The Russia/Ukraine War Thread

[Playoff Beered]

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

 

Quote

"If there is some pause in their aggression against Ukraine, any freezing of the situation, there will be a new critical moment. 2028. If Russia is allowed to adapt now, by 2028, the Kremlin will be able to restore the military potential that we destroyed. And it will have enough strengths to attack the countries in focus of Russian expansion. And in addition to Ukraine, these are definitely the Baltic states and definitely other countries where Russian contingents are present. This is clear information from our intelligence and we are signaling it directly to you. Russia is trying to freeze the situation to adapt and learning from its mistakes and preparing to move on. Please remember that the most dangerous enemy is the one who really made conclusions and prepared for the next attack based on, especially on these conclusions. Moscow clearly outlined its ambition to capture more imperial space, to prevent Europe from being a place of free nations and working democracies to break European unity. And war is Russia's basic tool for this, a tool to enslave or to manipulate others. Russia tried for decades to keep control over the neighboring nations by starting wars and by freezing wars. Russia has hurt Moldova, tries to crush and divide Georgia, destabilize other parts of the world, the Caucasus, strangles Belarus and tries to tear pieces from the body of Ukraine. Every nation that Russia is acting against in some way or another, every state that has suffered from Russia interference or invasion. And we all have to stay in a special unity, stay together in a special cooperation and in a special relationship with everyone else in the European Union. We all need a format of support for the nations whose lives Russia has already tried to destroy so that the ruin caused by Russia can never spread anywhere else. All these countries need economic support, it's true. And all these countries need security guarantees so that Russia will not even be tempted to try to break their sovereignty even again, ever again. And a clear signal is needed, Russia has no chance. And most importantly, what will give our unity the full strength, the aggressor is most effectively neutralized by defeat, defeat in war. Right now, and right in Ukraine, we have the opportunity to cause a fundamental defeat to Russia's aggression. Together with you and our partners, we have already done things that seemed impossible to many. Together, we have defended Ukraine. Europe is more independent of Russia than ever before. Europe has truly proven that it has the right to be a global center for the protection of human freedom and international law. And despite of what happens in other parts of the world, despite of what political tornadoes our partners experience, Europe must be strong. Now Europe is following the developments in America and the growing political storm. And Europe has its own potential for strength and its global role, which should be as powerful as possible in all key issues that are important for Europe. And as for political storms, I'm confident in America, confident there are strong people, strong society with strong institutions, strong energy of democracy. And I was recently in Washington, talked with the President Biden, I talked to congressmen from both parties, both chambers. They fully support the defense of freedom and understand that it is Russia and other enemies to our way of life who want to write such political storms. So we in Europe have to be ready. America helped us, helped Europe to survive. And now it is important, important, very important for Europe not to hide sails from the wind trying to wait out the storm, but to be together in this uncertain time to work together, to united and protect our values, our common space of liberty, common with the U.S. This mutual support, both in calm, in calm times and times of security challenges and turbulence, is the real meaning of the transatlantic partnership. Dear colleagues, thanks to Ukraine, your soldiers are not fighting against Russia right now. And we do not doubt NATO's, NATO's strengths. But I'm sure none of you wants to find out what it will be like if, God forbid, NATO has to stand up for one of you. We have to win in Ukraine so that Putin cannot scale this aggression to someone, someone else. And it is realistic. That's why the key things are our unity, the unity and solidarity of all of our Europe must be unwavering, the unity of all 27 EU countries, all the Europe, not only EU, the strength of our common rules and agreements, the firmness of the EU's ability to expand under the founding treaties. And I thank all of you who really work, who truly work for the strength of the Ukraine, for the strength of the EU. Secondly, we must not allow Putin to destabilize any other parts of the world and our partners in order to ruin Europe's power. We must continue to put pressure with sanctions politically and economically so that Russia cannot spread chaos. The presence of Russia, its military or proxies on the territory of any other country is a threat to all of us, I'm sure. And we must work together to push Russia out of the territory of other countries. Thirdly, the capability of Ukrainian soldiers, air defense in our country, especially now before winter, and the weapons in the hands of our soldiers, missiles, artillery, with which we can destroy the positions of the occupiers and liberate our land and our houses. Every Russian drone shut down in Ukraine, every Russian tank destroyed in Ukraine confirms that this drone, this tank, any other Russian weapon destroyed in Ukraine will not strike anyone else in Europe. And I thank all of you, each and every one of you, your nations, thank you for your defence help. Additional air defense systems for Ukraine, additional artillery and shells, additional long-range missiles and drones for our soldiers, as well as additional formats of support and security guarantees for nations threatened by Russia. All this is a real protection of Europe from further aggressive steps by Russian Federation. And to ensure that in the coming future there is no war anywhere in Europe, that no other city in Europe lives through what our Kharkiv, for example Kharkiv, and all the cities and villages of Ukraine are experiencing, than at this time. Right now, this year, next year, and above all in Ukraine, our unity must work to the full capacity. Let only Putin's ambitions be ruined, not our countries, not our people, not our cities. The children of every country deserve to be secure, and everywhere in the country. Not just in the subway, not just in the shelters, underground, but everywhere. We must make it possible."

