The Russia/Ukraine War Thread

[Satchmo]

Just now, SilentSam said:

your still thinking that I’m talking implementing THAT magnitude . 
im not .

 

Nuclear power is already used and exists in the smallest of arms.

Depleted Uranium is used projectiles as small as 30cal bullets for piercing armour plates,  also in protective armour to implode  bullets .

 

it goes on up from there and may even be presently used in areas on the front lines 

ATACMS 140 comes to mind.

 

 

 

used in anger ?

 

When you can ask that question to Putin and come back with an answer ,

I’ll give you mine .

I have no need to talk to Putin.  I'm talking to you.  

[SilentSam]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I have no need to talk to Putin.  I'm talking to you.  

I didn’t start a war , he did .

 

I want to see it stop.

 

you seem to be enjoying the news here.

Edited July 30 by SilentSam

[Satchmo]

Just now, SilentSam said:

I didn’t start a war , he did .

 

I want to see it stop.

I want it stopped as much or more than you do.

 

I just think any idea that it should or could be stopped with tactical nuclear weapons or with intercontinental weapons is a truly bad and shortsighted idea.   

[Bob Long]

44 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

well a large one did in Japan ,

and that was what it was meant to do.

Bring Peace .

it also brought democracy to a nation.. (Japan).

 

 

im not saying the extent or magnitude of that was right.

But a quick solution to a war mongering country or aggressor with no need to control another country, countries , or the world , is the nuclear “deterrent “.

 

NATO was designed to disarm the world from that .      

 

Only one country  ,  RuZ , constantly threatens with it .  
 

Putin had his opportunity, and still does to be part of that process (NATO)..  but he aggressively declined in the 90’s .

 

Hes still here trying to conquer and recapture a fictitious empire on a fantasy map.

Today , he dividing and disrupting other nations, INCLUDING OURS , to weaken Democracies .

 

In this moment He is raping , pillaging, burning, moving borders on a sovereign nation ..  Reducing cities to that of a Nuclear holocaust.  ( look up Bahkmut)

 

im not ok with that.

 

    It needs to stop .    

  Deterence is necessary in one form or another.

 

      Otherwise inaction ,

or not stopping it is aiding and abedding.

 

You don’t seem like you want to take action Bob.

 

         This “Long” game is far too slow .

 

600,000 RuZ troops dead is oncoming soon..

 

 possibly 100, - 200, 000 innocent civilians and troops from UKR .

 

            But the gravest mistake will come from letting the Orc/ Natzi / Dictator mindset survive another War ,

where are predecessors,   in hind site realized they made the mistake of not following into RuZ and offering greater assistance to them and opening peaceful doors in the process.

 

This inaction will far outlive our lives ,

it will continue on to what ever length it threatens with,  on into your children’s lives and livelihood, and your grandchildrens.

 

im not trying to fear monger Bob ,

 

im a realist ..   and history teaches us what was real ,  allowing us to see it.

 

            Pacifism is not the answer with a PROVEN aggressor who will continue on untill his death .

            If he LIVES to die a natural death ,  his legacy will be handed off to another.

 

Hitler > Stalin > Lenin > Putin > ?

 

                 

 

 

 

 

I've supported defending Ukraine from the beginning .

[SilentSam]

18 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I want it stopped as much or more than you do.

 

I just think any idea that it should or could be stopped with tactical nuclear weapons or with intercontinental weapons is a truly bad and shortsighted idea.   

thats a false statement.… your wrong.

 

 

because I make a stance to aggression does not mean I dislike Peace.

 

Those that understand War and Aggression,  Understand what true Peace is ,  and theyre willing to defend that.

      it’s starts by making a stance.

 

I’ve been watching this war / aggression for 4 years were it escalated in Crimea.

 

I want it stopped..  long before the 3 day “SMExercise”. That fucking bastard implemented on a Democratic country ,.

Like Canada.

 

nuclear power is already engaged.

 

to WHAT MAGNITUDE escalates to is unknown.

IF a mitigated nuclear weapon like ATACMS is used to take out Putin ..  him directly.

im for that .

