To what extent is Jim Benning responsible for the Canucks’ current success?

[Ghostsof1915]

50 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Even Maggie the Monkey could have drafted Quinn Hughes.  He was BPA on the board and Benning's team was dog crap enough to have a top 10 pick so they could pick him.  So I don't give him credit for drafting Hughes, just like I don't give the Chicago GM credit for drafting Bedard.  Petey wasn't Benning's guy, he liked Glass instead.  He was "coached" into picking Petey.  Boeser was almost traded last year but because of Tocchet, he is now a 30+ goal scorer.  So, if Benning had remained, I am 100% confident Boeser wouldn't even be on the team.

 

As for Demko, he was a second round pick.  You take a shot at those and see what happens.  Demko is the only player that was actually developed by Benning, so at least I'll give him some credit for Demko.  Miller was a great trade that was mixed in with some of the worst trades in Vancouver Canucks history, so even Maggie the Monkey could get 1 out of 10 trades correctly.  But I will give Benning credit for making that bold move.

 

At the end of the day, this team was dog crap even with our core.  If it wasn't for Jim Rutherford the entire core probably gets traded at some point and we are rebuilding, which is what ALOT of people wanted.  Many people wanted to tank last year to blow everything up and draft Bedard.  Now that Rutherford has fixed everything in less than 2 years we are supposed to give Benning some type of credit for almost ruining this entire franchise?

Yet.....

Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, Arizona, and Detroit passed on him.

Buffalo drafted Dahlin.

 

So maybe it wasn't so obvious? Did anyone predict Hughes would be only 11 points behind Brady Tkachuk? And in fewer games?

I just wanted a decent puck moving defenceman. If we had drafted Dobson or Dahlin we might not have been as well off. But I certainly like those two defenders.

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Yet.....

Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, Arizona, and Detroit passed on him.

Buffalo drafted Dahlin.

 

So maybe it wasn't so obvious? Did anyone predict Hughes would be only 11 points behind Brady Tkachuk? And in fewer games?

I just wanted a decent puck moving defenceman. If we had drafted Dobson or Dahlin we might not have been as well off. But I certainly like those two defenders.

 

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback.  At #7 overall, he was clearly the BPA and any team in the #7 slot would have taken him, even Maggie the Monkey...

[Ghostsof1915]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback.  At #7 overall, he was clearly the BPA and any team in the #7 slot would have taken him, even Maggie the Monkey...

Yet that's basically what you're doing....

[DSVII]

A GM's job is more than drafting. He gets credit for the players, but not for their current success. Allvin and Rutherford had to competely rebuild the front office and coaching staff to get this going. Not to mention their shrewd trades to get out of some of Benning's deals, which unfortunately cost the second round pick this year that could have been used to get Tanev.

 

This team is succeeding in spite of the contract and prospect situation Benning put the team in. If Benning is still here, Petey isn't a 100 point player, that happened as soon as he and his coaching staff was replaced.

 

 

 

 

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

JB listened, and it wasn't Linden, it was his coaching staff.     Can't take that away from him, sure maybe he wanted someone else, but he went with Delorme's insistence.   Luck played into it as well.   Gradin in Sweden.   Without a call, none of that likely happened.     Of the top ten, only NYR had a modest interest in taking EP.   This is one thing, you we shouldn't be taking away from JB.   It's kind of silly to be taking way QHs too.    Can't have it both ways (criticizing his whiffs with JV and OJ, and on the other hand denigrating EP and QHs or invalidating it).  

As much as fans complain about the Canuck playoff history there are many teams in the NHL that are far worse. Look at Buffalo. What I appreciate most about Tocchet is his ability to educate fans about the game. He acts like the media and thusly the fans as one more player he has to educate. I really think Canuck fans can enjoy the game more as a result.

 

We have been to the SCF three times. Many fans dwell on the Bruins series but I actually hold more distain for the Rangers in '94. The Bruins were desperate coming back to Van. The amp up the physical game and between injuries and no push back the Canucks lost. The Rangers were a different manner. The NHL wanted the Rangers to win so badly you could taste it. The Rangers were a pretty sleezy group led by Messier. Never liked the Rangers going back to Ratelle, Hadfield and Gilbert.  

[Artemus]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

In fairness to Benning, Gillis left almost nothing in the pipeline when JB took over in the Summer of 2014 (although this isn’t Gillis’ fault entirely. Gillis went to ownership in both the summer of 2012 and 2013 asking permission from ownership to rebuild and was basically told to fuck off both times).

