Canada’s fertility rate has hit its lowest level in recorded history

[R3aL]

14 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

I see predominantly the most right wing of blue collar people having lots of kids. Conversely those closer to the 1% are also having lot's of kids. But the left are having 0-1-2-3 kids and I would say the 0 and 1 crowd vastly outweigh 3 or more. 

im sure this makes sense but I had a stroke reading this 

[Hammertime]

1 minute ago, R3aL said:

im sure this makes sense but I had a stroke reading this 

I could make an excel spreadsheet. 

There must be census data that could actually back this up. Haven't attempted to look. I'm basically asserting the right is have'n mo babies than the left.   

[DrJockitch]

What a lazy publication. 
The birth rate is low. This could be in part to changes in fertility but that isn’t the same thing. 
 

[madrigal77]

I'm 44 and married and I've never for 1 second in my entire life wanted a kid. Not for me. I like my freedom and money and time. I say I would rather die and people laugh thinking I'm joking, but I would literally rather die lol.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

Yukon could be interesting, don't know about Nunavut though, that's a very hard place to live for almost anyone. At least Whitehorse would be larger. 

 

Northern BC is interesting, there seem to be a lot of folks who live in Dawson but work out of Alberta. Grande Prairie is about an hour away in good weather. You could probably say the same for Fort St. John, which is only about an hour from Dawson. 

 

With more remote places often comes moving up the ladder faster, particularly in government gigs. But yea it's not easy to make that choice.

 

 

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Daycare is a huge need, it's a huge expenditure for families. The problem is working in that field doesn't typically pay all that well, my mom's been an early childhood educator longer than I've been alive and the profit some centers make is pretty nuts. Particularly if it's more on the side of being a montessori. It's amazing what folks will spend on childcare when considering the other month to month expenses families have. But what do you do? Can't just leave your young children home alone. 

 

Maritimes are physically beautiful, absolutely. Smaller populations though, so you get everything that comes with that economically. 

 

It is beautiful. If you want to fling yourself out to cape Breton you'd have many opportunities.

 

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

It's tricky nowadays any way you spin it, most Canadians definitely don't have it easy regardless of their age. Lot of Canadians both young and old will probably never be able to retire, that may be a thing of the past going forward. 

 

Man never retiring here seems to like a great reason to move to Mexico.

[Ghostsof1915]

Even places like China. People are having smaller and smaller families. It's a simple matter that the middle class is getting squeezed so tight. We can't afford to buy housing.

And can't afford to raise a kid or two. When the rich go all off on "Get a job", notice they don't say get a good paying job. Because those are harder and harder to find.

Improve the standard of living, and let the Lower and Middle Classes have a decent shot at decent wages to afford housing, not to mention the cost of child care.

Hell I doubt I can afford Radium Springs, let alone the GVRD.

 

 

[King Heffy]

25 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

I could make an excel spreadsheet. 

There must be census data that could actually back this up. Haven't attempted to look. I'm basically asserting the right is have'n mo babies than the left.   

Makes sense considering the right is less concerned with the environmental concerns future generations will have to face.

[Ghostsof1915]

If I wasn't so close to retirement (Hopefully 10 years?) I'd move to Atlantic Canada provided I could find work.

Yeah the snow would suck, but it's still a great place.

[Taxi]

Cost of living is definitely playing a role in our decision on whether or not to have more children. We have one child. Finding daycare was a nightmare. Even with subsidies it costs like $1200/month, plus we have to pay a babysitter $150-200/day every time the kid gets sick and can't go to daycare....even though the only place she is getting the cold from is daycare. 

 

There are some $10/day daycare facilities around us. Everyone I know that's got into one, did so through connections. Government funding being eaten up by nepotism. 

 

On top of that housing is insane. The cost of a 3 bedroom place is out of control. I would love to buy a walk up 3 bedroom townhouse, in the $1million ish range. That's not happening anytime soon. We've got new zoning laws, but it'll be a decade before we see any impact on the market.

