Agree or Disagree: The current Canucks, with the addition of Rasmus Andersson (or another #2A defenseman), would

[Jeremy Hronek]

Do you agree or disagree with the following line of thought?  Why or why not?

 

Upon analyzing the long term cap structure of the Vancouver Canucks, it becomes apparent that this core’s best chance of winning a cup is this year.  
 

The current Canucks only have one slight weakness.  There is too big a drop off in talent between Hronek and whoever would qualify as the teams’ 3rd best defenseman.  If Quinn Hughes were to go down with injury, the Canucks would immediately go from being an elite team to a 10-13 calibre team since any top pairing combination

of [Soucy/Zadorov/Cole/Myers]-Hronek would be unacceptable as a teams’ top pairing.  
 

The Canucks already have a great relationship with Craig Conroy and the Calgary Flames, and so it likely would be in the Canucks’ best interests to make one final deal with Calgary involving Chris Tanev or Rasmus Andersson.  In the case of Rasmus Andersson, the Canucks should seriously consider pursuing this option even if it were to cost them Willander (Myers, Willander, and ???).  
 

While it would be a very tough pill to swallow, the Canucks would not have a single weakness if they went this route.  This year is the best chance that they have at winning a cup and so they should absolutely put all their chips on the table.

 

Your Stanley Cup winning team (and better than 2011)

 

Pettersson-Lindholm-Mikheyev

Suter-Miller-Boeser

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

Hoglander-Aman-Lafferty

 

Hughes-Hronek

Soucy-Andersson

Cole-Zadorov

 

Demko

DeSmith

 

Edited February 2 by Jeremy Hronek

[Sergiomomesso]

Why give up more assets to barely upgrade the RD with Anderson or Tanev? Especially if Willander is going the other way. Look at our team goals against. We aren’t top 5 because of Huggy and Hronek by themselves. 

[-AJ-]

The question isn't easily answerable, as it depends heavily on what we would get to acquire him. If we somehow magically got him without giving anything up and got a random cap exemption, then yes, I would say this team is better than 2011, but that's not reality and obviously, 2011 didn't get that benefit.

[gwarrior]

#1 the pick we could have used to draft Andersson, was the one we traded to get Baertschi. And that pick would have been in the 2013, or 2014 draft. I have a beard of bees. Therefore your argument is moot. 

[Jester13]

I think we might be better already. Hughes - Hronek are on pace for like 160 points, and 2011 had around 170 combined from the back end.  And then you start to compare scoring depth up front, and this year is truly something special. 

[wai_lai416]

not really offensively this might be a better squad.. defensively it's not even close.

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, -AJ- said:

The question isn't easily answerable, as it depends heavily on what we would get to acquire him. If we somehow magically got him without giving anything up and got a random cap exemption, then yes, I would say this team is better than 2011, but that's not reality and obviously, 2011 didn't get that benefit.

At the time Booth and Ballard were considered awfully good adds to an already good team.   Sometimes things don't work out though.    Same thing could happen to adding Andersson.   Myers goofs have gone way down this year, there is a trade off.    On paper Ballard was a solid hitting, gritty, 30-40point RHD.    Booth was a second line scorer. 
 

Said on a different thread, before the Lindholm change, our 2024 forward group is at least on par with 2011 (felt it was edge 2024 if anything) now we have Lindholm and it's undeniably better.   Four all-stars from the forward group.    Deserved ones, like from the old rules.  Hronek would be in too.    That's 7 guys.  

 

2011 gets romanticized, just like 94 and 82.   Which is understandable, some of the best (and worst) moments in franchise history.   It's not like they were leaps and bounds and miles ahead of the rest of the league though.   Just like the 2024 team, it wasn't perfect.   

Edited February 2 by IBatch

[JamesB]

The current team is very good but the 2011 team was slightly better (in my opinion).

 

1. The 2011 team had elite goaltending and won the Jennings trophy. Demmer and DeSmith are very good but it would be hard to argue that they are better than Lu and Schneider.

 

2. The 2011 team did not have a Norris level D-man but it had much more depth. Putting the D-men from the two teams on a quality list would run something as follows:

 

Hughes (current)

Erhoff (2011. He had a great year and got a quite a few Norris votes).

Edler (2011. Also had a great year)

Hamhuis (2011. Also had a great year.)

Hronek (current)

Bieksa (2011)

Salo (2011)

Tanev (2011. A rookie but already good defensively)

A bunch of guys.