 

I think more important was the 2014 TDL after Kesler had asked for a trade and gave a list of, I think, 8 teams.

Gillis negotiated several good packages and apparently was going to accept the Anaheim offer, rumoured to have been Shea Theodore, Rikard Rakell and the higher 1st draft pick (Ottawa's). FA vetoed this trade, instead opting to keep Kesler and to try and make the playoffs and gain the revenue that would have come with them.

Of course we didn't make the playoffs.

Kesler was traded in the summer of 2014 for the Anaheim equivalent of the venerable and much laughed at CDC trade suggestion of Raymond, Ballard and a late first. This trade being IIRC ..... Kesler for ....... Bonino - a second/third line tweener, Sbisa - a 6/7 replacement level defenseman and a late 1st (McCann).

 

Team management was disfunctional with FA inserting himself actively in the day-to-day decision making, like he was the defacto POHO.

 

I remember a tweet in response to this 2014 TDL trade almost happening, I think it was Luongo's, where he wrote something like "You think that you are out, then they pull you back in".

I think a line from the Godfather movie.

 

 

[HKSR]

27 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback.  At #7 overall, he was clearly the BPA and any team in the #7 slot would have taken him, even Maggie the Monkey...

He wasn't though.  I posted the consensus combined rankings from Bob McKenzie and others in a reply earlier in this thread.  Quinn was #8 on McKenzie's list, and even down to #10 on the Sportsnet list.  Dobson and Bouchard were right there with him. 

 

Benning could have picked any 3 of those defencemen.  He chose the right one.

[DSVII]

7 minutes ago, HKSR said:

He wasn't though.  I posted the consensus combined rankings from Bob McKenzie and others in a reply earlier in this thread.  Quinn was #8 on McKenzie's list, and even down to #10 on the Sportsnet list.  Dobson and Bouchard were right there with him. 

 

Benning could have picked any 3 of those defencemen.  He chose the right one.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018-draft/2018-nhl-draft-rankings

 

More often than not, Hughes was ranked above the other two. And he was a fan favorite, at least from my POV, going into the draft. i still remember high fiving a buddy at the bar when we made that pick haha.

 

Dobson would not have been a disaster as a second choice either, he's currently a +1 PPG top pairing RHD. 

 

 

[spook007]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

it's like you guys are defending his QH pick as a stroke of genius.. when really it was just pure luck.. if detroit took hughes we would have been looking at another bust with zadina.. 

 

That is very possible, but we will never know... Could have had another pick on his mind.

The fact he wanted Hughes, suggest he was right in his evaluation. Lucky or not...

 

Its not defence as I could care less, but lets not change history to accommodate for our views on a very average (even below average GM).

If we complain about him picking JV and OJ, then we should acknowledge him picking Brock, Hughes and Petey, as well Demko and Hogs.

 

Whether he was lucky is irrelevant... You gotta have luck in all parts of being a GM... You gotta be good to be lucky.

 not that I in anyway compare Benning to JR/PA, who are miles ahead of him),

but PA got lucky, when we shifted Beau to Blackhawks for a 5th and then Zadorov became available, and we got him for the 5th...

This became possible because PA shifted cap, even though he didn't know this opportunity would present itself. So good and lucky.

 

 

 

 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, DSVII said:

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018-draft/2018-nhl-draft-rankings

 

More often than not, Hughes was ranked above the other two. And he was a fan favorite, at least from my POV, going into the draft. i still remember high fiving a buddy at the bar when we made that pick haha.

 

Dobson would not have been a disaster as a second choice either, he's currently a +1 PPG top pairing RHD. 

 

 

 

At the time, any 1 of the 3 defencemen were considered interchangeable picks.  Dobson, Hughes, and Bouchard were all ranked around each other.  The fact Benning picked out Hughes from the 3, and while 6 other teams passed on him means Benning deserves some credit there.  People say Hughes was BPA, but it wasn't that cut and dry.  It could have been any of the 3 defencemen. 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, spook007 said:

 

That is very possible, but we will never know... Could have had another pick on his mind.

The fact he wanted Hughes, suggest he was right in his evaluation. Lucky or not...

 

Its not defence as I could care less, but lets not change history to accommodate for our views on a very average (even below average GM).

If we complain about him picking JV and OJ, then we should acknowledge him picking Brock, Hughes and Petey, as well Demko and Hogs.

