The Inflation & Cost of Living Complaints Thread

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

 

 

What I stated applies to every business, not just Mickey D's. When wages go up, the price of whatever the employees produce needs to go up. When prices go up, consumers generally will buy less or stop buying completely. You can choose to be willfully ignorant of these simple economic realities if you want.

 

You'd have to show me an example of where raising minimum wage led to consumers stopping purchasing completely. 

 

For fast food, e.g., we can look at California - fast food places look like they expect to have to raise prices in the single digits (https://www.marketplace.org/2023/11/15/if-wages-go-up-do-fast-food-prices-have-to-go-up-too/). So is your McD's or whatever fast food price going up by $10 to $11 really going to matter to most peoples decision to go there? some sure, but I doubt most.

 

Balanced against people actually making a living wage and all the benefits that brings to our economy, it makes sense to me. 

 

We can always race to the bottom on wages, but we know that isn't all passed on to the consumer either. 

 

[aGENT]

10 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Fair enough.

 

My solution is then this:  

 

If society (in Vancouver) wants to take a more liberalized and laxed approach to drug use, then go ahead.  

 

They should privatize healthcare in that case so that their behaviour doesn't hurt/waste tax payers dollars. 

 

I'm with @King Heffy, just like booze, cigarettes and weed... Legalize it, regulate it and tax it.

 

We should add refined sugars to that list as well, which probably costs our health system more per year than all the hard drugs combined.

 

How much refined sugar you think you ingest Jeremy?

Edited December 28, 2023 by aGENT

[Rob Eh]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

You'd have to show me an example of where raising minimum wage led to consumers stopping purchasing completely. 

 

For fast food, e.g., we can look at California - fast food places look like they expect to have to raise prices in the single digits (https://www.marketplace.org/2023/11/15/if-wages-go-up-do-fast-food-prices-have-to-go-up-too/). So is your McD's or whatever fast food price going up by $10 to $11 really going to matter to most peoples decision to go there? some sure, but I doubt most.

 

Balanced against people actually making a living wage and all the benefits that brings to our economy, it makes sense to me. 

 

We can always race to the bottom on wages, but we know that isn't all passed on to the consumer either. 

 

I'm not paying $10 for irradiated floor slop.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Rob Eh said:

I'm not paying $10 for irradiated floor slop.

 

That sounds like a wise decision.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Rob Eh said:

I'm not paying $10 for irradiated floor slop.

 

Me either. Haven't had fast food in YEARS. What a waste of money. But millions of people do, and will continue to, even if it goes from $10-$11.

[Bure_Pavel]

11 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I'd be interested to see where that number came from....

 

According to what I can find out the birth rate in Canada for 2023 was about 10 per 1000 people.  https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/birth-rate

 

Simple math tells me that this is equal to about 400,000 births, yet if 98% of the 1,030,378 total you cited is immigrants, that leaves only just over 20,000 for births. Maybe you can clear up that discrepancy.....

Stats Canada

 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230927/dq230927a-eng.htm

 

I think you are forgetting about deaths. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Bure_Pavel

[Bure_Pavel]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

McDs spends about 20% on labor, so the idea that food would be too expensive with living wages isn't correct. They also vary prices by location where people are willing to pay more, so we know prices can go up by more than enough to cover wages, there isnt a fixed McDs price schedule.

 

Living wages will help with a more stable economy. 

Increasing wages does not stabilize the economy, prices of goods and services just increase with the wages as companies look to make the same profit margins. Its why housing and stocks are good places to invest your money in times of high inflation. Their prices adjust with inflation. To fix the housing issue they need to create way more supply while lowering demand.   

Edited December 28, 2023 by Bure_Pavel

[Jeremy Hronek]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

 

We should add refined sugars to that list as well, which probably costs our health system more per year than all the hard drugs combined.

 

 

 

You're subtly trying to imply that I'd have a problem with the above but I actually wouldn't at all.  

 

I'd agree with this wholeheartedly actually.  

[aGENT]

26 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

You're subtly trying to imply that I'd have a problem with the above but I actually wouldn't at all.  

 

I'd agree with this wholeheartedly actually.  

No, more so that sugar is in EVERYTHING.

[WeneedLumme]

3 hours ago, Tusk said:

You learn that in some fancy prep school or elite college?

I guess so, if you consider UBC to be an elite college, which is not totally unreasonable considering it is usually ranked as one of the top few dozen universities in the world.

 

However, if you are trying to imply that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth and never had to deal with reality, the fact is, while going to university I supported myself by working at 2 jobs.

