Myth: “The Canucks need secondary scoring”

[Jeremy Hronek]

Tl;dr = We don’t need secondary scoring.  We need to bring in a Top 3 calibre dman that can anchor a 2nd pairing and form an elite pairing with Hronek just in case Hughes gets hurt.

 

For many weeks now, we’ve seen countless proposals involving the Canucks acquiring a second line piece to provide complementary scoring to our reformed “Lotto line.”  
 

For me though, I still maintain the following position:

 

1. The Canucks do not need help with secondary scoring because even though they have a weak second line, all of their other lines produce consistent offense. Furthermore, in the event of injuries, 

 

A. Kuzmenko or Mikheyev could fill in on the Lotto line incase there is an injury to one of the players on there, and that line would still probably be dangerous.

 

B. Suter can play on the Garland line incase there are any injuries to Bluegar, Garland, or Joshua.

 

C. Hoglander + our AHL depth of Raty and/or Podkolzin could easily play anywhere on lines 2-4 as complementary pieces. 
 

D. If we really needed to, we could always split up Miller and Petey again if we needed to create depth on other lines to combat against injuries.

 

So long story short - I do not really see a need for the Canucks to make a trade for secondary scoring.

 

The Canucks’ biggest need in my opinion is to bring in a 2A/#3 calibre defenseman that could form an elite pairing with Hronek just in case Hughes were to get injured.  

If Hughes were to get injured, the Canucks would immediately go from being an elite team to a 10-13 calibre team in my opinion (ie 2nd round fodder or even a 1st round upset loss). 

 

Now - could guys like Soucy, Zadorov, and Cole play with Hronek?  Absolutely.  Would the pairing be elite?  Nope.  They would get caved in by opposing top lines.  
 

 

 

 

[MattJVD]

Maybe it's a semantic difference, but I don't think secondary scoring has been a need since the 2nd month of the season. When the Garland line and Hogs on the 4th really started going, we've been getting some of the best secondary scoring in the NHL. 

 

We need another primary scorer, either centering line 2 or someone with high-end skill that can be paired with a Petey-lead 2nd line. And yes, I agree we need a legit #3 D man. We have a super-star #1 D, and solid #2, then a bunch of 4/5 guys. No one in anchoring that 2nd pair.

[Jeremy Hronek]

3 minutes ago, MattJVD said:

Maybe it's a semantic difference, but I don't think secondary scoring has been a need since the 2nd month of the season. When the Garland line and Hogs on the 4th really started going, we've been getting some of the best secondary scoring in the NHL. 

 

We need another primary scorer, either centering line 2 or someone with high-end skill that can be paired with a Petey-lead 2nd line. And yes, I agree we need a legit #3 D man. We have a super-star #1 D, and solid #2, then a bunch of 4/5 guys. No one in anchoring that 2nd pair.

Agree with you 100% about our defense (many 4/5 guys + a significant drop off after Hughes and Hronek). 
 

My concern about acquiring another primary scorer is that

 

1.  It will cost us assets

2.  We would likely need to split up our red hot Lotto line because of…

3. This newly acquired primary scorer and this newly created second line probably won’t be able to do much with any combination of Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Hoglander as linemates.  

[Jeremy Hronek]

8 minutes ago, MattJVD said:

Maybe it's a semantic difference, but I don't think secondary scoring has been a need since the 2nd month of the season. When the Garland line and Hogs on the 4th really started going, we've been getting some of the best secondary scoring in the NHL. 

 

We need another primary scorer, either centering line 2 or someone with high-end skill that can be paired with a Petey-lead 2nd line. And yes, I agree we need a legit #3 D man. We have a super-star #1 D, and solid #2, then a bunch of 4/5 guys. No one in anchoring that 2nd pair.

If the Canucks are hell bent on acquiring a Top 6 piece, I’d go about it from a different perspective:

 

Form an elite shut down line with Suter, Mikheyev, and #NewGuy.  Suter and Mikheyev are already excellent defensive players.  If #NewGuy is also elite defensively, then you could give the lotto line and the Garland line more offensive deployment.  

[The Duke]

I’ve been on “#3 D” for awhile but another scorer for the top 6 might be easier to find for this season. 
 

IMO Kuzmenko + our 1st are likely in play this season, and JR/PA aren’t known for their patience.  Will be interesting what we can get for that with maybe a B prospect tacked on.

 

With Myers, Zadorov and Cole up this offseason (Hronek too but he’s getting locked up almost certainly) that’s going to naturally create some flexibility to land that #3 cap-wise that we might not be able to work out mid-season this year. 