 

Whether he was lucky is irrelevant... You gotta have luck in all parts of being a GM... You gotta be good to be lucky.

 not that I in anyway compare Benning to JR/PA, who are miles ahead of him),

but PA got lucky, when we shifted Beau to Blackhawks for a 5th and then Zadorov became available, and we got him for the 5th...

This became possible because PA shifted cap, even though he didn't know this opportunity would present itself. So good and lucky.

 

 

 

 

That's the important thing here.  A rational fan that sees things for what they are can see that Benning had his good, and he had his bad.  Overall he had more bad than good, which is why lots of people here can't stand him.

[Elias Pettersson]

32 minutes ago, HKSR said:

He wasn't though.  I posted the consensus combined rankings from Bob McKenzie and others in a reply earlier in this thread.  Quinn was #8 on McKenzie's list, and even down to #10 on the Sportsnet list.  Dobson and Bouchard were right there with him. 

 

Benning could have picked any 3 of those defencemen.  He chose the right one.

 

Quinn Hughes was the consensus #5 player in the draft.  If you actually understand BPA then that means when your turn is up you pick the guy that is the highest ranked that is still on the board.  That's what Benning did in this case.  The other donkey GM's didn't do that.  So at least I can give Benning credit for actually following the rules of the game when you are picking in the top 10...

 

2018 NHL Draft Final Consensus Rankings (thehockeywriters.com)

[DSVII]

6 minutes ago, HKSR said:

 

At the time, any 1 of the 3 defencemen were considered interchangeable picks.  Dobson, Hughes, and Bouchard were all ranked around each other.  The fact Benning picked out Hughes from the 3, and while 6 other teams passed on him means Benning deserves some credit there.  People say Hughes was BPA, but it wasn't that cut and dry.  It could have been any of the 3 defencemen. 

 

I wouldn't say Benning deserves no credit, some is fine sure. But there were enough publications that put Hughes over Bouchard and Dobson to make it a consensus, at least this was more apparent a consensus than the Pettersson pick.

 

Again, I thank the stars as well that Montreal selected for position (Kotkaniemi) over BPA same with Arizona. 6 teams passing on Hughes is more credited to luck than Benning unless JB specifically offered Montreal something to pick centre.

 

I also think it was almost a given we would select Hughes out of the three, considering that was the last draft Judd Brackett had any influence of the GM in the 1st round due to the changes Linden put in place before he left. And it's not because Judd is god, but because Judd's specialty and focus was in the USA hockey program where Hughes was pretty much dominating that draft year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HKSR]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Quinn Hughes was the consensus #5 player in the draft.  If you actually understand BPA then that means when your turn is up you pick the guy that is the highest ranked that is still on the board.  That's what Benning did in this case.  The other donkey GM's didn't do that.  So at least I can give Benning credit for actually following the rules of the game when you are picking in the top 10...

 

2018 NHL Draft Final Consensus Rankings (thehockeywriters.com)

That's fine, but we all know Dobson, Bouchard, and Hughes were all similarly ranked, which means any team that went up to that podium  could have had Hughes up in 3rd or down in 10th.  All we know is that 6 other teams passed on this near generational talent, but Benning did not.  As others have said, you can call it luck, but then don't accuse him of picking Juolevi and Virtanen, because those could easily be chalked up as bad LUCK then as well.

[spook007]

19 minutes ago, HKSR said:

That's the important thing here.  A rational fan that sees things for what they are can see that Benning had his good, and he had his bad.  Overall he had more bad than good, which is why lots of people here can't stand him.

 

Exactly....

[Ghostsof1915]

11 minutes ago, HKSR said:

That's the important thing here.  A rational fan that sees things for what they are can see that Benning had his good, and he had his bad.  Overall he had more bad than good, which is why lots of people here can't stand him.

Actually if Benning just listened to his President, the team would have been far better off. Linden wanted the team built the right way. Benning kept trying to fill holes by creating new ones. And basically painted himself into a corner. For every great move, he made two stupid ones. It was eventually going to catch up with him.

I'm thankful for the core. Whatever percentage you want to give Benning, I give credit for that. He just couldn't manage the cap, and covid made things worse.

 

Its sort of like Anaheim when Burke took over. Burke had two big breaks. He had the brother of one of the best defencemen in the NHL on the club. So it was an incentive to sign him there as a UFA. And Pronger's wife didn't like Edmonton. The previous GM loaded the team with a lot of prospects and players. So he was able to make a deal. So the Ducks had a 1-2 punch that was pretty much the envy of the NHL.

