[Poll] Do we even want the Canucks to win the Presidents Trophy

[WHL rocks]

11 hours ago, Goalie29 said:

Since the lockout / salary cap (18 seasons) the President's Trophy winner has:

• Won the Stanley Cup twice
• Lost in the SCF once
• Lost the Conference finals twice
• Lost in the second round seven times
• Lost in the first six times

That's pretty good.

 

I'll take the President's Trophy 100%

 

2 Cups in 18 years. That's probably the best percentage out of any other ranking. 

[Coconuts]

Been there, done that, don't care

[IBatch]

Like WTF.   Of course we do.   That means we had a great season.    The cup is the goal, but don't worry about what's happened in the past in that way.   A lot of top teams, or close to top teams, have won the cup.   We aren't LA.   As in a middling at best regular season team.   We are a top team right now.   That's a positive. 

[Goalie29]

20 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

That's pretty good.

 

I'll take the President's Trophy 100%

 

2 Cups in 18 years. That's probably the best percentage out of any other ranking. 

 

It boils down to one in nine.  Sixteen teams make the playoffs, so every team starts with a one in sixteen chance.  So it seems it is a slight advantage to enter the playoffs as the top seed.  And I think that's what it's really all about.  Not the trophy, but the top seed and home ice advantage.

 

The odds are different if you go before the salary cap, but that was an era where teams could spend without restriction to win.  That's why I didn't count those years.

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

Do we even want the Canucks to win the Presidents trophy

 

It is kind of bad luck maybe give it to Boston. It be sweet if Boston won it and was knocked out in the 1st round again and the Canucks 
 

 

 

 

Be careful, for what you wish for, so far Canucks in the toilet no? 

[DSVII]

Nah.

 

Team is locked into the next game, focus on the next game rather than this. I still remember those "Do we want to throw game 6 to win the cup in Vancouver" posts in 2011.

 

Nothing matters but the end goal.

[The Lock]

I voted for "just make the playoffs" but "I don't care" could also fit with my view.

 

I don't believe in a curse with the president's trophy. I just think winning the cup has very little to do with the regular season and everything to do with playoff performance, luck, depth, and how many injuries a team receives throughout.

[The Lock]

12 hours ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

That sound like a curse 

 

Thanks for doing the home work

 

2 cups out of 18 means you effectively have just under double the chance of winning the cup compared to the other 15 playoff slots.

 

How is that a curse exactly when it means you have higher odds than everyone else? It only takes a president's trophy winner 1 point to be above the number 2 team. That hardly screams domination every time a team comes in 1st to begin with.

Edited January 25 by The Lock

[Ghostsof1915]

49 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

That's pretty good.

 

I'll take the President's Trophy 100%

 

2 Cups in 18 years. That's probably the best percentage out of any other ranking. 

First and second round exits total 13 of the 18 seasons. Rick is good so far with managing fatigue. So hopefully regardless where we end up, the team is healthy going into the playoffs.

[OldFaithfulcap]

Don't really care, but home ice would be nice. I'd be happier being 2nd/3rd and getting home ice due to upsets.

[The Lock]

Just now, Ghostsof1915 said:

First and second round exits total 13 of the 18 seasons. Rick is good so far with managing fatigue. So hopefully regardless where we end up, the team is healthy going into the playoffs.

 

The fact that we're having this discussion should be amazing enough. lol

 

While a lot can happen between now and the playoffs, right now it looks like we have a legitimate chance at the cup. That notion alone is the opposite of the last couple of seasons for us but here we are.

[BCNeil]

yes.  Game 7 at home, no matter who we play, in all rounds.  

[WHL rocks]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

First and second round exits total 13 of the 18 seasons. Rick is good so far with managing fatigue. So hopefully regardless where we end up, the team is healthy going into the playoffs.

Some very good teams will get knocked out n the 1st team.

 

We might be one of them..

 

BOS was out in 1st round last year. 

 

Right now WPG and EDM are playing the type of hockey that any team is going to have a hard time getting past. They're defensive juggernauts. Both their goalies are playing Vezina level hockey and it's just so hard to score against them..

 

Hopefully we get a good matchup vs a team like NSH or ARZ and get past the 1st round. After that anything can happen.

[canuck73]

Home ice baby

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

5 hours ago, The Lock said:

 

2 cups out of 18 means you effectively have just under double the chance of winning the cup compared to the other 15 playoff slots.

 

How is that a curse exactly when it means you have higher odds than everyone else? It only takes a president's trophy winner 1 point to be above the number 2 team. That hardly screams domination every time a team comes in 1st to begin with.

But shouldn't the odds of the best team in the league be better than Idk the 15th or 16th best team

 

I think the Vegas odds makers would agree with me

 

Seriously though do people actually believe that all teams that make the playoffs have the same odds as ever other team that makes the playoffs of winning the cup.

 

Let me put this in an example, if the league had all 32 teams in the league make the playoffs do you really believe the SJS have the same odds of winning the cup than the Canucks do this year.