THEN the likelihood of PUTIN using one on MASSE is gone.

        

       That will put a stop to the War,

and then the doors to World Peace will open through the help the West can offer Russia.

This after effect of a war ending is what should have happened when Stalin was alive,.  But the west realized the atrocities he had committed in his Empire, and the west decided to stand down to rebuild itself.

 

 

Edited July 30 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

Up !!

 

could be !!

 

 

 

 

[SilentSam]

Trojan Jack Ass ..  anything to help Putin.

 

 

 

 

[SilentSam]

again , getting away with murder and disruption aiding RuZ to operate they way it wants when this IS A WAR IN PROGRESS.

Orban is an ALLIE OF PUTINS .

 

How obvious does this need to be?

 

letting in the Saboteurs to migrate through the EU and North & South America..

 

     Something needs to happen,  

 

 

[Satchmo]

13 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

thats a false statement.… your wrong.

 

 

because I make a stance to aggression does not mean I dislike Peace.

 

Those that understand War and Aggression,  Understand what true Peace is ,  and theyre willing to defend that.

      it’s starts by making a stance.

 

I’ve been watching this war / aggression for 4 years were it escalated in Crimea.

 

I want it stopped..  long before the 3 day “SMExercise”. That fucking bastard implemented on a Democratic country ,.

Like Canada.

 

nuclear power is already engaged.

 

to WHAT MAGNITUDE escalates to is unknown.

IF a mitigated nuclear weapon like ATACMS is used to take out Putin ..  him directly.

im for that .

THEN the likelihood of PUTIN using one on MASSE is gone.

        

       That will put a stop to the War,

and then the doors to World Peace will open through the help the West can offer Russia.

This after effect of a war ending is what should have happened when Stalin was alive,.  But the west realized the atrocities he had committed in his Empire, and the west decided to stand down to rebuild itself.

 

 

You may not agree what I think but to call it false makes no sense.  Call it wrong if you wish - I am calling you wrong after all.

 

I am not arguing which of the two of us keeps closer attention to this conflict (we both follow pretty closely), or which of us most wants it to stop (probably a tie but very hard to adjudicate), or who started paying attention to it the earliest (again, probably  tie). None of these things matter at all in a discussion of the use of nuclear arms.

 

 Why do you feel you can predict what would happen if a tactical nuke took out Putin?  It could go many ways.  Why are you so sure it would go the way you predict and it would bring an immediate end to hostilities?

 

 

[SilentSam]

8 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

You may not agree what I think but to call it false makes no sense.  Call it wrong if you wish - I am calling you wrong after all.

 

I am not arguing which of the two of us keeps closer attention to this conflict (we both follow pretty closely), or which of us most wants it to stop (probably a tie but very hard to adjudicate), or who started paying attention to it the earliest (again, probably  tie). None of these things matter at all in a discussion of the use of nuclear arms.

 

 Why do you feel you can predict what would happen if a tactical nuke took out Putin?  It could go many ways.  Why are you so sure it would go the way you predict and it would bring an immediate end to hostilities?

 

 

 

Historically ,  when Regimes fall,  whether it be by a death of one,  or the forceful will of the people who have been oppressed.

 

the Millitary and Police securities surrender, flee,  or swap sides.

 

Watch what’s happening in Venezuela right now.

Perhaps The difference between RuZ and VEZ right now IS THE PEOPLE.

 

    But I beleive , as do Russian Soldiers of Freedom and Partisans with them that their are Russian citizens that would seize on to a moment of change and walk it through aggressively.

We may have seen it when Prigozian marched back toward Moscow ,.  He was greeted with support and open arms in Belograd.

Had Prigo stayed their for 14 days I think he could have a massed a true “change of power “.

I don’t think he could have established much better for government, just because of his own misgivings with Wagner.

 But ..  the twinkle of a new freedom was in the eyes of those citizens in Belograd.

 

An example:

 

 

The problem is Putin has his citizens locked in to his own propaganda, exactly the same as how Josef Goeble operated the NATZI regime.

