if the US pulls support, we will be in WW3 within about 10 years. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honky Cat Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrafted Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) If you have the time to read this essay from ISW, I strongly recommend it. https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/weakness-lethal-why-putin-invaded-ukraine-and-how-war-must-end Quote Weakness is Lethal: Why Putin Invaded Ukraine and How the War Must End Nataliya Bugayova, Kateryna Stepanenko, and Frederick W. Kagan October 1, 2023 Russian President Vladimir Putin didn’t invade Ukraine in 2022 because he feared NATO. He invaded because he believed that NATO was weak, that his efforts to regain control of Ukraine by other means had failed, and that installing a pro-Russian government in Kyiv would be safe and easy. His aim was not to defend Russia against some non-existent threat but rather to expand Russia’s power, eradicate Ukraine’s statehood, and destroy NATO, goals he still pursues. Quote An enduring end to the current Russian war on Ukraine requires forcing Putin to accept defeat. He—and his successors—must be made to realize that they cannot impose their will on Ukraine and the West militarily, cannot suborn Ukraine politically, and cannot prevail diplomatically. As long as the Kremlin cherishes the hope of success—which any face-saving compromise settlement would fuel—it will continue to seek to overcome its setbacks in ways that make renewed war very likely. Ukraine and the West should seek a permanent end to this conflict, not a temporary respite. Renewed war will likely be larger in scale and even more dangerous to Ukraine and the West. It will be extremely costly as well since a renewed war once Moscow has rearmed and prepared will likely be far costlier and more dangerous. Demands to reduce the financial burden of supporting Ukraine now simply store up greater risk and expense for the future. There is no path to real peace other than helping Ukraine inflict an unequivocal military defeat on Russia and then helping to rebuild Ukraine into a military and society so strong and resilient that no future Russian leader sees an opportunity like the ones Putin misperceived in 2014 and 2022. This path is achievable if the West commits to supporting Ukraine in the prolonged effort likely needed to walk down it. If the West is instead lured by the illusion of some compromise, it may end the pain for now, but only at the cost of much greater pain later. Putin has shown that he views compromise as surrender, and surrender emboldens him to reattack. This war can only end not when Putin feels that he can save face, but rather when he knows that he cannot win. Edited October 3, 2023 by undrafted Added second quote 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 10 minutes ago, undrafted said: If you have the time to read this essay from ISW, I strongly recommend it. https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/weakness-lethal-why-putin-invaded-ukraine-and-how-war-must-end Lol guess that didn't work out for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muscatel Marauder Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Optimist Prime Posted October 3, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 hours ago, Honky Cat said: This is the 3rd time I have found myself agreeing with Lindsay Graham. On this statement he is absolutely correct. 1 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrafted Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 14 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Lol guess that didn't work out for him Not yet, but there's still a danger he may ultimately succeed if certain politicians keep pushing for a "freeze" as a form of "peace". That's the gist of the essay: it's a warning about the consequences of the West NOT supporting Ukraine in it's goal to free itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 55 minutes ago, undrafted said: Not yet, but there's still a danger he may ultimately succeed if certain politicians keep pushing for a "freeze" as a form of "peace". That's the gist of the essay: it's a warning about the consequences of the West NOT supporting Ukraine in it's goal to free itself. I thought the European Union said they will keep up support even without the United States? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 33 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: I thought the European Union said they will keep up support even without the United States? USA will never stop aiding Ukraine. If we lose Ukraine, we lose Taiwan. Never going to happen. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 59 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: I thought the European Union said they will keep up support even without the United States? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, moosehead said: USA will never stop aiding Ukraine. If we lose Ukraine, we lose Taiwan. Never going to happen. While I do agree with the point you're making, didn't the last deal struck cancel all the funding for Ukraine? 2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: Is this you confirming what I was asking is accurate? Also, that's hardly that much money. I would imagine the big players will have to be Germany, France and great Britain Edit: I see it's part of a $2 billion plan that's not even close to enough. So either Canada is going to have to pony up a lot more or the United States will have to get back on board and with them have an election coming up. I highly doubt they will continue to fund Ukraine. So yeah, it looks like Canada and the European Union are going to have to dig deep in their pockets. Edited October 3, 2023 by Ryan Strome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said: While I do agree with the point you're making, didn't the last deal struck cancel all the funding for Ukraine? Is this you confirming what I said is accurate? Also, that's hardly that much money. I would imagine the big players will have to be Germany, France and great Britain I am confirming what has been known for some time. Namely, that the US won’t abandon Ukraine, and that members of NATO and those in the EU won’t either. The $14 million is being put towards a larger amount to replenish ammo. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: I am confirming what has been known for some time. Namely, that the US won’t abandon Ukraine, and that members of NATO and those in the EU won’t either. The $14 million is being put towards a larger amount to replenish ammo. Yes, the 2 billion that I pointed out. However, unless I missing something, hasn't the US essentially abandoned Ukraine? Edited October 3, 2023 by Ryan Strome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said: Yes, the 2 billion that I pointed out. However, unless I missing something, hasn't the US essentially abandoned Ukraine? No, the US hasn’t abandoned Ukraine. You may indeed be missing something. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Just now, Sharpshooter said: No, the US hasn’t abandoned Ukraine. You may indeed be missing something. Just so we don't have to go through about 200 posts. Why don't you just tell me what I'm missing? Because it was just a compromise made. And from what I've seen there's no money in it for Ukraine. Second to that you mentioned the European Union, yet there was just an Eastern European country that said there will be no more aid for Ukraine. And what's Poland been up to the last couple weeks. So yeah I do have some concerns and some questions and feel free to respond to them. You seem pretty active with this Ukraine stuff so I mean we can save ourselves time and you can just tell me where I'm wrong or allow somebody else to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said: Just so we don't have to go through about 200 posts. Why don't you just tell me what I'm missing? Because it was just a compromise made. And from what I've seen there's no money in it for Ukraine. Second to that you mentioned the European Union, yet there was just an Eastern European country that said there will be no more aid for Ukraine. And what's Poland been up to the last couple weeks. So yeah I do have some concerns and some questions and feel free to respond to them. You seem pretty active with this Ukraine stuff so I mean we can save ourselves time and you can just tell me where I'm wrong or allow somebody else to. Funding is already in place to carry Ukraine forward in the short term. Biden has drawdown authority to continue supplying Ukraine. The current deal by Congress is for only 45 days. McCarthy himself has supported the war and Ukraine. The majority of US citizens supports the war. Which Eastern European country do you speak of? The vast majority of European countries and their administrations are supporting Ukraine in financial, military, or humanitarian aid. Poland has been a supporter of Ukraine and continues to be. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muscatel Marauder Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: Funding is already in place to carry Ukraine forward in the short term. Biden has drawdown authority to continue supplying Ukraine. The current deal by Congress is for only 45 days. McCarthy himself has supported the war and Ukraine. The majority of US citizens supports the war. Which Eastern European country do you speak of? The vast majority of European countries and their administrations are supporting Ukraine in financial, military, or humanitarian aid. Poland has been a supporter of Ukraine and continues to be. Slovakia As for Poland they were pissed at VZ As for the 45 days there is no guarantee the government will get funding after that. I will be optimistic but I just see a few things splitting at the seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 30 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Yes, the 2 billion that I pointed out. However, unless I missing something, hasn't the US essentially abandoned Ukraine? From what I can gather a small angry far right crowd within the US house of reps is intent on lining up behind Trump in support of Putin. I think four or five years ago maybe longer we learned that Trump is in debt or was in debt to Vlad the Invader to the toon of nearly a billion dollars, and the thought at the time was that he was portraying Putin in a good light to buy time or literally pay down that debt in kind. it is gross whatever it is these magamaniacs are trying to do, Gaetz today, LOL. Dudes days in the house are now numbered. EDIT: Oh i got off topic: so the shutdown showdown did indeed leave any new funding for ukraine out of the deal that was essentially a bare bones kick the can for 45 days: there will be one off funding bills in the interim, would be my guess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrafted Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Slovakia As for Poland they were pissed at VZ As for the 45 days there is no guarantee the government will get funding after that. I will be optimistic but I just see a few things splitting at the seems. To put things simply: The "45 days" is an emergency budget measure that was passed primarily to insure government employees, including the military, continue to get their pay (I'm aware of this because a good friend's brother and his wife are a USAF officers). The holdup for the full budget, including the aid package to Ukraine, is solely due to the MAGAT Republicans who are actively working to help Putin achieve his aims by stonewalling the government funding process. 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 38 minutes ago, undrafted said: To put things simply: The "45 days" is an emergency budget measure that was passed primarily to insure government employees, including the military, continue to get their pay (I'm aware of this because a good friend's brother and his wife are a USAF officers). The holdup for the full budget, including the aid package to Ukraine, is solely due to the MAGAT Republicans who are actively working to help Putin achieve his aims by stonewalling the government funding process. While this is RT reporting this but they have been reporting riffs since the UN general Assembly. ‘Titanic effort’ required to repair relations with Kiev – Warsaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 29 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: While this is RT reporting this but they have been reporting riffs since the UN general Assembly. ‘Titanic effort’ required to repair relations with Kiev – Warsaw Can we get a less biased source than Russian state media please? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 23 minutes ago, King Heffy said: Can we get a less biased source than Russian state media please? Absolutely, that's essentially what I'm asking for. I would like to know if somebody who's got more of a heads up with European news if they can corroborate this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Absolutely, that's essentially what I'm asking for. I would like to know if somebody who's got more of a heads up with European news if they can corroborate this. Why post Russian propaganda in the first place? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Just now, Alflives said: Why post Russian propaganda in the first place? Why don't you just read my posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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