How long before heads are on the chopping block in Columbus?

[Miss Korea]

This is line with everything I said in the Jiricek thread.  David Jiricek has not been that great on the ice and he has always been a bit outspoken for his age.  Having said that, it makes no sense what Columbus has done, from Babcock to now.  They have a prime prospect RD, but they bring on two veterans in Provorov and Severson onto a blueline that is already stacked.  And now they're playing Peeke and Boqvist ahead of Jiricek... for what?  Draft picks?  Kent Johnson got demoted earlier.  Adam Fantilli was forced to play wing.  This is an obvious rebuilding team and yet they are forcing their best young players into positions they're clearly uncomfortable with.

 

  

 

 

Apart from Boone Jenner (who they're desperate to ship off), every veteran has gotten worse in Columbus.  Every single high draft pick of theirs is struggling.  There is no doubt in my mind that all of them are not very happy playing under that system.  And guess what?  Jackets fans don't blame them.  They're actually very sympathetic to what Jiricek is going through.  They have absolutely no clue why he's being benched in favour of other trash players.

 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Their management is a mess, they had a chance to go the rebuild-route and decided to retool and try to contend immediately despite being a bottom feeder team without a good core. We were a bottom feeder but had good pieces in place after years of rebuilding whereas they haven't. They got Gaudreau out of nowhere and then Laine and thought they could build a team around them - arguably two of the worst "core" players in the league.

 

This off-season surprised a lot of people but it was a risky play, to acquire so many players in their prime, but really they just got a bunch of players who are other team's rejects and aren't that good and tried to smash them together on a relatively poorly coached team as well. No surprises really.

 

They should clean house top to bottom. Get rid of management, get rid of the coaches and then get rid of these top players for picks and prospects. Now's a good time to try and rebuild because they're nowhere near contending.

[Boudrias]

John Davidson is the Pres of hockey operations. He has kept the GM so I suspect he could be on the block as well as the GM. There appears to be a culture issue in CBJ. There used to be a substantial Canadian ownership faction in this franchise. Not sure about now?

[Johngould21]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

John Davidson is the Pres of hockey operations. He has kept the GM so I suspect he could be on the block as well as the GM. There appears to be a culture issue in CBJ. There used to be a substantial Canadian ownership faction in this franchise. Not sure about now?

Was that debacle with Babs being hired, then fired for stupidity the cause of all this turmoil?

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Nah, I enjoyed all of Quinn, Burke, and Nonis.

Milford wasn't so bad either. 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

This is line with everything I said in the Jiricek thread.  David Jiricek has not been that great on the ice and he has always been a bit outspoken for his age.  Having said that, it makes no sense what Columbus has done, from Babcock to now.  They have a prime prospect RD, but they bring on two veterans in Provorov and Severson onto a blueline that is already stacked.  And now they're playing Peeke and Boqvist ahead of Jiricek... for what?  Draft picks?  Kent Johnson got demoted earlier.  Adam Fantilli was forced to play wing.  This is an obvious rebuilding team and yet they are forcing their best young players into positions they're clearly uncomfortable with.

 

  

 

 

Apart from Boone Jenner (who they're desperate to ship off), every veteran has gotten worse in Columbus.  Every single high draft pick of theirs is struggling.  There is no doubt in my mind that all of them are not very happy playing under that system.  And guess what?  Jackets fans don't blame them.  They're actually very sympathetic to what Jiricek is going through.  They have absolutely no clue why he's being benched in favour of other trash players.

 

 

Funny how WAR models are so terrible, when a player is on a bad team.    Maybe, they just drafted poorly as well.   Or maybe they just need to keep going, and eventually, it will just all click for them too.   How's Myers doing compared to last year anyways?   This is the biggest failure of that model.    It needs to weigh the cycle a teams in better.   It doesn't.    Most players, are more effective, with better line mates, well ALL players.    If WAR also factored in that metric somehow, aside from "quality of competition" in itself very subjective, they'd win me over.   But they have not done that.   And seriously, what is last year Myers, and right now Myers? 

 

Would right now Myers, be twice as good ... or 10 times as good?  Of course not.  

Edited January 30 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

Chiarelli/Benning? 

 

[Coconuts]

 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Funny how WAR models are so terrible, when a player is on a bad team.    Maybe, they just drafted poorly as well.   Or maybe they just need to keep going, and eventually, it will just all click for them too.   How's Myers doing compared to last year anyways?   This is the biggest failure of that model.    It needs to weigh the cycle a teams in better.   It doesn't.    Most players, are more effective, with better line mates, well ALL players.    If WAR also factored in that metric somehow, aside from "quality of competition" in itself very subjective, they'd win me over.   But they have not done that.   And seriously, what is last year Myers, and right now Myers? 

 

Would right now Myers, be twice as good ... or 10 times as good?  Of course not.  