 

The 2011 team had 3 guys who were high end "top pairing" D-men and two more who were very good "top 4" D-men and a young Chris Tanev who was already good defensively. The current team has an excellent top pairing and but a big drop-off to a marginal second pairing and a third pairing that is only "pretty good" at best.  

 

3. The current team has better forwards.

 

Overall, I think the 2011 team was better, but the current team has a shot to win the Cup.

 

 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

We aren't going to trade any more high value assets this year.  Not worth it.  We already pushed the limit with Lindholm.  I can see us getting a depth right shot dman at the deadline and maybe a bottom 6 forward for insurance...

[JamesB]

As for trading Willander for a rental D-man who provides a small improvement, I would be totally opposed. Willander could be a rock on D for many years.

 

Allvin has rightly said that he does not want to be "one and done". Yes, teams go through cycles but the Canucks could be very good for the next few years. Re-signing Petey and Hronek won't be easy but with Kuzy gone and Myers' contract expiring it looks possible, maybe on bridge deals. They will need to add some quality but low-price players. That is where Willander and Lekker come in. I think trading them would be crazy.

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, JamesB said:

The current team is very good but the 2011 team was slightly better (in my opinion).

 

1. The 2011 team had elite goaltending and won the Jennings trophy. Demmer and DeSmith are very good but it would be hard to argue that they are better than Lu and Schneider.

 

2. The 2011 team did not have a Norris level D-man but it had much more depth. Putting the D-men from the two teams on a quality list would run something as follows:

 

Hughes (current)

Erhoff (2011. He had a great year and got a quite a few Norris votes).

Edler (2011. Also had a great year)

Hamhuis (2011. Also had a great year.)

Hronek (current)

Bieksa (2011)

Salo (2011)

Tanev (2011. A rookie but already good defensively)

A bunch of guys.

 

The 2011 team had 3 guys who were high end "top pairing" D-men and two more who were very good "top 4" D-men and a young Chris Tanev who was already good defensively. The current team has an excellent top pairing and but a big drop-off to a marginal second pairing and a third pairing that is only "pretty good" at best.  

 

3. The current team has better forwards.

 

Overall, I think the 2011 team was better, but the current team has a shot to win the Cup.

 

 

 

 

Personally feel Hronek could be right there with Edler/Erhoff.  He's not getting the PP time, instead a key partner, for amping up QHs to super-star status.    And PK's.   That puts him at a similar value as one of Erhoff or Edler.   Erhoff got the first unit PP, fell off a cliff once he priced himself out.   Tanev barely got a whiff.   Juulsen has played a lot more, even Friedman.   

 

We will see how things unfold by the end of the year, but can say, this has been the first time since Salo and Erhoff moved on, that we've had six quality NHL D-men, and Juulsen is looking like found money, the same way Tanev was.    Not sure why you'd rank Tanev ahead of anyone but Juulsen.   It did take some time for him to grow his game.     Juulsen has done an admirable job too.     Also Hamhuis Bieksa was our 5 x 5 match-up and considered our top line in the 2011 run.   One of those years, Bieksa tied the league in EV scoring with zero PP time...food for thought, underrated, but doesn't matter where you put him, it goes to show how incredibly balanced and deep it was. 

 

Our top pairing is miles ahead of 2011 (2024).   Coles and Myers pairings have been solid.    Soucy out, well so was Salo with regularity on that team.    Soucy hits like a tank, like to see some of those.   

 

   Speaking of hits (hip checks)  where's Ballard?    Ballard should be ahead of Tanev.   

 

This is the first time, we've got 6 quality D-men again.   Not bottom pairing fillers with fringe AHL guys in and out. 

Edited February 2 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Personally feel Hronek could be right there with Edler/Erhoff.  He's not getting the PP time, instead a key partner, for amping up QHs to super-star status.    And PK's.   That puts him at a similar value as one of Erhoff or Edler.   Erhoff got the first unit PP, fell off a cliff once he priced himself out.   Tanev barely got a whiff.   Juulsen has played a lot more, even Friedman.   

 

We will see how things unfold by the end of the year, but can say, this has been the first time since Salo and Erhoff moved on, that we've had six quality NHL D-men, and Juulsen is looking like found money, the same way Tanev was.    Not sure why you'd rank Tanev ahead of anyone but Juulsen.   It did take some time for him to grow his game.     Juulsen has done an admirable job too.     Also Hamhuis Bieksa was our 5 x 5 match-up and considered our top line in the 2011 run.   One of those years, Bieksa tied the league in EV scoring with zero PP time...food for thought, underrated, but doesn't matter where you put him, it goes to show how incredibly balanced and deep it was. 