 

And since I did study a number of economics courses while getting my degree, it is impossible for me to be as ignorant of economic matters as you would like.

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

 

 

What I stated applies to every business, not just Mickey D's. When wages go up, the price of whatever the employees produce needs to go up. When prices go up, consumers generally will buy less or stop buying completely. You can choose to be willfully ignorant of these simple economic realities if you want.

This is why AI and robotics are being developed for labor intensive industry. Capital investment such as this rather than escalating labor costs. Mind you this evolution goes beyond labor costs. Elasticity of demand is an economic fact.  

[RupertKBD]

12 hours ago, Tusk said:

Canadians are scared to have kids and condoms are much cheaper. And, Some of us die. Just to add to that. I have 3 boys and none feel financially secure enough to start a family.

 

Yeah, I got that.....I'm curious though....

 

Do you believe immigration is the reason that your boys don't feel financially secure enough to start a family?

[4petesake]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Why is the fast food price more important than a stable job?

 

A business model that only benefits yourself and shareholders is not a good business model. Paying shit wages and changing legislation to allow teens to work longer, later  and more hours so I can get cheap fast food is a shitty argument. 
 

 

[RupertKBD]

3 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

What I stated applies to every business, not just Mickey D's. When wages go up, the price of whatever the employees produce needs to go up. When prices go up, consumers generally will buy less or stop buying completely. You can choose to be willfully ignorant of these simple economic realities if you want.

 There's a balance point though....Wages go up and businesses increase prices to cover the cost of the wages to compensate, but there's a point where consumers will stop purchasing said products. That's what the business has to decide....The problem is, many of these large companies have stock holders that they're beholden to. It's the workers who make peanuts and have to take on a second job just to make ends meet that make it a profitable stock for investors.

 

What a livable wage does is balance out the workers' piece of the pie at the expense of the stock holders....

 

The economic reality is that paying a livable wage is a net benefit to the economy in general, whereas a highly profitable company is a benefit to nobody but the people who own stock in it.

 

Now, I realize that there are smaller companies that aren't publicly traded. Those companies have a decision to make. Do they pay a livable wage and charge more, or do they try and compete with Amazon, Walmart and Target? Generally, they choose the former and offer a higher level of service. This seems to work fairly well, or we wouldn't have any brick and mortar stores.

 

This is also where the consumer has a choice to make: They can shop at the mom and pop where they live, or they can order from Amazon. It depends how much money they have and whether they care about the local businesses closing, giving them no options besides online shopping.

 

Which brings us back to a livable wage being to everyone's benefit.....More money in your pocket means you're more likely to pay a bit extra and support businesses in your community and thereby boost the local economy....

[Tusk]

31 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Yeah, I got that.....I'm curious though....

 

Do you believe immigration is the reason that your boys don't feel financially secure enough to start a family?

no, I think its because I didnt live up to the Privilaged white guy standards that everyone thinks I have, and had to fight just to have a roof for them.

[RupertKBD]

Just now, Tusk said:

no, I think its because I didnt live up to the Privilaged white guy standards that everyone thinks I have, and had to fight just to have a roof for them.

 

FWIW, I don't assume anyone lives a privileged lifestyle.

 

A "white guy" myself, I didn't really start earning decent money until I was in my 50s and got some IT training....

[Elias Pettersson]

43 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

This is why AI and robotics are being developed for labor intensive industry. Capital investment such as this rather than escalating labor costs. Mind you this evolution goes beyond labor costs. Elasticity of demand is an economic fact.  

 

If governments plan to raise wages to living standards then a lot of small and medium sized businesses will be looking at cutting labour costs dramatically so they don’t go insolvent.  So, although it would be nice for the average employee to get paid enough to live in Vancouver, these companies will simply lay off workers or freeze any new hirings in order to keep their profits.  Using AI and robotics seems to be the way of the future to cut labour costs.

 

Increasing wages will lead to higher unemployment in the future.  Or companies will simply increase prices, which will lead to inflation.  Mixed together with our $1.3 trillion in debt we are looking at a lot of pain for the foreseeable future. 

[Bure_Pavel]

41 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Yeah, I got that.....I'm curious though....

 

Do you believe immigration is the reason that your boys don't feel financially secure enough to start a family?

It is not the only reason but it doesnt help as well, the new supply of housing has to out pace the new demand for housing. Canada has only been averaging 70k new single detached houses per year from 2018-2022 yet are now letting in 1,000,000 new people, it doesnt add up. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

McRat is just as expensive in the USA in the States that pay peanuts to McRat workers.