 

16 teams is an arbitrarily number that evenly divides by 2 every round that's why it is used. It is not a special number in mathematical odds that gives each team the same odds of winning the cup

Edited January 26 by Tocchet.A.Hockey.God

[Miss Korea]

5 hours ago, DSVII said:

Nah.

 

Team is locked into the next game, focus on the next game rather than this. I still remember those "Do we want to throw game 6 to win the cup in Vancouver" posts in 2011.

 

Nothing matters but the end goal.

 

Alright, but you're almost suggesting we throw games in the regular season to win in the playoffs.  I don't think that's how hockey/sports works.

 

If nothing matters but the end goal, I guess fans should just skip the regular season entirely.  See you in April, then.

 

@Tocchet.A.Hockey.God It really is prompts like these that make me question whether you really played competitive hockey or not.  Do you think last year Bergeron was thinking, "Gee, I really wish we lost more games in the regular season"? 

 

Who benefits the most from winning the regular season?  The fans.  There isn't a single Canucks fan right now who would rather see their team lose.  There isn't a single player on that team that would rather see their team lose.

 

Even if we win the President's Trophy and get turfed in round one, you are trying to make a connection that simply doesn't exist.  Does an early exit taint the President's Trophy?  Yes.  Does it make one regret winning it?  What kind of question is that?

[tas]

yes, you want to win the president's trophy. not aiming to be the absolute best is loser behaviour. 

 

do you get upset if you don't get if? definitely not. 

[Sativika]

26 minutes ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

But shouldn't the odds of the best team in the league be better than Idk the 15th or 16th best team

 

I think the Vegas odds makers would agree with me

 

Seriously though do people actually believe that all teams that make the playoffs have the same odds as ever other team that makes the playoffs of winning the cup.

 

Let me put this in an example, if the league had all 32 teams in the league make the playoffs do you really believe the SJS have the same odds of winning the cup than the Canucks do this year.

 

16 teams is an arbitrarily number that evenly divides by 2 every round that's why it is used. It is not a special number in mathematical odds that gives each team the same odds of winning the cup

 

Hmmmm....I'm getting a headache. Odds and such mathematical things confuse me. So with that. I'll keep it plain and simple.

 

Sure. Why not. Home ice throughout the playoffs is advantageous. We've played well at home. Not to mention, we've played well on the road too. But.......

 

I like our chances, Pres' trophy or not!

 

Go Canucks Go!!!!!

[The Lock]

4 hours ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

But shouldn't the odds of the best team in the league be better than Idk the 15th or 16th best team

 

I think the Vegas odds makers would agree with me

 

Seriously though do people actually believe that all teams that make the playoffs have the same odds as ever other team that makes the playoffs of winning the cup.

 

Let me put this in an example, if the league had all 32 teams in the league make the playoffs do you really believe the SJS have the same odds of winning the cup than the Canucks do this year.

 

16 teams is an arbitrarily number that evenly divides by 2 every round that's why it is used. It is not a special number in mathematical odds that gives each team the same odds of winning the cup

 

In theory, the 1st place team will have better odds and has proven to have better odds given that 2 1st place teams won over the past 18 years.

 

That's why I say I don't believe in some curse that comes about from winning the Presidents' trophy as the odds are still in favour of them winning. There just happens to also be a lot of parity around the league, meaning the 16th place team isn't always as far down as is may seem.

 

Also, consider the fact that a lot of teams that just made the playoffs are coming off of momentum from them competing for those last playoff spots. I think that's why we see a reasonable high odd of the 1st place team losing in the 1st round.

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

 

In theory, the 1st place team will have better odds and has proven to have better odds given that 2 1st place teams won over the past 18 years.

 

That's why I say I don't believe in some curse that comes about from winning the Presidents' trophy as the odds are still in favour of them winning. There just happens to also be a lot of parity around the league, meaning the 16th place team isn't always as far down as is may seem.

 

Also, consider the fact that a lot of teams that just made the playoffs are coming off of momentum from them competing for those last playoff spots. I think that's why we see a reasonable high odd of the 1st place team losing in the 1st round.

Check out my other thread on stats of cup winners the odds don't say that at all. The first place team has the same odds of 2nd through 8th. There is no curse. Also first place teams more often beat their opponent in the first round

[The Lock]

4 minutes ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

Check out my other thread on stats of cup winners the odds don't say that at all. The first place team has the same odds of 2nd through 8th. There is no curse. Also first place teams more often beat their opponent in the first round

 

I'd need to look at those stats further to see if they're actually useful or not. No offense as I appreciate people digging into this stuff, but the biggest thing that matters is context and whether or not the stats are being used in a useful way.

 

Also, you really should have just brought those stats over to this thread...

Edited January 26 by The Lock

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

 

I'd need to look at those stats further to see if they're actually useful or not. No offense as I appreciate people digging into this stuff, but the biggest thing that matters is context and whether or not the stats are being used in a useful way.

 

Also, you really should have just brought those stats over to this thread...

Personally it thought the two threads where different this was just curiosity to see in a poll if people cared about being first in the league. The other tread was meant for a deep dive into actual odds historically what the really likely hood of them winning a cup.