[The Lock]

I think it's not so much a matter of whether the Canucks "need" more scoring. It's more about what can we do to bring this team over the top in my opinion. I've even made the argument about all 3 other lines scoring means the 2nd line isn't that big of a deal. However, that 2nd line not scoring is still a 2nd line not scoring after all and it's an obvious point of improvement.

[Hammertime]

We're a Keith Ballard away from being contenders.

[Jeremy Hronek]

7 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

We're a Keith Ballard away from being contenders.

Ballard, in 2011, was a bottom pairing defenseman (or a #4 at best). My argument is that we need another Top 3 defenseman that can fill for Hughes on the top pairing incase of injury.

[The Lock]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Ballard, in 2011, was a bottom pairing defenseman (or a #4 at best). My argument is that we need another Top 3 defenseman that can fill for Hughes on the top pairing incase of injury.

 

Thing is, Ballard suffered from injuries when he was here. He went from being a solid open ice hitter averaging above 30 points a season in Florida to being on that bottom pairing.

 

Don't think of Ballard for what he became, think of what he was to bring originally which is what you describe here.

Edited January 29 by The Lock

[Googlie]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Agree with you 100% about our defense (many 4/5 guys + a significant drop off after Hughes and Hronek). 
 

My concern about acquiring another primary scorer is that

 

1.  It will cost us assets

2.  We would likely need to split up our red hot Lotto line because of…

3. This newly acquired primary scorer and this newly created second line probably won’t be able to do much with any combination of Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Hoglander as linemates.  

 

He might already be in the system ...

 

 

And the next year .....

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-under-the-microscope-linus-karlssons-strong-transition-season-merits-nhl-look

 

Hoagie has used his 4th line status to force himself into the conversation as a top 6 forward -  look for LK to do the same.  Colliton has had him focus on his 200' game, but he hasn't forgotten how to score

[CanuckMan]

LOL bro r u serious? 
Kuz and Mikh can fill in on the lotto line if there’s an injury? As in score on the 1st line?

They can’t even score on the 2nd line on a good day. Petey is carrying that line those 2 guys have hands of stone lately.

[Jeremy Hronek]

2 hours ago, CanuckMan said:

LOL bro r u serious? 
Kuz and Mikh can fill in on the lotto line if there’s an injury? As in score on the 1st line?

They can’t even score on the 2nd line on a good day. Petey is carrying that line those 2 guys have hands of stone lately.

 
1. Pettersson and Miller, on the same line, probably could carry either of Kuzmenko or Mikheyev.

 

2. They can’t score on the 2nd line mainly because Puis Suter is the center (Suter is a good bottom 6 player but not the type of guy you would want as your 2nd line C).

 

So to answer your question, “yes - I am serious bro.”

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Ballard, in 2011, was a bottom pairing defenseman (or a #4 at best). My argument is that we need another Top 3 defenseman that can fill for Hughes on the top pairing incase of injury.

Not on Florida, which was the point.   

[IBatch]

The approach to keep QHs healthy, can happen in other ways.    He's not the first player on a top team, and won't be the last, that fans worry about in the post season.  

 

The cost to acquire a Marroon type, is a heck of a lot less, then trying to add say, another "Hronek" on the left side.    This teams also in deep doo-doo, if Demko goes down.   Or Miller.  Actually would rank it :  Demko, QHs, Miller, EP, Brock. 

 

Any cup aspirations, go out the window if Demko is injured.    Hronek can fill in for QHs on our not so great anymore PP anyways.     I have complete doubts, that EP can be the man if Miller goes down.    Which is scary given some of the numbers fans are throwing around for him.   You can build any line around Miller, EP apparently is hard to do.     Unless he's with Miller. 

 

Of the group, Brock isn't easy to replace either, not 2023-2024 Brock.   But Kuzmenko and Ilya M are options.   Same with Garland, he'd be first up if he wasn't the engine on his important line. 

 

Losing QHs would suck.   He's our Wayne Gretzky.    Let's hope we can win some cups before his massive raise is coming. 

Edited January 29 by IBatch

[aGENT]

15 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Tl;dr = We don’t need secondary scoring.  We need to bring in a Top 3 calibre dman that can anchor a 2nd pairing and form an elite pairing with Hronek just in case Hughes gets hurt.

 

For many weeks now, we’ve seen countless proposals involving the Canucks acquiring a second line piece to provide complementary scoring to our reformed “Lotto line.”  
 

For me though, I still maintain the following position:

 

1. The Canucks do not need help with secondary scoring because even though they have a weak second line, all of their other lines produce consistent offense. Furthermore, in the event of injuries, 

 

A. Kuzmenko or Mikheyev could fill in on the Lotto line incase there is an injury to one of the players on there, and that line would still probably be dangerous.