Goeble was the CREATOR of the false and wrongful hatred of the Jewish people .

that is the power of propaganda,  the lies live on for generations.

 

If any Russian citizens were to see what is happening in Venezuela with Maduro being thrown out ..

That would leave more hope in the hearts of the Russian people.

       But many won’t see it, and stay living oppressed.

                      

Putin is a Spider ,  not unlike “Spectre” in the last few Bond movies.

Yes the story is written for entertainment.

 

But this character is true , alive, and living.

 

          
A tactical nuke targeting Putin to absolutely vaporize Putin with minimal to no civilian casualties.. 

( im thinking his palace, or imploding the Kremlin in one shot)

   Has the best chance of changing the mindset that will be left to created a true democracy for itself.

 

Putin will not stop untill he is dead,  whether by natural age,  or execution of one Op.

                  If he goes naturally he hands off to a similar type , and everything we are seeing in the World caused by his disruptions and alliances as a Terrorist ,

    Will continue on.

 

 

 

[Satchmo]

Just now, SilentSam said:

 

Historically ,  when Regimes fall,  whether it be by a death of one,  or the forceful will of the people who have been oppressed.

 

the Millitary and Police securities surrender, flee,  or swap sides.

 

Watch what’s happening in Venezuela right now.

Perhaps The difference between RuZ and VEZ right now IS THE PEOPLE.

 

    But I beleive , as do Russian Soldiers of Freedom and Partisans with them that their are Russian citizens that would seize on to a moment of change and walk it through aggressively.

We may have seen it when Prigozian marched back toward Moscow ,.  He was greeted with support and open arms in Belograd.

Had Prigo stayed their for 14 days I think he could have a massed a true “change of power “.

I don’t think he could have established much better for government, just because of his own misgivings with Wagner.

 But ..  the twinkle of a new freedom was in the eyes of those citizens in Belograd.

 

An example:

 

 

The problem is Putin has his citizens locked in to his own propaganda, exactly the same as how Josef Goeble operated the NATZI regime.

Goeble was the CREATOR of the false and wrongful hatred of the Jewish people .

that is the power of propaganda,  the lies live on for generations.

 

If any Russian citizens were to see what is happening in Venezuela with Maduro being thrown out ..

That would leave more hope in the hearts of the Russian people.

       But many won’t see it, and stay living oppressed.

                      

Putin is a Spider ,  not unlike “Spectre” in the last few Bond movies.

Yes the story is written for entertainment.

 

But this character is true , alive, and living.

 

          
A tactical nuke targeting Putin to absolutely vaporize Putin with minimal to no civilian casualties.. 

( im thinking his palace, or imploding the Kremlin in one shot)

   Has the best chance of changing the mindset that will be left to created a true democracy for itself.

 

Putin will not stop untill he is dead,  whether by natural age,  or execution of one Op.

                  If he goes naturally he hands off to a similar type , and everything we are seeing in the World caused by his disruptions and alliances as a Terrorist ,

    Will continue on.

 

 

 

I still disagree with your plan.  It seems all we agree on is a shared hatred for Putin and a hope hostilities will end.  

 

If you are so sure a nuke to Putin will end things, please explain the logistics as to how it will be done.  Not just how you hope it would be done, but a clear, concise, and absolutely fool proof plan to make it happen and have it lead to peace as opposed to increased hostilities.   No real point of blowing up the Kremlin or his palace if he is not there.  No real proof that the Russian people would rise up if it happened  They could just as easily just get more pissed and resolute.

 

I can't help but be an analytical guy.  I was born that way and then turned it into a profession.  Retirement has not changed my way of thinking.  I'm afraid when I look at the possible outcomes of the assassination of Putin by any means (as wonderful as that sounds) I see no guarantee of peace.  If nukes are used in that assassination I see even less of a chance.

 

Actually, feel free to not bother replying.   We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

 

[SilentSam]

18 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I still disagree with your plan.  It seems all we agree on is a shared hatred for Putin and a hope hostilities will end.  