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Playoff Beered]

 

[Honky Cat]

lol.

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

 

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

agreed, I believe they will keep feigning to the coast and if an opportunity arrises to create a beachhead, they will. The east push vs south push is working very well at 'ping-ponging' russian troop concentrations, it just makes sense to try to pull more to a 'third front' which can be accomplished just like they are doing it, 20 man units or 16 man units raiding the coastline could be just as effective as a full on landing by a battle group. THing is if Russian DOESN"T reinforce the beaches in Crimea, then really the Ukraine authorities should land some thousands at once and force the issue of the third front. Just my opionion. prepping the region as they ahve it is now very easy for them to simply keep dusting the important units and equipment via skyshadow's et cetera.  

My biggest concern is the supply of resources to Ukraine. There appears to be a segment of the GOP that resents how much the USA is sending to Ukraine versus what Europeans actually contribute themselves. The Euros are doing much better but are not doing enough. For security reasons the 'burn' rate of $'s going to Ukraine is not clear. Whatever it is it is not enough to force a AFU break through and a possible Russian withdrawal. Time does not benefit Ukraine. The Russian army is slowly getting stronger. The longer Russia can stay in the fight the more likely international forces will try to force a peace. 

 

Ukraine cannot really trust any of their allies. Yet Ukraine cannot carry on the fight without significant help. The AFU could kill a million Russians and still not defeat them. Political pressure could easily force Ukraine into riskier tactical battles. Not good. The USA and NATO have to supply enough weapons, including aircraft, to force a breakout to the Azov Sea. That might be enough to force regime change in Moscow. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Boudrias

[Canuck Surfer]

Probably posted, but disgusting

 

 

[Silent Man]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Probably posted, but disgusting

 

 

This place about 2.5 hours drive from my native city Kharkiv

Russian fascism in a full display

 

[Alflives]

5 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

lol.

 

 

Pootin and his cronies need to be publicly tried, convicted, and hanged. 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Silent Man said:

This place about 2.5 hours drive from my native city Kharkiv

Russian fascism in a full display

 

 

Бережи себе!

 

 Путін — хуйло!

 

My favorite Kharkiv band; 

 

[Muscatel Marauder]

 

[Silent Man]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Бережи себе!

 

 Путін — хуйло!

 

My favorite Kharkiv band; 

 

Slava Ukraine ! Glory to Ukraine!

[Optimist Prime]

a US F-16 shot down a Turkish drone in Northeastern Syria today. It had been targetting Kurds and they requested assistance. Interesting.

[Honky Cat]

 

[Playoff Beered]

56 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

 

Not really surprising considering the constant flow of russian propaganda being parroted by the useful idiots tucker carlson, john ritter et al. 

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, Honky Cat said:

 

Sad that they don't understand how great a deal the Ukrainians are giving the US by destroying Russia's military capability with no loss of American life.  As well as the right thing to do, supplying the needed weapons is an investment towards security in the future.

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

 

Z, I suppose I should not use that abbreviation, has a firm grasp on issues. This is very poignant, well thought out!

 

Europe needs to be capable of withstanding Putin without America. Be part of a group that helps keep them on track.

 

8 hours ago, Boudrias said:

My biggest concern is the supply of resources to Ukraine. There appears to be a segment of the GOP that resents how much the USA is sending to Ukraine versus what Europeans actually contribute themselves. The Euros are doing much better but are not doing enough. For security reasons the 'burn' rate of $'s going to Ukraine is not clear. Whatever it is it is not enough to force a AFU break through and a possible Russian withdrawal. Time does not benefit Ukraine. The Russian army is slowly getting stronger. The longer Russia can stay in the fight the more likely international forces will try to force a peace. 

 

Ukraine cannot really trust any of their allies. Yet Ukraine cannot carry on the fight without significant help. The AFU could kill a million Russians and still not defeat them. Political pressure could easily force Ukraine into riskier tactical battles. Not good. The USA and NATO have to supply enough weapons, including aircraft, to force a breakout to the Azov Sea. That might be enough to force regime change in Moscow. 

 

Its worth noting?

 

 Zelensky, in his speech today, gave thanks to the US for traditional security provided historically to Europe. Called, essentially, for Europe to be capable of being an independent power base from America.  Both economically, and strategically (militarily), in case the US loses its foothold on reality. ie Trump wins. Although he mentioned believing they would survive this political storm.

 

Excellent that someone is taking a lead position in discussing what happens if?