 

I would honestly love to see if you could refute my stats it would show if i made a mistake somewhere ( not likely though). Keep in mind I am doing it by historical odds and not mathematical odds. I haven't crunch numbers on goal differential or how special teams factor or the multitude of other stats. I wasn't about to right a probability thesis on it. That kind of Thread would probably go over about 99.999999% of people's heads.

[coolboarder]

I don't mind if we win president trophy for as long as we still playing good hockey down the stretch.  Tough opponents with teams in playoff race is a good indicator of playoff readiness.  Also it guarantee us of a home ice advantage throughout the playoffs and the Final without worrying about being on road for first two games in any series.  It gives us peace of mind, for sure.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Alright, but you're almost suggesting we throw games in the regular season to win in the playoffs.  I don't think that's how hockey/sports works.

 

If nothing matters but the end goal, I guess fans should just skip the regular season entirely.  See you in April, then.

 

@Tocchet.A.Hockey.God It really is prompts like these that make me question whether you really played competitive hockey or not.  Do you think last year Bergeron was thinking, "Gee, I really wish we lost more games in the regular season"? 

 

Who benefits the most from winning the regular season?  The fans.  There isn't a single Canucks fan right now who would rather see their team lose.  There isn't a single player on that team that would rather see their team lose.

 

Even if we win the President's Trophy and get turfed in round one, you are trying to make a connection that simply doesn't exist.  Does an early exit taint the President's Trophy?  Yes.  Does it make one regret winning it?  What kind of question is that?

Often the way he's expressing himself, it's like he's just realizing things for the first time and wants to share.   That adds to the ?! marks.   Given they are things you'd hope the average hockey fan has a grasp on, let alone a player!  Captain Obvious things, down to taking such a brutally bizzare position against Tochett given every expert would say we've past the far achievement  ... winning a wild card spot would have been considered a win this year.    Given our roster.      Tochett is a master level coach so far.   Haven't seen this often in my lifetime.   Makes a decent at best, team great?   Wow. 

 

Don't they talk about hockey?     And live the recent history growing up in the sport?    Idolize and try and emulate a hockey hero or two?.   Guess maybe too much hockey, not enough school.    Can fix dumb sometimes . 

14 hours ago, The Lock said:

I voted for "just make the playoffs" but "I don't care" could also fit with my view.

 

I don't believe in a curse with the president's trophy. I just think winning the cup has very little to do with the regular season and everything to do with playoff performance, luck, depth, and how many injuries a team receives throughout.

Yep.  And some teams (LA's, Bostons, ANA's, CAR's, PIT) are built in a  way that they are better teams in the post season, then on paper.    LA especially, Boston too though, ANA used intimidation as a tactic, way scarier then Chara's goon squad, although Thorton was on both teams...Rod the Bod's teams... PIT created the need for speed speed speed at the draft table, possesion was out, counter-attack in.    Goofy since, well maybe having a Malkin and Crosby had something to do with that, but their supporting cast was speed related.    Some teams are even better.   And there are usually reasons for it.   Context matters for sure. 

Edited January 26 by IBatch

[Miss Korea]

55 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Often the way he's expressing himself, it's like he's just realizing things for the first time and wants to share.   That adds to the ?! marks.   Given they are things you'd hope the average hockey fan has a grasp on, let alone a player!  Captain Obvious things, down to taking such a brutally bizzare position against Tochett given every expert would say we've past the far achievement  ... winning a wild card spot would have been considered a win this year.    Given our roster.      Tochett is a master level coach so far.   Haven't seen this often in my lifetime.   Makes a decent at best, team great?   Wow. 

 

Don't they talk about hockey?     And live the recent history growing up in the sport?    Idolize and try and emulate a hockey hero or two?.   Guess maybe too much hockey, not enough school.    Can fix dumb sometimes . 

Yep.  And some teams (LA's, Bostons, ANA's, CAR's, PIT) are built in a  way that they are better teams in the post season, then on paper.    LA especially, Boston too though, ANA used intimidation as a tactic, way scarier then Chara's goon squad, although Thorton was on both teams...Rod the Bod's teams... PIT created the need for speed speed speed at the draft table, possesion was out, counter-attack in.    Goofy since, well maybe having a Malkin and Crosby had something to do with that, but their supporting cast was speed related.    Some teams are even better.   And there are usually reasons for it.   Context matters for sure. 

 

The whole premise of this topic was so absurd, it necessitated the OP to pivot and make a new post focused on probability.

 

"Hey fans, do you want to see your team lose more?  Do you want our team be in 1st place or 2nd place?"

 

This is what kinda bothers me about the sports system here in North America.  It's championship or failure.  It completely ignores the regular season success that fans get to enjoy for six months.  Canucks fans love to ridicule Toronto for constantly choking (which is funny given our poor history the last 10 years).  But if anyone tells me they're not enjoying the games right now, they're lying through their teeth.

 

If anyone prefers us to be a wildcard team, we should be exactly like Toronto this year: brutally inconsistent with completely unpredictable defending/goaltending.