 

More costs just mean working longer hours, which translates into being exhausted at home. Once the kid is older and in pre-school/Kindergarter, I have no idea how that will work. Assuming we get a spot in a school, how are we supposed to get a child to and from school for a partial day, if we both work during the day. The schools are all jam packed too, almost as bad as the daycares. 

 

Yeah, the governments have f-ed Canadian families. Zero planning for increased populations.  

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

People like to blame other things for their own issues, like government policy, or insufficient wages, or lack of affordable housing in the size or shape that we want.

 

At the end of the day though, we are responsible (individually and collectively) for the decisions we make and the consequences that follow.

 

My wife and I made a conscious decision not to have kids - I mean, if fate should have it that our offspring should issue forth purely by chance, then so be it, but it's not something we're actively or intentionally pursuing.  She has her reasons, and mine are: why the fuck would I want to subject my offspring to this world of bullshittery and inequality and irresponsibility by those who should feel (and be) responsible?  I know that this will result in "consequences", such as nobody to "take care" of us in our elder years, but is that really a proper reason to have kids - to saddle them with having to wipe our shit and deal with the medical decisions for our failing bodies in our old age?  Fuck that.  Life is tough enough having to deal with your own shit, nobody likes to be saddled with other people's shit as well.

 

[/0.02]

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Master Mind said:

 

I think people will feel this more than they realize over time.

 

Another contributing factor is more people focusing on their careers/hobbies/themselves. Less emphasis on family.

 

To each their own, but I don't think anything in life comes anywhere close to the importance of family. Having less of that seems like a recipe for regret.

 

Probably. Canada's social safety net, or what remains of it, seems to be leaning further and further towards putting the responsibility of taking care of the young and old old on the backs of families and communities.

 

This isn't insignificant considering Canadians are living longer than ever.

 

There is no single answer to declining birth rates, but I wouldn't necessarily say school/career or family has to be one or the other. Not that you were.

 

A couple years back Canada was the most educated country in the world per capita, not sure if that's the case anymore. Many go back for family reasons, to try and get ahead. It's why I went back a third time, if I go back for a masters it'll be the biggest reason why. 

 

Mind you, the western world does place more emphasis on individualism than collectivism. Multigenerational families are much more of a norm in many Eastern countries for example. The nuclear family is also a relatively modern western thing if I'm not mistaken.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Probably. Canada's social safety net, or what remains of it, seems to be leaning further and further towards putting the responsibility of taking care of the young and old old on the backs of families and communities.

 

This isn't insignificant considering Canadians are living longer than ever.

 

There is no single answer to declining birth rates, but I wouldn't necessarily say school/career or family has to be one or the other. Not that you were.

 

A couple years back Canada was the most educated country in the world per capita, not sure if that's the case anymore. Many go back for family reasons, to try and get ahead. It's why I went back a third time, if I go back for a masters it'll be the biggest reason why. 

 

Mind you, the western world does place more emphasis on individualism than collectivism. Multigenerational families are much more of a norm in many Eastern countries for example. The nuclear family is also a relatively modern western thing if I'm not mistaken.

 

most of my wife's family back in Italy do the shared multi-generational thing. Its a fine way to go. Maybe we're just too stuck in the post WW2 Norman Rockwell idea of a nuclear family? dunno.

 

I do know education is your ticket, so I'm happy to hear you're considering a masters. 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Could moving to a different province or cheaper smaller/remote areas guarantee job opportunities and pay? In particular jobs you may have already invested years worth of schooling for?
 

Bigger cities afford much more job opportunities. 

 

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

most of my wife's family back in Italy do the shared multi-generational thing. Its a fine way to go. Maybe we're just too stuck in the post WW2 Norman Rockwell idea of a nuclear family? dunno.

 

I do know education is your ticket, so I'm happy to hear you're considering a masters. 

 

 

I think there's still a lot of negative stigma attached to living with your immediate family, particularly for younger folks.

 

I grew up with the view of moving out, getting a car, and getting a place being the goal. Many us still do it, but most of the folks I know in my age bracket rent. Those who don't usually either have family help or have gotten an inheritance. This is just my lived experience though.