 

1 hour ago, Honky Cat said:

 

 

That segment of the GOP would rather arm militia security guards in American High Schools? Provide cluster bombs instead of Ukraine, to rednecks those who would bomb courthouses, tax offices... Without saying, this will include security by Little Green Men Wagner Proud Boys at polling stations next year!  

 

To defend American 'democracy' of course!    

Edited October 6, 2023 by Canuck Surfer

[Muscatel Marauder]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

a US F-16 shot down a Turkish drone in Northeastern Syria today. It had been targetting Kurds and they requested assistance. Interesting.

 

Maybe they will invoke the NATO clause about a member being attacked?

 

Turkey wonders, with their human rights issues, least of which might not even be Kurds? Cypress is an issue, reporters being dismembered, and bagged up in a govt. office. Which is why they are not in the EU.  I commented on Ukraine joining.  Which I wish for!  Yet only if they meet the requirement standards, which include lack of corruption, human rights.  The same would be true of Turkey, I don't not wish for them to join.  They have not turned the corner to being a true international citizen yet. 

 

Yes there are Kurdish terrorists.  Which probably would not exist if 1/2 a Million Kurds (I am being conservative, generous) were not displaced? Extra judicial killings taking place, lack of representation, or free speech to minorities, etc., etc..

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Maybe they will invoke the NATO clause about a member being attacked?

 

Turkey wonders, with their human rights issues, least of which might not even be Kurds? Cypress is an issue, reporters being dismembered, and bagged up in a govt. office. Which is why they are not in the EU.  I commented on Ukraine joining.  Which I wish for!  Yet only if they meet the requirement standards, which include lack of corruption, human rights.  The same would be true of Turkey, I don't not wish for them to join.  They have not turned the corner to being a true international citizen yet. 

 

Yes there are Kurdish terrorists.  Which probably would not exist if 1/2 a Million Kurds (I am being conservative, generous) were not displaced? Extra judicial killings taking place, lack of representation, or free speech to minorities, etc., etc..

Erdogan would be no better than Orban is already.  No chance they get into the EU while he remains in power.

[Boudrias]

9 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Sad that they don't understand how great a deal the Ukrainians are giving the US by destroying Russia's military capability with no loss of American life.  As well as the right thing to do, supplying the needed weapons is an investment towards security in the future.

I am not terribly worried about loss of American support for Ukraine. Politics is coming into play there is little doubt. The public can be influenced by media. It does not change the geopolitical reality. Eliminating Russia as a serious adversary allows the USA and allies to focus on the China threat. The AFU are slowly destroying the Russian capacity to make war. In the process NATO is being forced to rearm. Many in the GOP resent the Euros for making the USA foot the biggest part of this cost. It is the Euros who stand to gain much more from the degradation of Russia's political and military influence. They should pay the bulk of this cost.

 

What is fascinating is the inevitable recasting of post conflict influence in Europe. Ukraine will join the EU and NATO. The real power in Europe is moving east to Poland and Ukraine who will have the 2 largest armies in Europe. I suspect Russia will implode and likely fall apart. Who stands to benefit most from this are Ukraine and Poland. What remains of Russia post communism is a vast territory that can be redeveloped with investment opportunities. At least this is how I hope events evolve.

 

Meanwhile Ukraine has a war to win. Time benefits Russian rearmament but the AFU will continue to acquire more modern armament including aircraft. Putin can draft millions but has to fund it. IMHO Ukraine can outstrip the equipment race and deal a serious blow to the occupiers. Ukraine can force the Russians out of their country and then accelerate their military and infrastructure rebuild. 

[JIAHN]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

I am not terribly worried about loss of American support for Ukraine. Politics is coming into play there is little doubt. The public can be influenced by media. It does not change the geopolitical reality. Eliminating Russia as a serious adversary allows the USA and allies to focus on the China threat. The AFU are slowly destroying the Russian capacity to make war. In the process NATO is being forced to rearm. Many in the GOP resent the Euros for making the USA foot the biggest part of this cost. It is the Euros who stand to gain much more from the degradation of Russia's political and military influence. They should pay the bulk of this cost.

 

What is fascinating is the inevitable recasting of post conflict influence in Europe. Ukraine will join the EU and NATO. The real power in Europe is moving east to Poland and Ukraine who will have the 2 largest armies in Europe. I suspect Russia will implode and likely fall apart. Who stands to benefit most from this are Ukraine and Poland. What remains of Russia post communism is a vast territory that can be redeveloped with investment opportunities. At least this is how I hope events evolve.

 

Meanwhile Ukraine has a war to win. Time benefits Russian rearmament but the AFU will continue to acquire more modern armament including aircraft. Putin can draft millions but has to fund it. IMHO Ukraine can outstrip the equipment race and deal a serious blow to the occupiers. Ukraine can force the Russians out of their country and then accelerate their military and infrastructure rebuild. 