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, DSVII said:

 

I wouldn't say Benning deserves no credit, some is fine sure. But there were enough publications that put Hughes over Bouchard and Dobson to make it a consensus, at least this was more apparent a consensus than the Pettersson pick.

 

Again, I thank the stars as well that Montreal selected for position (Kotkaniemi) over BPA same with Arizona. 6 teams passing on Hughes is more credited to luck than Benning unless JB specifically offered Montreal something to pick centre.

 

I also think it was almost a given we would select Hughes out of the three, considering that was the last draft Judd Brackett had any influence of the GM in the 1st round due to the changes Linden put in place before he left. And it's not because Judd is god, but because Judd's specialty and focus was in the USA hockey program where Hughes was pretty much dominating that draft year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Canucks part ways with man who landed them Pettersson and Hughes - HockeyFeed

 

For those unaware of Brackett’s pedigree, he’s the man believed to be behind the team’s selection of young stars Elias Pettersson and Quinn Hughes. 

Canucks GM Jim Benning reportedly handed over the reigns of the team’s scouting to Brackett after swinging and missing badly on 5th overall pick Olli Juolevi back in 2016. Since then Brackett has convinced the Canucks to select Elias Pettersson over Benning’s preferred choice Cody Glass in 2017 and Quinn Hughes in 2018. It’s believed that Brackett was behind the Canucks’ controversial selection of Russian Vasili Podkolzin in last year’s draft, as well.

[spook007]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Even Maggie the Monkey could have drafted Quinn Hughes.  He was BPA on the board and Benning's team was dog crap enough to have a top 10 pick so they could pick him.  So I don't give him credit for drafting Hughes, just like I don't give the Chicago GM credit for drafting Bedard.  Petey wasn't Benning's guy, he liked Glass instead.  He was "coached" into picking Petey.  Boeser was almost traded last year but because of Tocchet, he is now a 30+ goal scorer.  So, if Benning had remained, I am 100% confident Boeser wouldn't even be on the team.

 

As for Demko, he was a second round pick.  You take a shot at those and see what happens.  Demko is the only player that was actually developed by Benning, so at least I'll give him some credit for Demko.  Miller was a great trade that was mixed in with some of the worst trades in Vancouver Canucks history, so even Maggie the Monkey could get 1 out of 10 trades correctly.  But I will give Benning credit for making that bold move.

 

At the end of the day, this team was dog crap even with our core.  If it wasn't for Jim Rutherford the entire core probably gets traded at some point and we are rebuilding, which is what ALOT of people wanted.  Many people wanted to tank last year to blow everything up and draft Bedard.  Now that Rutherford has fixed everything in less than 2 years we are supposed to give Benning some type of credit for almost ruining this entire franchise?

Without shadow of doubt JR/PA has been a revelation to this franchise....

When everything is said and done, they may very well be considered the management team in the history of the Canucks although there is still ways to go.

 

Still think, like you say Demko and Miller was home runs, and I also think regardless if coached into taking Petey, he made the pick. and he will be remembered as the person, who picked both Hughes and Petey.... Just like Burke will forever be remembered as the one drafting the Sedins.

 

Regardless, who cares, who did what, to get where we are now  

 

This is magic times, and thank the almighty JR/PA came in and took over... they've been immense.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Artemus said:

 

In my opinion, we prolly (sic) would have contended sooner if Francesco had kept Linden and let Benning and his clown sidekick Weisbrod go instead.

 

Maybe.... but it would definitely had been better, had we had a management team that agreed on the way forward... This was just an utter shit show.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

A GM's job is more than drafting. He gets credit for the players, but not for their current success. Allvin and Rutherford had to competely rebuild the front office and coaching staff to get this going. Not to mention their shrewd trades to get out of some of Benning's deals, which unfortunately cost the second round pick this year that could have been used to get Tanev.

 

This team is succeeding in spite of the contract and prospect situation Benning put the team in. If Benning is still here, Petey isn't a 100 point player, that happened as soon as he and his coaching staff was replaced.

 

 

 

 

This is basically it. Cheers amigo.

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Without shadow of doubt JR/PA has been a revelation to this franchise....

When everything is said and done, they may very well be considered the management team in the history of the Canucks although there is still ways to go.

 

Still think, like you say Demko and Miller was home runs, and I also think regardless if coached into taking Petey, he made the pick. and he will be remembered as the person, who picked both Hughes and Petey.... Just like Burke will forever be remembered as the one drafting the Sedins.