 

But times have changed, I don't get to participate in the economies my parents did. I think many Canadian families are going to have to adapt, which should lead to more intergenerational families and dwellings. 

 

There are upsides and downsides to it, but it's fascinating to explore. Many folks do it out of necessity. 

 

If I go back it'll probs be for a masters of social work or some sort of counseling masters. Doubt I'd do it full time, doing a full time bachelors has been pretty miserable, particularly given mine is an online program. But that's also more common nowadays. 

 

It being online is why I'm on CFF so much tbh, I spend most days on my laptop.

Edited January 31 by Coconuts

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I think there's still a lot of negative stigma attached to living with your immediate family, particularly for younger folks.

 

I grew up with the view of moving out, getting a car, and getting a place being the goal. Many us still do it, but most of the folks I know in my age bracket rent. Those who don't usually either have family help or have gotten an inheritance. This is just my lived experience though.

 

But times have changed, I don't get to participate in the economies my parents did. I think many Canadian families are going to have to adapt, which should lead to more intergenerational families and dwellings. 

 

There are upsides and downsides to it, but it's fascinating to explore. Many folks do it out of necessity. 

 

yea its a bit odd, I do think its 70 years of marketing drilled into our brains that we need to accumulate as much crap and debt as possible. 

 

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

If I go back it'll probs be for a masters of social work or some sort of counseling masters. Doubt I'd do it full time, doing a full time bachelors has been pretty miserable, particularly given mine is an online program. But that's also more common nowadays. 

 

Royal Roads has some good programs, not sure if thats relevant to you. But the more the better. I have a masters and 2 BAs, the wife PhD. Its allowed us to do so much in life we'd never, ever had a chance to do otherwise. 

 

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It being online is why I'm on CFF so much tbh, I spend most days on my laptop.

 

I'm just addicted. 

 

[Shekky]

I think another factor that is adding to less population is the increasing factors in children with disabilities too. My wife and I have 3 kids and 2 of them have some form of cognitive learning disability and a friend of ours has a child who is severely disabled and she only has the one child and doesn't want to have another due to her first experience.

[Ghostsof1915]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I think there's still a lot of negative stigma attached to living with your immediate family, particularly for younger folks.

 

I grew up with the view of moving out, getting a car, and getting a place being the goal. Many us still do it, but most of the folks I know in my age bracket rent. Those who don't usually either have family help or have gotten an inheritance. This is just my lived experience though.

 

But times have changed, I don't get to participate in the economies my parents did. I think many Canadian families are going to have to adapt, which should lead to more intergenerational families and dwellings. 

 

There are upsides and downsides to it, but it's fascinating to explore. Many folks do it out of necessity. 

 

If I go back it'll probs be for a masters of social work or some sort of counseling masters. Doubt I'd do it full time, doing a full time bachelors has been pretty miserable, particularly given mine is an online program. But that's also more common nowadays. 

 

It being online is why I'm on CFF so much tbh, I spend most days on my laptop.

I lived at home until I was 25. A lot of people my age stayed home simply because it was more affordable.

I wish I had taken a trade at 18, then I could have saved money for 3-4 years for a place townhouse that I probably could have afforded at the time.

Fast forward my nieces didn't move out until about the same age and there was way less stigma with that.

My nephews. The oldest is a bit of a gypsy he gets decent jobs and moves around and travels. Maybe he will settle down more when he hits 40.

The youngest is in his early 30's and he still lives with my Brother, and is learning to take over my brother's business before he retires. (If he retires, he loves his work.)

My nieces have two kids each. My nephews have no kids.

 

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yea its a bit odd, I do think its 70 years of marketing drilled into our brains that we need to accumulate as much crap and debt as possible. 

 

 

Royal Roads has some good programs, not sure if thats relevant to you. But the more the better. I have a masters and 2 BAs, the wife PhD. Its allowed us to do so much in life we'd never, ever had a chance to do otherwise. 

 

 

I'm just addicted. 