 

Our top pairing is miles ahead of 2011 (2024).   Coles and Myers pairings have been solid.    Soucy out, well so was Salo with regularity on that team.    Soucy hits like a tank, like to see some of those.   

 

   Speaking of hits (hip checks)  where's Ballard?    Ballard should be ahead of Tanev.   

 

This is the first time, we've got 6 quality D-men again.   Not bottom pairing fillers with fringe AHL guys in and out. 

 

From what I remember I don't think Tanev played much in the playoffs.  It was this setup:

 

Hamhuis    Bieksa

Edler          Ehrhoff

Ballard       Salo

 

Ballard, Salo and Hamhuis all got hurt, so Alberts and Rome played some games and I think Tanev played a couple at the beginning.  

 

I also agree that Hronek is at the same level as any of those 6 Dmen in 2011.  He's a top pairing RHD, so the equivalent was Bieksa.  Bieksa was tougher and better defensively, but Hronek is a better offensive Dman who can quarterback a PP.

 

At the end of the day, IMO Hughes makes our 2024 defence overall better than 2011.  I mean it's like adding Coffey to the 2011 team.  It's a night and day difference.  2011 did not have a true #1 guy.  We have a superstar right now.

 

I'd rather have a superstar #1 dman with some 4-5 guys, then a bunch of 2-3-4 guys.  The superstar just elevates the whole dcore so much more.  Most teams who win cups have a true #1 dman.  

Edited February 2 by Elias Pettersson

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

From what I remember I don't think Tanev played much in the playoffs.  It was this setup:

 

Hamhuis    Bieksa

Edler          Ehrhoff

Ballard       Salo

 

Ballard, Salo and Hamhuis all got hurt, so Alberts and Rome played some games and I think Tanev played a couple at the beginning.  

 

I also agree that Hronek is at the same level as any of those 6 Dmen in 2011.  He's a top pairing RHD, so the equivalent was Bieksa.  Bieksa was tougher and better defensively, but Hronek is a better offensive Dman who can quarterback a PP.

 

At the end of the day, IMO Hughes makes our 2024 defence overall better than 2011.  I mean it's like adding Coffey to the 2011 team.  It's a night and day difference.  2011 did not have a true #1 guy.  We have a superstar right now.

 

I'd rather have a superstar #1 dman with some 4-5 guys, then a bunch of 2-3-4 guys.  The superstar just elevates the whole dcore so much more.  Most teams who win cups have a true #1 dman.  

Just did a deep dive into the 2011 team stats, and comparing them.   AV was known for his defensive approach, "protect the zero zero tie" became a Meme.    Is Tochett doing it better?  2023-2024 team, is on pace to allow fewer w goals (178 verus 185), its goal differential percentage is far superior too, 59 in 49 games verus 77 in 82 games.    .94 goals per game over for 2011,  1.20 over for 2024.    That's a 30% increase so far this season.    3 x 3 doesn't count either, because shoot-out goals are added in these games.     It makes a minor difference in personal stats maybe, but not when it comes to this.  

 

Remarkable what having six legit NHL D-man can do for a team.   We haven't had that for over a decade now.    It helps every pairing take the load.     I can't say for certain this teams better (yet), the fact we can even discuss it, wasn't expected.     That said we are pacing them very closely.    And do think we romanticize that era, same we as the 94 team, and like that, over time, the good times look better.     Luongo and even Schnieder, had a lot do with 50 ROW,  and with making the D-core look great.    Demko helps with that too.    MG a did an interview this year, and discussed the Luongo contract, and how much losing and the fans reaction affected him.   Took it incredibly personal.   Also said the fans have no idea how good they had it with Luongo, but they will once he's gone.   And how that he made everyone look better out there.     He was that teams QHs.     And a huge part of why they won the presidents trophy.    Schneider went on to become a started and did admirably on some mediocre to bad NJ teams until he burnt out.   We had two  legit top five statistical goalies.     Of course that's going to make the team do better.  

 

Im with you on this group.   No time like the present.   We just got better with Lindholm, who would be on his own, the fourth best forward on the 2011 team.    QHs is the first super-star since Luongo, and the first D we've ever had.   I'm a tough ranker when it comes to that,  Naslund did it for a stretch (top player league wide) the Sedins one year each,  but the only super-star forward we've had, was Bure.     All-time only QHs and Luongo and Bure that's it.  

 

Coffey was the second best offensive D-man in the game, and he actually paced Orr season to season...QHs name keeps popping up with those guys this year.   If 2011 had  a Coffey, or even a Niedermayer or Zubov, they win for sure. 