 

Good Post! 

 

It does beg a question that I keep pondering, about NATO and the US, weapons complex. With the USA being the largest supplier of arms in western world, largely because of the quality of their weapons. It begs the question as to why GOP and Dems are having problems with their support. I mean, it is a large employer, and brings in billions into the US economy.

 

IMO, it is my belief that outside the far right, that most senators and congressmen, know that, there is long term and short term gains for the US, in that a weakened Russia allows them to focus on China, as it has been said many times.....it is a win, win, win, for the USA, IMO.

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

Good Post! 

 

It does beg a question that I keep pondering, about NATO and the US, weapons complex. With the USA being the largest supplier of arms in western world, largely because of the quality of their weapons. It begs the question as to why GOP and Dems are having problems with their support. I mean, it is a large employer, and brings in billions into the US economy.

 

IMO, it is my belief that outside the far right, that most senators and congressmen, know that, there is long term and short term gains for the US, in that a weakened Russia allows them to focus on China, as it has been said many times.....it is a win, win, win, for the USA, IMO.

What is the net net of your concern. Yes, the American weapons industry employs many and their military bases spin money into many communities. On the one hand people despise the USA but when confronted by adversaries like Russia they demand their aid. The reality that many Americans are faced with is not unlike those faced by Canadians they cannot rise above the costs of living they are forced to deal with. A big part of their tax bill goes to the USA military budget. So when Trump or his supporters complain about the +$50 billion in aid to Ukraine and the indirect subsidy of NATO because their allies don't meet treaty obligations on spending it resonates with many Americans. IMHO it should. That said I do think there is domestic USA politics at work here. The Trumpists are using this as a wedge issue to solidify their support. Does that mean loss of Ukraine aid? At the end of the day I don't think so. The majority is still with Ukraine. 

 

As an aside I do not understand the willingness of Canada to free load off the Americans on defense. It is a major national security issue. It undermines Canada's ability to conduct independent international policy. Canada will not escape the American wrath over this. As much as their foreign policy wants to see a weak Canada they will not look the other way without continuing their ongoing undermining of Canadian positions. As a country of + 40 million we are a laughing stock.   

[SilentSam]

14 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

What is the net net of your concern. Yes, the American weapons industry employs many and their military bases spin money into many communities. On the one hand people despise the USA but when confronted by adversaries like Russia they demand their aid. The reality that many Americans are faced with is not unlike those faced by Canadians they cannot rise above the costs of living they are forced to deal with. A big part of their tax bill goes to the USA military budget. So when Trump or his supporters complain about the +$50 billion in aid to Ukraine and the indirect subsidy of NATO because their allies don't meet treaty obligations on spending it resonates with many Americans. IMHO it should. That said I do think there is domestic USA politics at work here. The Trumpists are using this as a wedge issue to solidify their support. Does that mean loss of Ukraine aid? At the end of the day I don't think so. The majority is still with Ukraine. 

 

As an aside I do not understand the willingness of Canada to free load off the Americans on defense. It is a major national security issue. It undermines Canada's ability to conduct independent international policy. Canada will not escape the American wrath over this. As much as their foreign policy wants to see a weak Canada they will not look the other way without continuing their ongoing undermining of Canadian positions. As a country of + 40 million we are a laughing stock.   

I agree that we should do more ,

 

but as a Country of 40 million,  compared for the U.S. around 400 million that divide looks massive,.

but it is comparable.

 

Canada has committed and promised more than 8 billion dollars since February 2022.

 

 

What we are talented in is training , and highly regarded for it.

Those belonging to JTF2 are some of the best in the World.

 

I do think we could move a few F18 fighter jets out of our operational inventory of (63 CF-18A & 23 CF-18B

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boudrias]

4 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

I agree that we should do more ,

 

but as a Country of 40 million,  compared for the U.S. around 400 million that divide looks massive,.

but it is comparable.

 

Canada has committed and promised more than 8 billion dollars since February 2022.

 

 

What we are talented in is training , and highly regarded for it.

Those belonging to JTF2 are some of the best in the World.

 

I do think we could move a few F18 fighter jets out of our operational inventory of (63 CF-18A & 23 CF-18B

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately Sam most of those F18's cannot fly. Similar situation with the Leopards that don't run. To some extent I sympathize with the government's claim that taking Ukrainian refugees should count towards support for Ukraine. That said I question how much support they are getting once here. My grand daughter has a young Ukrainian girl of 10 in her class at school. She says this girl is really struggling as she does not speak English and is lost in school. She wants to go home to Ukraine but who knows if that will happen. So sad for them.  In my era it was the Hungarian kids who came to our school and they had a tough time as well. 

 

That bastard Putin killed over 100 Ukrainians yesterday by shelling a market and a funeral. My first question was who gave them the co-ordinates?