 

 

I think societal views on what amounts to "independence" haven't caught up with modern realities to a degree too

 

With the way costs of housing, costs of living, costs in general have gone up it's tough to be single and financially independent 

 

Not impossible, several folks make it work, but it's tough

 

I think you're right about stuff too though, many Canadians have credit card dept and it ain't all the day to day essentials 

 

But it's tricky, I understand why economic turmoil and the barrage of bad news could drive spending habits too

 

Maybe, I'd love for my partner to go back to school for similar reasons, probably isn't as feasible as home owners though so it'd probably have to come first 

 

It's tough though, school makes you put a lot of things on the back burner, parenthood would likely be one of them, hard to say

 

Could be I'm just closer to 40 as a first time parent 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

I think societal views on what amounts to "independence" haven't caught up with modern realities to a degree too

 

With the way costs of housing, costs of living, costs in general have gone up it's tough to be single and financially independent 

 

Not impossible, several folks make it work, but it's tough

 

I think you're right about stuff too though, many Canadians have credit card dept and it ain't all the day to day essentials 

 

But it's tricky, I understand why economic turmoil and the barrage of bad news could drive spending habits too

 

Maybe, I'd love for my partner to go back to school for similar reasons, probably isn't as feasible as home owners though so it'd probably have to come first 

 

It's tough though, school makes you put a lot of things on the back burner, parenthood would likely be one of them, hard to say

 

Could be I'm just closer to 40 as a first time parent 

 

I did my masters online with a residency portion - pretty good way to go as far as time management goes. 

 

Sounds like you're putting it together tho. And 40's the new 30 anyway. 

[Shift-4]

1 hour ago, -AJ- said:

 

 

I always dreamed of being a dad throughout my youth and 20s, but I'm more at peace about not being one now. 

 

You can pause the dream, just don't pause the practice

[madrigal77]

I don't think it's just about cost of living. Times have changed. A lot of people just simply don't want kids anymore. Birthrates are declining worldwide, not just in Canada. The only places that seem to have high birthrates are Africa and the Middle East, where they are absolutely pumping out kids (see lots of stories about dudes in Gaza with 11+ kids).

[Coconuts]

8 minutes ago, Shekky said:

I think another factor that is adding to less population is the increasing factors in children with disabilities too. My wife and I have 3 kids and 2 of them have some form of cognitive learning disability and a friend of ours has a child who is severely disabled and she only has the one child and doesn't want to have another due to her first experience.

 

I'm not sure what to make of that one, as someone with ADHD and a learning disability 

 

Two of my three siblings have one, the other, or both as well

 

I can see why that would scare folks away from having kids, but I also think folks are more likely to be diagnosed nowadays in part because we know so much more than we did when even I was a small child 

 

I think a lot of folks from previous generations simply went undiagnosed, or that negative stigmas were more prevalent than they are now to some degree

 

Disability a broad, multifaceted subject, but while there's still much to learn and figure out we know more than we once did

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, madrigal77 said:

I don't think it's just about cost of living. Times have changed. A lot of people just simply don't want kids anymore. Birthrates are declining worldwide, not just in Canada. The only places that seem to have high birthrates are Africa and the Middle East, where they are absolutely pumping out kids (see lots of stories about dudes in Gaza with 11+ kids).

 

It's definitely not just a Canadian issue, western birthrates have been declining for decades 

 

But not just out west, as you've mentioned 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

8 minutes ago, madrigal77 said:

The only places that seem to have high birthrates are Africa and the Middle East, where they are absolutely pumping out kids (see lots of stories about dudes in Gaza with 11+ kids).

 

I can't remember where I read it (or maybe it was from a social studies/history class), but that is in large part due to historical experience that many of their offspring don't make it to the age of adulthood, with contributing factors being plague/disease, scarcity of food (ikr?), war/conflict, amongst other reasons.

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

If I wasn't so close to retirement (Hopefully 10 years?) I'd move to Atlantic Canada provided I could find work.

Yeah the snow would suck, but it's still a great place.

I was looking at leaving Canada altogether for retirement. The place I was looking at has gone to hell though. Still leaning that way but need to research again.