Edited February 2 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Just did a deep dive into the 2011 team stats, and comparing them.   AV was known for his defensive approach, "protect the zero zero tie" became a Meme.    Is Tochett doing it better?  2023-2024 team, is on pace to allow fewer w goals (178 verus 185), its goal differential percentage is far superior too, 59 in 49 games verus 77 in 82 games.    .94 goals per game over for 2011,  1.20 over for 2024.    That's a 30% increase so far this season.    3 x 3 doesn't count either, because shoot-out goals are added in these games.     It makes a minor difference in personal stats maybe, but not when it comes to this.  

 

Remarkable what having six legit NHL D-man can do for a team.   We haven't had that for over a decade now.    It helps every pairing take the load.     I can't say for certain this teams better (yet), the fact we can even discuss it, wasn't expected.     That said we are pacing them very closely.    And do think we romanticize that era, same we as the 94 team, and like that, over time, the good times look better.     Luongo and even Schnieder, had a lot do with 50 ROW,  and with making the D-core look great.    Demko helps with that too.    MG a did an interview this year, and discussed the Luongo contract, and how much losing and the fans reaction affected him.   Took it incredibly personal.   Also said the fans have no idea how good they had it with Luongo, but they will once he's gone.   And how that he made everyone look better out there.     He was that teams QHs.     And a huge part of why they won the presidents trophy.    Schneider went on to become a started and did admirably on some mediocre to bad NJ teams until he burnt out.   We had two  legit top five statistical goalies.     Of course that's going to make the team do better.  

 

Im with you on this group.   No time like the present.   We just got better with Lindholm, who would be on his own, the fourth best forward on the 2011 team.  

 

I looked up the voting for the awards in 2011.  Luongo finished 3rd for the Vezina, well behind Thomas and Rinne.  Ehrhoff was 8th in Norris voting.  Daniel was 2nd for the Hart.  Kesler won the Selke.

 

This year, Demko is the favourite to win the Vezina.  It's a two horse race between him and Hellebuyck.  Hughes is also the favourite for the Norris.  It's also a two horse race between him and Makar.  The Hart is wide open, but I think Hughes will be in the top 5 in voting.  Not sure about the Selke.  I think Barkov is probably the favourite but I am sure both Elias's will get votes, maybe both finish in the top 6-7.  So we have a real shot at two of these major awards and close with the other 2.  Not to mention Tocchet is probably the favourite for the Jack Adams award and Allvin for the Jim Grergory award.  Vigneault didn't win it in 2011 but Mike Gillis won.  

 

So there are so many similarities with the 2024 team and the 2011 team.  Right down to the potential trophy winners.  It's a great debate to say which team is better.  I think it's safe to say that if we win the cup this year the debate will be pretty much over...

[DrJockitch]

19 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I looked up the voting for the awards in 2011.  Luongo finished 3rd for the Vezina, well behind Thomas and Rinne.  Ehrhoff was 8th in Norris voting.  Daniel was 2nd for the Hart.  Kesler won the Selke.

 

This year, Demko is the favourite to win the Vezina.  It's a two horse race between him and Hellebuyck.  Hughes is also the favourite for the Norris.  It's also a two horse race between him and Makar.  The Hart is wide open, but I think Hughes will be in the top 5 in voting.  Not sure about the Selke.  I think Barkov is probably the favourite but I am sure both Elias's will get votes, maybe both finish in the top 6-7.  So we have a real shot at two of these major awards and close with the other 2.  Not to mention Tocchet is probably the favourite for the Jack Adams award and Allvin for the Jim Grergory award.  Vigneault didn't win it in 2011 but Mike Gillis won.  

 

So there are so many similarities with the 2024 team and the 2011 team.  Right down to the potential trophy winners.  It's a great debate to say which team is better.  I think it's safe to say that if we win the cup this year the debate will be pretty much over...

Jack Adams looks like a two horse race between Tocch and Knoblauch (sp?-who cares he is an Oiler).  Frankly that shouldn’t even be a question, Tocch should be a unanimous choice as should PA as executive of the year. 

If we/he keeps playing well I think Q will get Norris this year.  In part because of how dominant he was in the beginning of the year and how much of the national media picked up on what we know about the disrespect shown to him to date. 
I think Demko should win Vezina but doubt he will be higher than third in voting. 
I don’t think we have a legitimate candidate for the Selke this year. 
Quinn should be a clear favourite for the Hart even more than the Norris but it will go to MacKinnon or McDavid. 