 

B. Suter can play on the Garland line incase there are any injuries to Bluegar, Garland, or Joshua.

 

C. Hoglander + our AHL depth of Raty and/or Podkolzin could easily play anywhere on lines 2-4 as complementary pieces. 
 

D. If we really needed to, we could always split up Miller and Petey again if we needed to create depth on other lines to combat against injuries.

 

So long story short - I do not really see a need for the Canucks to make a trade for secondary scoring.

 

The Canucks’ biggest need in my opinion is to bring in a 2A/#3 calibre defenseman that could form an elite pairing with Hronek just in case Hughes were to get injured.  

If Hughes were to get injured, the Canucks would immediately go from being an elite team to a 10-13 calibre team in my opinion (ie 2nd round fodder or even a 1st round upset loss). 

 

Now - could guys like Soucy, Zadorov, and Cole play with Hronek?  Absolutely.  Would the pairing be elite?  Nope.  They would get caved in by opposing top lines.  
 

 

 

 

 

While I generally agree that we still need a #3 RHD upgrade on Myers, if not this TDL, this summer, I think the idea to upgrade the top 6 (really replace/upgrade an ill fitting Kuzmenko), is to split up the lotto line and have another line, driven by Petey, that makes us harder to match up against.

 

It's probably the bigger "need" right now. But I agree, 2nd pair RHD is still a major priority near term.

[Hero11]

One more depth D move (Tanev), and find a way to swap out Mikheyev and or Kuzmenko for a player better suited for Tocchet's system (Vatrano?) seems clear. 

If the management can pull that off, I think there is going to be a fun playoff run this year. 

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Hero11 said:

One more depth D move (Tanev), and find a way to swap out Mikheyev and or Kuzmenko for a player better suited for Tocchet's system (Vatrano?) seems clear. 

If the management can pull that off, I think there is going to be a fun playoff run this year. 

 

FTFY

[aGENT]

16 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Agree with you 100% about our defense (many 4/5 guys + a significant drop off after Hughes and Hronek). 
 

My concern about acquiring another primary scorer is that

 

1.  It will cost us assets

2.  We would likely need to split up our red hot Lotto line because of…

3. This newly acquired primary scorer and this newly created second line probably won’t be able to do much with any combination of Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Hoglander as linemates.  

 

The lotto line has never been a long term solution IMO. You can put it together for a stretch (as we have), or situationally (trailing late in a game for example) but long term, it's just not feasible for regular use. You need two consistently threatening top 6 lines to be a match up problem. Miller and Pettersson need to be split to make that work.

 

And the problem with that is that Kuzmenko has both struggled (sophomore slump?), had an expected shot % regression, and I don't think he's naturally a player that fits our systems play. Mikheyev is fine...he's a bit slower coming off major knee surgery, but should be back, close to 100% by playoffs and he's not paid to be the play driver on that line. He's also still been "competent" despite that fact. Most top 6 lines will have a pair of more skilled play drivers, and a complementary "mucker" that usually lends some combination of 2 way play, puck retrieval, net presence etc. Mik, is just fine as that guy. We need a skilled upgrade on Kuz that can hang with Petey and play our system. Either that or Kuz needs to have a "lightbulb" moment.

 

 

[The Lock]

16 hours ago, CanuckMan said:

LOL bro r u serious? 
Kuz and Mikh can fill in on the lotto line if there’s an injury? As in score on the 1st line?

They can’t even score on the 2nd line on a good day. Petey is carrying that line those 2 guys have hands of stone lately.

 

You seem ultra focused on what currently exists rather than what could exist. Why do you think coaches line juggle? It's to see if a player not playing well on one line can find their game on another. Never say never with a player as well.

[Hero11]

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

FTFY

I have been a Mikheyev supporter all along, but he's showing that he doesn't gel with any of the top line forwards. Maybe it's the structure that he is struggling with? The one thing I like about his game is his pk.

A lot to pay for a pk player when we have depth there. He is still a great player with value....likey somewhere else though. I would be happy if management were able to make a deal to either compliment him or swap him out for a player that can produce in our structure. 

Just my thought.

[aGENT]

15 minutes ago, Hero11 said:

I have been a Mikheyev supporter all along, but he's showing that he doesn't gel with any of the top line forwards. Maybe it's the structure that he is struggling with? The one thing I like about his game is his pk.

A lot to pay for a pk player when we have depth there. He is still a great player with value....likey somewhere else though. I would be happy if management were able to make a deal to either compliment him or swap him out for a player that can produce in our structure. 

Just my thought.