 

If you are so sure a nuke to Putin will end things, please explain the logistics as to how it will be done.  Not just how you hope it would be done, but a clear, concise, and absolutely fool proof plan to make it happen and have it lead to peace as opposed to increased hostilities.   No real point of blowing up the Kremlin or his palace if he is not there.  No real proof that the Russian people would rise up if it happened  They could just as easily just get more pissed and resolute.

 

I can't help but be an analytical guy.  I was born that way and then turned it into a profession.  Retirement has not changed my way of thinking.  I'm afraid when I look at the possible outcomes of the assassination of Putin by any means (as wonderful as that sounds) I see no guarantee of peace.  If nukes are used in that assassination I see even less of a chance.

 

Actually, feel free to not bother replying.   We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

 

 

Again your opinion ,  

  VS how I have already stated what should happen ..

obviously, you have no plan of your own..

and a willingness to compromise mord civilian death in Democracy of actual citizens living in a Free Country by just letting it play out in Defence .

That “aids” and “enables” RuZ to continue.

 

This is not a front line war,.  
Yet you seem happy to handcuff UKR to those rules of engagement,. And let RuZ Bomb UKR freely.

     That seems to be your “stance”,. 
a term I’ll use loosely.

 

Perhaps you should feel free not to bother replying to anything I post .

Im sure “MoneyBall” is as real as life gets.

     Enjoy your Tea.

 

 

 

 

Just As soon as a Dictator is ousted..

greater free minds rise to greet history in the making…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gurn]

 

[Satchmo]

I find your questioning of my morals questionable.   Just because you choose to sit on a high horse does not increase the acuity of your vision.

 

My plan?  Did I ever imply I had one for this complex situation?   All I'm saying is nukes should not be part of any plan.

 

Enjoy your tea as well. 

[Boudrias]

2 hours ago, SilentSam said:

thats a false statement.… your wrong.

 

 

because I make a stance to aggression does not mean I dislike Peace.

 

Those that understand War and Aggression,  Understand what true Peace is ,  and theyre willing to defend that.

      it’s starts by making a stance.

 

I’ve been watching this war / aggression for 4 years were it escalated in Crimea.

 

I want it stopped..  long before the 3 day “SMExercise”. That fucking bastard implemented on a Democratic country ,.

Like Canada.

 

nuclear power is already engaged.

 

to WHAT MAGNITUDE escalates to is unknown.

IF a mitigated nuclear weapon like ATACMS is used to take out Putin ..  him directly.

im for that .

THEN the likelihood of PUTIN using one on MASSE is gone.

        

       That will put a stop to the War,

and then the doors to World Peace will open through the help the West can offer Russia.

This after effect of a war ending is what should have happened when Stalin was alive,.  But the west realized the atrocities he had committed in his Empire, and the west decided to stand down to rebuild itself.

 

 

The standard reaction by the Russians on news they don't like is a nuclear threat. Their nuke threat should be called. The best way to do that Is providing the AFU with the weapons to destroy the invaders. Even that is not near enough. Ukrainian dead and wounded is in the 100's of thousands. Their country has been destroyed by the Russians. NATO should have established a timeline for Russia's exit from Ukraine but did not. Westerners were willing to sacrifice the country of Ukraine in fear of a Russian paper tiger. Their intelligence might have been weak in 2022 prior to the invasion but they now know how bad the Russian military actually is. Yet, the F-16's aren't in Ukraine yet and promised supplies often do not show up. Civilians are killed daily. No eviction notice of substance has been issued to the Russians. Advanced weaponry works well when put in the hands of the Ukrainians but they don't get near enough for the job. The west wants the Ukrainians and the Israelis for that matter to fight modern war with one arm tied behind their backs. The Allied armies of WW2 showed little mercy when it came to killing nazis. They understood the willingness and capabilities of the German army and they knew what they had to do to stop them. 