[Jester13]

Don't forget Brock for the Bill Masterston Trophy. 

[Jeremy Hronek]

11 hours ago, Sergiomomesso said:

Why give up more assets to barely upgrade the RD with Anderson or Tanev? Especially if Willander is going the other way. Look at our team goals against. We aren’t top 5 because of Huggy and Hronek by themselves. 

Upgrading from Myers to Andersson is “barely?”

[Jeremy Hronek]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

We aren't going to trade any more high value assets this year.  Not worth it.  We already pushed the limit with Lindholm.  I can see us getting a depth right shot dman at the deadline and maybe a bottom 6 forward for insurance...

If we could somehow upgrade Myers to Tanev without having to give up any of Podkolzin, Willander, or Lekkerimaki, then I think it could be worth it.

[IBatch]

43 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Upgrading from Myers to Andersson is “barely?”

That's probably incorrect, but one thing that Myers has been good at, is amping his physical game up and that's not a bad intangible to have.   Especially the way our blue line is currently constructed.   Cole, Zadorov, Soucy and even Juulsen, make guys pay.   Plus Zadorov and Soucy can crush guys with legal hits.    Last years Myers 100% on board.   Really given the cost,  think we are better off adding a veteran depth D (think Luke Schenn from last year, if something like that is even available but don't suspect it is) and save some for next season too.     Myers also had some good postseasons with WNP. 

[DexM94]

get Tanev. 
you'll have 7 NHL Dman to rotate in playoffs, and we even not talking about injuries. 

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

That's probably incorrect, but one thing that Myers has been good at, is amping his physical game up and that's not a bad intangible to have.   Especially the way our blue line is currently constructed.   Cole, Zadorov, Soucy and even Juulsen, make guys pay.   Plus Zadorov and Soucy can crush guys with legal hits.    Last years Myers 100% on board.   Really given the cost,  think we are better off adding a veteran depth D (think Luke Schenn from last year, if something like that is even available but don't suspect it is) and save some for next season too.     Myers also had some good postseasons with WNP. 

From my vantage point, Juulsen has proven worthy of being a depth guy.  We already have a lot of 4-7 calibre dmen.  What we are missing in my opinion is a 2A/3 guy (ie too big a drop off between Hronek and whoever would qualify as being our 3rd best dman).  We have a legit #1 and #2 in Hughes and Hronek respectively but are missing the next guy in line.

[Coconuts]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I looked up the voting for the awards in 2011.  Luongo finished 3rd for the Vezina, well behind Thomas and Rinne.  Ehrhoff was 8th in Norris voting.  Daniel was 2nd for the Hart.  Kesler won the Selke.

 

This year, Demko is the favourite to win the Vezina.  It's a two horse race between him and Hellebuyck.  Hughes is also the favourite for the Norris.  It's also a two horse race between him and Makar.  The Hart is wide open, but I think Hughes will be in the top 5 in voting.  Not sure about the Selke.  I think Barkov is probably the favourite but I am sure both Elias's will get votes, maybe both finish in the top 6-7.  So we have a real shot at two of these major awards and close with the other 2.  Not to mention Tocchet is probably the favourite for the Jack Adams award and Allvin for the Jim Grergory award.  Vigneault didn't win it in 2011 but Mike Gillis won.  

 

So there are so many similarities with the 2024 team and the 2011 team.  Right down to the potential trophy winners.  It's a great debate to say which team is better.  I think it's safe to say that if we win the cup this year the debate will be pretty much over...

 

Dunno, the bits I've been reading have Hellebuyck as the favourite. He's been on another level this year playing behind a much less star studded team. But Demko's the other guy in the mix at this point, certainly. 

[The Lock]

I'm starting to hate these comparisons to 2011. We're not even in the playoffs yet. We haven't even had a run yet.

 

I refuse to compare at this point. I understand the passion but this is stupid.

Edited February 3 by The Lock

[Sergiomomesso]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:19 AM, Jeremy Hronek said:

Upgrading from Myers to Andersson is “barely?”

Andersson is not that good. And yes I’d rather have this years Myers than Rasmus Andersson atm. Like I said. We aren’t a top 5 Defence in the league just because of Huggy and Hronek. And the cost to acquire RA will not be cheap. It’s not like we have a bunch of draft picks this summer to give away. 

[TopChed]

Marginal upgrade for huge cost. I can't see trading for Anderson being a wise move. Realistically I'd be happy if we added another 5/6 guy like Burroughs he's played quite well in SJ.