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If governments plan to raise wages to living standards then a lot of small and medium sized businesses will be looking at cutting labour costs dramatically so they don’t go insolvent.  So, although it would be nice for the average employee to get paid enough to live in Vancouver, these companies will simply lay off workers or freeze any new hirings in order to keep their profits.  Using AI and robotics seems to be the way of the future to cut labour costs.

 

Increasing wages will lead to higher unemployment in the future.  Or companies will simply increase prices, which will lead to inflation.  Mixed together with our $1.3 trillion in debt we are looking at a lot of pain for the foreseeable future. 

 

But you are valuing the business more than the employees. Business can and should be a productive partner, we are not here to serve them. 

[Boudrias]

24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If governments plan to raise wages to living standards then a lot of small and medium sized businesses will be looking at cutting labour costs dramatically so they don’t go insolvent.  So, although it would be nice for the average employee to get paid enough to live in Vancouver, these companies will simply lay off workers or freeze any new hirings in order to keep their profits.  Using AI and robotics seems to be the way of the future to cut labour costs.

 

Increasing wages will lead to higher unemployment in the future.  Or companies will simply increase prices, which will lead to inflation.  Mixed together with our $1.3 trillion in debt we are looking at a lot of pain for the foreseeable future. 

Or businesses and employees will move to where they can afford homes and businesses can afford to operate. Someone above was talking about shareholders and their piece of the income. Shareholders simply represent the cost of capital. Private companies don't have common shareholders and usually finance through the banks. All shareholders do is represent the cost of capital. If businesses don't pay shareholders then they will abandon the company as well. 

 

If employees cannot afford to live in their communities then the question of living wages can go far beyond the businesses they work for. The macro economy can have a bigger influence are their cost of living than the business they work for. Businesses stiffing their employees to save money is/can be a tired excuse used by others to escape their responsibility.   

[Elias Pettersson]

40 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

But you are valuing the business more than the employees. Business can and should be a productive partner, we are not here to serve them. 

 

Businesses need to make a profit or else they will go out of business.  Businesses don’t operate at a loss just so employees can have a job and make a living.  If wages increase then you either need to increase prices or cut back on labour costs.  Large multi billion dollar companies can afford to shrink profits but the small shops cannot.  So one sector of the hiring community is put out of business.

 

Most likely, we will see only the Amazon’s and Walmart’s of the world still existing in 5 years, while everyone else closes shop.  This will lead to higher unemployment and will cause a major recession.  Social services will also be cut to pay for the $40 billion interest payment on the debt each year.  We are in for some rough times IMO…

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Businesses need to make a profit or else they will go out of business.  Businesses don’t operate at a loss just so employees can have a job and make a living.  If wages increase then you either need to increase prices or cut back on labour costs.  Large multi billion dollar companies can afford to shrink profits but the small shops cannot.  So one sector of the hiring community is put out of business.

 

But a McDs or other chain  isn't a small shop, they are part of a big franchise machine. If your heart attack on a bun is 50 cents more so be it. It has to be a balance.

 

 

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Most likely, we will see only the Amazon’s and Walmart’s of the world still existing in 5 years, while everyone else closes shop.  This will lead to higher unemployment and will cause a major recession.  Social services will also be cut to pay for the $40 billion interest payment on the debt each year.  We are in for some rough times IMO…

 

Nah small quality places will do well. Eg there's far more artisan pizza places than ever before.

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said:

It is not the only reason but it doesnt help as well, the new supply of housing has to out pace the new demand for housing. Canada has only been averaging 70k new single detached houses per year from 2018-2022 yet are now letting in 1,000,000 new people, it doesnt add up. 

It's now over 1.7 million per year.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-population-grew-by-430-000-in-q3-1.6693405

 

430,000 in the last 3 months. No plan to actually house people though. The current steps, assuming they will work, will take years to come into effect.

[Elias Pettersson]

58 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

McRat is just as expensive in the USA in the States that pay peanuts to McRat workers.

 

Wages at McRat is all relative to where you live.  If you live in a city in the USA where the cost of a home is $400,000 versus $2 million in Vancouver, then it doesn’t matter if those workers in the USA get paid less.  I know lots of people who moved to Vancouver from other countries to work here and they were given massive raises to do so.  If you go to New York, your salary is dependent on where you live.  If you live in Manhattan you will make more for the same job than you will living in Queens.