I agree. The WAR charts can only gauge what a player does based on his current teammates. It cannot give a value or a number based on different teammates. That’s the biggest flaw of analytics and why you need the eye test like we used to do back in the day to judge talent. This is why teams still have scouts that go to the game. 
 

David Jiricek is a perfect example. Does any team believe he is only an 18% defender?  Cole Sillinger at 4%. These are 2 young players that every team would love to have. But their analytics are awful. Why? Because they  play for a shit team. 
 

If Jiricek was partnering Hughes on a top team like the Canucks his WAR number would probably be in the 80’s. Sillinger on our second line would be in the 70’s. 

 

I am also curious what Myers number is today versus two years ago. He certainly is the exact same player. Just on a much better team now with better coaching too. This will affect your WAR number just as much as your talent level. 

Edited January 30 by Elias Pettersson

[canuck73_3]

10 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Nah, I enjoyed all of Quinn, Burke, and Nonis.

The Correct Answer is Quinn, Gillis, and PA/JR Results speak for themselves. 

[Miss Korea]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Funny how WAR models are so terrible, when a player is on a bad team.    Maybe, they just drafted poorly as well.   Or maybe they just need to keep going, and eventually, it will just all click for them too.   How's Myers doing compared to last year anyways?   This is the biggest failure of that model.    It needs to weigh the cycle a teams in better.   It doesn't.    Most players, are more effective, with better line mates, well ALL players.    If WAR also factored in that metric somehow, aside from "quality of competition" in itself very subjective, they'd win me over.   But they have not done that.   And seriously, what is last year Myers, and right now Myers? 

 

Would right now Myers, be twice as good ... or 10 times as good?  Of course not.  

 

The point of me showing these is that literally all of the young players are performing poorly.  As long as you have the context, you start to realize what's going on.

 

Having said that, exceptional players will stand out among the rest, even on a bad team.  The inverse is also true - a poor player will stand out amongst a great team.

 

 

 

 

The trends on the right are the most important things to look at, not the cumulative numbers on the left.

Edited January 30 by Miss Korea

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

The point of me showing these is that literally all of the young players are performing poorly.  As long as you have the context, you start to realize what's going on.

 

Having said that, exceptional players will stand out among the rest, even on a bad team.  The inverse is also true - a poor player will stand out amongst a great team.

 

 

 

 

The trends on the right are the most important things to look at, not the cumulative numbers on the left.

It still stands, that the better the team, the better the numbers (usually).     But I do like that you show them.   It's interesting.   

Edited January 30 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

The Correct Answer is Quinn, Gillis, and PA/JR Results speak for themselves. 

Too early for PA/JR.   Where the heck is Milford anyways, a cup final and the best four years of drafting in club history. 

Edited January 30 by IBatch

[canuck73_3]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Too early for PA/JR.   Where the heck is Milford anyways, a cup final and the best four years of drafting in club history. 

Trajectory is showing they will be in the discussion, early work has been excellent since the Boudreau stuff. 

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Trajectory is showing they will be in the discussion, early work has been excellent since the Boudreau stuff. 

Burke's work was also good, so was Nonis's work.   If we are going to give JR/Allvin the credit, then we have to say what JR's already stated "We can see what JB was trying to do" paraphrased.    You know, the worst GM in franchise history.    I'm glad we've got a competent finisher.    I do wonder, how things would have gone if Nonis wasn't fire for not trading Kesler etc for the late great Brad Richard's.     Also thought the Sundin signing was insane.   Thank god, he didn't accept MG (his former agents) collusion like offer.   Sundin is a stand up man for retiring,  did us a huge solid.  

Edited January 30 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Burke's work was also good, so was Nonis's work.   If we are going to give JR/Allvin the credit, then we have to say what JR's already stated "We can see what JB was trying to do" paraphrased.   

 

Benning era management got a lot wrong, but if Rutherford and Allvin have success with this group they'll do it having built upon the foundation the Benning era management brought in and established. The same way Gillis built atop what Burke and Nonis did.

 

You gotta credit the guys who put the building blocks in place for doing so at the very least if you're going to credit the guys who build on those blocks. 

[canuck73_3]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Burke's work was also good, so was Nonis's work.   If we are going to give JR/Allvin the credit, then we have to say what JR's already stated "We can see what JB was trying to do" paraphrased.    You know, the worst GM in franchise history.    I'm glad we've got a competent finisher.    I do wonder, how things would have gone if Nonis wasn't fire for not trading Kesler etc for the late great Brad Richard's.     Also thought the Sundin signing was insane.   Thank god, he didn't accept MG (his former agents) collusion like offer.   Sundin is a stand up man for retiring,  did us a huge solid.  

To me Benning's issue was timing and overspending on the bottom 6, he overpaid too many bottom 6 forwards while making great moves like the Miller deal and getting Garland in the OEL deal. That said the team was always behind schedule of the big moves he made. Very commendable job by PA and JR to right the ship as quick as they have.