 

I don't think that's the case, as I said he's still putting up "competent" numbers despite the injury, and despite the line (Kuz) struggling. You need two skill guys driving play, he's there to complement them, not drive. If one of the play drivers has a flat tire... 

 

If management does manage to get a Guentzel or similar to play with Mik and Petey, I doubt we'll see any major "gel" issues. That line's problem has been the second skill guy, all year.

[Jeremy Hronek]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

The lotto line has never been a long term solution IMO. You can put it together for a stretch (as we have), or situationally (trailing late in a game for example) but long term, it's just not feasible for regular use. You need two consistently threatening top 6 lines to be a match up problem. Miller and Pettersson need to be split to make that work.

 

And the problem with that is that Kuzmenko has both struggled (sophomore slump?), had an expected shot % regression, and I don't think he's naturally a player that fits our systems play. Mikheyev is fine...he's a bit slower coming off major knee surgery, but should be back, close to 100% by playoffs and he's not paid to be the play driver on that line. He's also still been "competent" despite that fact. Most top 6 lines will have a pair of more skilled play drivers, and a complementary "mucker" that usually lends some combination of 2 way play, puck retrieval, net presence etc. Mik, is just fine as that guy. We need a skilled upgrade on Kuz that can hang with Petey and play our system. Either that or Kuz needs to have a "lightbulb" moment.

 

 

These are all excellent points.

 

The way I see it however, is that the Garland line (3rd line) and 4th line are consistently producing offense, so much so to the point where our impotent 2nd line hasn’t been an affected the team whatsoever.  
 

The Lotto line is every bit as dangerous as the WCE line from 2002-2004 and the Sedin line from 2010-2012, and so would it even make sense to split them up?

 

Here is my biggest fear:

 

1. The Canucks trade significant assets for a guy like Jake Guentzel.

 

2. We split up the Lotto line to accommodate Jake.

 

3. Instead of creating two good scoring lines, we create two somewhat mediocre lines (Mikheyev-Pettersson-Boeser / Hoglander-Miller-Guentzel), and then end up reverting back to our old Lotto line as a result (which basically leaves Guentzel playing with “thespians” such as Suter, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, or Hoglander on the 2nd line).  
 

So for me - I would rather just keep the Lotto line together since they literally tilt the ice every time they’re on (and even moreso with Hughes and Hronek back there driving play).  
 

For our current 2nd line - you know what I’d do?  Instead of making it a secondary scoring line (which we are already getting from our bottom 6), I’d strongly consider making it an elite shut down line.  
 

Suter and Mikheyev are elite defensive players.  What if these guys had a fellow elite defensive player to join them?  Now all of a sudden, we would have one of the best shut down lines in all of hockey.  Anyway, that’s one possibly way that I’d approach things.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aGENT]

11 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

3. Instead of creating two good scoring lines, we create two somewhat mediocre lines (Mikheyev-Pettersson-Boeser / Hoglander-Miller-Guentzel), and then end up reverting back to our old Lotto line as a result (which basically leaves Guentzel playing with “thespians” such as Suter, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, or Hoglander on the 2nd line).  
 

 

I think you'd see Guentzel with Petey personally. Keep the Miller-Boeser pair together.

 

Mik, Petey, Guentzel (or similar)

Hog/Suter, Miller, Boeser

 

Neither of those is "mediocre".

 

And if I had my way, we'd also swing a move for Bjugstad. Big, 2 way, RH'd C that can take turns with Petey taking faceoffs on their strong sides.

 

Guentzel, Petey, Bjug

Mik, Miller, Boeser 

 

...would be a killer playoff top 6 AND push guys like Hog and Suter to the bottom 6 making those two lines even more potent.

[Hero11]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

I don't think that's the case, as I said he's still putting up "competent" numbers despite the injury, and despite the line (Kuz) struggling. You need two skill guys driving play, he's there to complement them, not drive. If one of the play drivers has a flat tire... 

 

If management does manage to get a Guentzel or similar to play with Mik and Petey, I doubt we'll see any major "gel" issues. That line's problem has been the second skill guy, all year.

I understand what you are saying, and I somewhat agree but he has had his chances with Pettersson and Boeser to drive the play for him. 

He doesn't produce or play a in a way that warrants the money he makes in my opinion. That money could potentially be put towards a player who can.

His McDavid pace speed was sold to us when we got him and we've yet to see it.

[Reg]

It will be really interesting to see what JR and PA will do to enhance the roster before the playoffs. Just a hunch but I am thinking they may go off-the-board to trade for a forward and a defenseman soon after the All-Star break. As in bring in a couple of players who most of us have not thought of and who have not been identified to date as potential targets.