[Satchmo]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

The standard reaction by the Russians on news they don't like is a nuclear threat. Their nuke threat should be called. The best way to do that Is providing the AFU with the weapons to destroy the invaders. Even that is not near enough. Ukrainian dead and wounded is in the 100's of thousands. Their country has been destroyed by the Russians. NATO should have established a timeline for Russia's exit from Ukraine but did not. Westerners were willing to sacrifice the country of Ukraine in fear of a Russian paper tiger. Their intelligence might have been weak in 2022 prior to the invasion but they now know how bad the Russian military actually is. Yet, the F-16's aren't in Ukraine yet and promised supplies often do not show up. Civilians are killed daily. No eviction notice of substance has been issued to the Russians. Advanced weaponry works well when put in the hands of the Ukrainians but they don't get near enough for the job. The west wants the Ukrainians and the Israelis for that matter to fight modern war with one arm tied behind their backs. The Allied armies of WW2 showed little mercy when it came to killing nazis. They understood the willingness and capabilities of the German army and they knew what they had to do to stop them. 

Are you too proposing nukes Bouds?   Russian military weakness aside, what do you think will be the global geopolitical repercussions for the next country to use nukes?

 

People seem to be thinking about 'the day' and ignoring 'the day after'.

 

EDIT - I keep forgetting I'm so much older than most.  'The Day After' was a tv movie in the 80's that scared the willies out of America.  It was about the day after a nuclear strike.

 

Effects on policymakers

After seeing the film, Ronald Reagan wrote that the film had been very effective and left him depressed.

US President Ronald Reagan watched the film more than a month before its screening on Columbus Day, October 10, 1983.[30] He wrote in his diary that the film was "very effective and left me greatly depressed"[31][27] and that it changed his mind on the prevailing policy on a "nuclear war".[32] The film was also screened for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. A government advisor who attended the screening, a friend of Meyer, told him: "If you wanted to draw blood, you did it. Those guys sat there like they were turned to stone."[27] In 1987, Reagan and Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev signed the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which resulted in the banning and reducing of their nuclear arsenal. In Reagan's memoirs, he drew a direct line from the film to the signing.[27] Reagan supposedly later sent Meyer a telegram after the summit: "Don't think your movie didn't have any part of this, because it did."[10] During an interview in 2010, Meyer said that the telegram was a myth and that the sentiment stemmed from a friend's letter to Meyer. He suggested the story had origins in editing notes received from the White House during the production, which "may have been a joke, but it wouldn't surprise me, him being an old Hollywood guy."[27] There is also an apocryphal story which claims that, after seeing the film, Ronald Reagan said: "That will not happen on my watch."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_After

 

 

Edited July 30 by Satchmo

[Boudrias]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Are you too proposing nukes Bouds?   Russian military weakness aside, what do you think will be the global geopolitical repercussions for the next country to use nukes?

 

People seem to be thinking about 'the day' and ignoring 'the day after'.

Only as a last resort should nukes be used. There are tactical nuke weapons now. My main concern is the level of conventional support provided to the Ukrainians over the past 2 years. As I have said many times the west should have given Putin a timeline to get out of Ukraine on risk of NATO troops being sent in on an escalating basis. That has not happened and shame on the west for that. The standard refrain is NATO is purely a defensive arrangement. If that is the hold up then change the treaty or have the key members act unilaterally. This is a political decision. It didn't seem to stop them in Afganistan. If Putin is not dealt with in a resolute way the chances of nukes being used eventually simply increases. If not Putin then Xi or the mullahs in Iran or the little fat guy in North Korea. 

[Satchmo]

Just now, Boudrias said:

Only as a last resort should nukes be used. There are tactical nuke weapons now. My main concern is the level of conventional support provided to the Ukrainians over the past 2 years. As I have said many times the west should have given Putin a timeline to get out of Ukraine on risk of NATO troops being sent in on an escalating basis. That has not happened and shame on the west for that. The standard refrain is NATO is purely a defensive arrangement. If that is the hold up then change the treaty or have the key members act unilaterally. This is a political decision. It didn't seem to stop them in Afganistan. If Putin is not dealt with in a resolute way the chances of nukes being used eventually simply increases. If not Putin then Xi or the mullahs in Iran or the little fat guy in North Korea. 

Yes, NATO could have, and should have, done more.