 

Regardless, who cares, who did what, to get where we are now  

 

This is magic times, and thank the almighty JR/PA came in and took over... they've been immense.

 

I agree Spook.  These Benning threads are kinda dumb though.  Nobody cares about Benning anymore except maybe a few posters on this board.  If we win the cup, I am sure we will get many more of these threads praising Benning for winning us the cup.  It's just stupid.  If Benning were still around, Petey probably demands a trade and we would have tanked for Bedard and started a full rebuild.  We all know this.  The team was going to shit with zero prospects, a terrible coach and management team, Abby in complete turmoil, and a salary cap mess that could never be fixed.  I just wish that Benning was fired prior to the OEL trade, so that we could have kept that 1st and 2nd round pick and not be burdened with the dead cap for another 7 years...

[Jim McMahon]

I won’t give him credit for shit. That man dragged the entire city of Vancouver and its fan base through a decade of hell and a no plan plan. I give full credit to the current regime and coaching who actually put this team on a white board, dissected the team, and found its strengths and weaknesses. As of now majority of our weaknesses are out the door. PA JR and our coaching staff has done more for this team in a year than our scumbag owner and Benning did in 10 effing years. I have zero sympathy for JB. Guy got his money. Now he can leave the sport of hockey alone before he ruins another franchise. (Unless it’s Boston or Toronto) 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Glad someone brought this up, he's done a lot of good for this franchise and his fingerprints are all over our star-studded core. He was basically responsible for all of our recent All-stars. He constructed this core with some top-10 picks and decent trade for Miller. He plucked Petey out of the blue when he had no right to. He took Hughes who somehow fell to us. In a redraft of both of their drafts they obviously go way higher.

 

It sort of ends there though. He made plenty of bad trades and signings which Allvin has done well to fix and polish up, but you can't deny that Petey, Miller, Hughes and Demko are all thanks to him.

[Jeremy Hronek]

3 hours ago, Artemus said:

 

I think more important was the 2014 TDL after Kesler had asked for a trade and gave a list of, I think, 8 teams.

Gillis negotiated several good packages and apparently was going to accept the Anaheim offer, rumoured to have been Shea Theodore, Rikard Rakell and the higher 1st draft pick (Ottawa's). FA vetoed this trade, instead opting to keep Kesler and to try and make the playoffs and gain the revenue that would have come with them.

Of course we didn't make the playoffs.

Kesler was traded in the summer of 2014 for the Anaheim equivalent of the venerable and much laughed at CDC trade suggestion of Raymond, Ballard and a late first. This trade being IIRC ..... Kesler for ....... Bonino - a second/third line tweener, Sbisa - a 6/7 replacement level defenseman and a late 1st (McCann).

 

Team management was disfunctional with FA inserting himself actively in the day-to-day decision making, like he was the defacto POHO.

 

I remember a tweet in response to this 2014 TDL trade almost happening, I think it was Luongo's, where he wrote something like "You think that you are out, then they pull you back in".

I think a line from the Godfather movie.

 

 

Well said.

 

Speaking of that Kesler deal, people hated it at the time, but in theory, the deal was actually pretty decent for the Canucks all things considered.  We landed Jared McCann and he would have been a good player for us had we developed him the right way.

[Mo Grit]

..... had we developed him the right way.

 

Exactly, and why so many of our picks were left unchecked to 'sink or swim' in a manner of their own choosing.

We had absolutely no system in place like we have now.  It costs.

Out of our top picks, only Demko earned his stripes on the farm.

Neither Brock, Elias or Quinn ever spent one second in Utica.

That they physically survived at all as under-sized rookies to become core players, shows great character.

Now ... Benning.

There is no way in hell ownership sanctions OEL's buy-out, even if it ever occurred to Benning as a way of out of his moronic trade.

JR says hold my beer.  Aqua had no choice but to listen to the guy he virtually stalked into accepting a job.

So, in a weird way, Benning shares some responsibility for our current success, if only negatively.

He never earned Aqua's respect, so we would have floundered similar to how we waited out the six years of Erikkson hell.

Now, enter Alvin.  He gets it.

This GM is top notch, our best ever. I never thought I'd rate someone over Pat, or for that matter, Gillis.  But here we sit, atop the whole NHL.

C'mon fellas, who among us thought, a year ago believed that we'd now be kicking arses every which way?

Not Benning for sure, but really he never had a chance.