 

Your argument for the use of nukes almost seems to be if 'we' don't do it someone else will.   Either that or that it's not possible a dead Putin could be replaced by someone worse. I don't buy either one.

 

(And I notice my question went unanswered.  I mention it again because I think it's a question worth considering.)

 

And yes, in case no one has noticed, I am steadfastly against the use of nukes and it's virtually impossible anyone will change my mind on this.  Do not take this to mean I am not fully opposed to Putin and his cronies, or not in full support of Ukraine in its' efforts to regain what is rightfully theirs and to save its' people from death and oppression.

[SilentSam]

       

 

 

 

[SilentSam]

40 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Yes, NATO could have, and should have, done more.

 

Your argument for the use of nukes almost seems to be if 'we' don't do it someone else will.   Either that or that it's not possible a dead Putin could be replaced by someone worse. I don't buy either one.

 

(And I notice my question went unanswered.  I mention it again because I think it's a question worth considering.)

 

And yes, in case no one has noticed, I am steadfastly against the use of nukes and it's virtually impossible anyone will change my mind on this.  Do not take this to mean I am not fully opposed to Putin and his cronies, or not in full support of Ukraine in its' efforts to regain what is rightfully theirs and to save its' people from death and oppression.

thermobaric

 

 

Edited July 30 by SilentSam

[Gurn]

Dang- never understood why people will stop, that close to a fire, likely full of chemicals, and carcinogens.

- take a pic as you are going away from the fire.

One quick change in wind direction and your lungs could be ruined for the rest of your life.

[SilentSam]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Dang- never understood why people will stop, that close to a fire, likely full of chemicals, and carcinogens.

- take a pic as you are going away from the fire.

One quick change in wind direction and your lungs could be ruined for the rest of your life.

Trust this..  Putin built that Rocket/ missile / milia plant right in the heart of populated Civilian infrastructures so that it would deter a strike like this.

 

pin point accuracy,  lethal weapons , on high valued targets ,  including Putin himself , is what’s needed.

 
 

 

 

[SilentSam]

New alliances like this would be waiting for RuZ if it had the moral courage to topple Putins regime .

 

Peace ,   and stabilization  Will never come in his empire as long in that Regime lives and operates.

 

Thing of beauty in Venezuela.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

The wicked web of the “Spyder” lol

 

 

 

 

[SilentSam]

Hungarian FM Szijjártó is desperate and becomes impatient.

He detailed his anger in a post on Facebook.

“More than a week has now passed since we, together with Slovakia, initiated the action of the European Commission against Ukraine due to the ban on oil shipments. More than a week has passed and the European Commission has done nothing. Despite endangering the energy security of two EU member states, despite the crystal clear violation of the EU-Ukraine association agreement, Brussels remains silent. 

There are two reasons possible:

1. The European Commission is so weak that it is unable to enforce the fundamental interests of two member states against a candidate member. 

2. The whole thing was invented not in Kyiv, but in Brussels, and not the Ukrainian government, but the European Commission, wanted to blackmail the two pro-peace countries that refused arms shipments. 

The European Commission and personally President Ursula von der Leyen must immediately testify: Did they ask Brussels to ban oil deliveries from Kyiv? 
And if not, why didn't the European Commission take any action in more than a week?” he wrote on Facebook. 

Hungary did not reach out only to Brussels in an effort to resolve the issue.
Szijjarto said he held a phone call with his Russian and Slovak counterparts, Sergey Lavrov and Juraj Blanar, on July 29 over the "Ukrainian transit ban."

"I remain firm in the position that Ukraine violates the EU association agreement by endangering our energy security... we are constantly analyzing possible legal and technical solutions to ensure the continuation of our oil supplies," he said on Facebook.

President Volodymyr Zelensky's Office told Reuters that the ban on the Lukoil transit was imposed in accordance with sanctions against the company and "has nothing to do with blackmail."

The EU in 2022 passed sanctions on the import of Russian oil into the bloc in response to the launch of the war, though an exception was granted to land-locked Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic to allow them time to find other crude sources. Instead Hungary and Slovakia increased their oil deliveries from Russia. 

Time is up!