To what extent is Jim Benning responsible for the Canucks’ current success?

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Twice i've felt we were going to win a cup after a trade.  First time was Mogilny.   Over the moon.   The Bure Federov Mogilny line was legendary like the KLM line.   Best Russia had to offer.   Bure and Mogilny!  No team could offer that in the league, both guys one player line's stick them with whomever.    

 

Second one was Luongo, and that one it truly felt like in the future we were going to win.   Luongo was a regular highlight reel for years by then, playing on some pretty bad Florida teams.    

 

As for Gretzky.   Wasn't Quin that mucked that up.   Gretzky described it from his point of view in his book.     A done deal.   So unprofessional, Orca entertainment, what a joke.   Seattle.  That's where they wanted the Canucks.   Maybe we dodged a bullet on that one, otherwise we'd be all supporting that version of the Canucks instead.   Gretzky had a massive offer from SJ, and it would have been easy for him to manage his LA life there.  But wanted to play for the Canucks.   They'd just lost to COL, in the first round (cup champs) without a second line center.   And they took them to task.   Gretzky wanted to play with Bure, Mogilny, Linden, Gelinas, McLean and old dogs like Babych.   Felt they were a young core that could win it all.    For younger fans, who didn't experience that era, you can understand why Orca entertainment and their ownership, was so wrong for the city.    
 

Thankfully Quin stopped the team from moving to Seattle.     Imagine this team getting to game 7 this year and losing by a goal.   Then in two years, adding one of the best wingers in the game, who was in his early prime.   Then getting a chance to add Crosby when he was 35.   Then the entire thing imploding.   Free the Skate.   Is a sentiment, that won't go away anytime soon.   For a variety of reasons. 

Well said.

 

I felt the same with the Mogilny and Luongo trades.  In fact, I remember saying at the time when we got Luongo "if we can't win a Cup with Luongo, I don't know if we will ever win a Cup".  That's until now... this season feels different.  It feels really special.  I think it's because we've NEVER had such elite talent in all 3 areas of the lineup at once -- forward, DEFENCE, goaltending.  There really is no hole in this lineup, maybe just tiny little cracks that could be filled.  Adding Lindholm filled the last significant hole IMO.  Now we just hope and pray that this team stays healthy through the entire playoffs. 

 

Now with Benning... all I can say is he is responsible for bringing in the talent, but where he failed miserably was the other areas... team depth, cap management, coaching staff, and player development.  PA/JR have done an incredible job repairing a lot of that including team depth, coaching staff, and player development.  It has yet to be seen how they handle big contracts... although they've done well so far with JT Miller, and Brock's deal looks pretty good at the moment.  Couldn't say that last year though.

[Ballisticsports]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

JB listened, and it wasn't Linden, it was his coaching staff.     Can't take that away from him, sure maybe he wanted someone else, but he went with Delorme's insistence.   Luck played into it as well.   Gradin in Sweden.   Without a call, none of that likely happened.   

Alf is correct, Linden had put  Brackett in charge of the draft, so JB couldn't control his job too and you are correct in JB wanted someone else and Delorme was a big supporter of EP

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Actually if Linden doesn’t force Benning to listen to the scouts there’s no Petey. 
The core piece Benning should be credited with drafting is Hughes. Canucks used to have a video of that draft and after Detroit passed over Hughes Wisebrod leaned over to Benning and squealed, “you got your guy”. With emphasis on the “your”. 
Benning refused to listen to his scouts with the club’s highest picks. He picked “his guy”. 

People like to discredit Benning because they hate him so much for the years of misery here, but Hughes is arguably the biggest home run this franchise has ever had.  Period.

 

Hughes was consensus ranked 8th (Bob Mckenzie's list which is extremely reputable as he has scouts' input):  https://www.tsn.ca/kc-1.1115400

 

Hughes was ranked behind other defencemen like Dobson and Bouchard.  So NO, Hughes was not considered BPA when the Canucks picked.  He was the 3rd BPA when he was selected.

 

Benning did extremely well here and landed us the greatest defenceman this franchise has ever seen.  Comparable to Bure in terms of impact at the position.

 

EDIT:  Here are a couple other rankings at the time.  Quinn Hughes was NOT the consensus BPA.  So credit where credit is due.  6 other teams passed on him. 

 

Ranked 10th:  https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nhl/news/nhl-draft-2018-prospect-rankings-list-top-best-players-big-board-class-rasmus-dahlin-andrei-svechnikov/1pmm1xi5njzb319rcydfzh2vbg

Ranked 9th:  https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sportsnets-2018-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings-lottery-edition/

 

Edited February 8 by HKSR

[Don Brodka Jr]

FUCKING ZERO!!!

[Metal Face Doom]

30%

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, Metal Face Doom said:

30%

I think that's fair.

 

20% for each of the following areas:

 

Talent Acquisition - 20% because he pretty much brought in this entire core.

Cap Management - 0% because of his flubs with OEL and Myers.

Team Depth - 10% because he brought in some of the depth.

Coaching - 0% because yeah, our coaching has been terrible.

Player Development - 0% because I think our top end talent found their own way, the same way McDavid has in EDM.

[iinatcc]

15 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said:

30%

 

.30% 

 

Fixed 

[iinatcc]

11 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I think that's fair.

 

20% for each of the following areas:

 

Talent Acquisition - 20% because he pretty much brought in this entire core.

Cap Management - 0% because of his flubs with OEL and Myers.

Team Depth - 10% because he brought in some of the depth.

Coaching - 0% because yeah, our coaching has been terrible.

Player Development - 0% because I think our top end talent found their own way, the same way McDavid has in EDM.

 

What about organizational structure and innovation? Seems like that was a net negative after Benning took over. 

Seems like he didn't care for the advancements on sports science Gillis pioneered. 

 

[HKSR]

Just now, iinatcc said:

 

What about organizational structure and innovation? Seems like that was a net negative after Benning took over. 

Seems like he didn't care for the advancements on sports science Gillis pioneered. 

 

I think the organizational structure and innovation are what drives coaching, cap management, and player development.  Organizational structure and innovation is a product of the staff, which then directly impacts those areas above.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

43 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Alf is correct, Linden had put  Brackett in charge of the draft, so JB couldn't control his job too and you are correct in JB wanted someone else and Delorme was a big supporter of EP

meh, I look at Delorme's "success" in his actual main area of responsibility in scouting (Western Canada) & have my doubts on this (and this is after DECADES).  European amateur scouts of the Canucks have always carried their weight for the franchise going back to the Milford days.

 

 

That guy is just ONE example of a LONG time NHL vet that played for the freaking Vancouver Giants that somehow didn't get drafted by us.

 

I personally think (just my speculation folks not stating it as a fact) that Benning was just 'pumping his tires'/polishing Delorme's ego" after probably demoting him into the background (or I guess Delorme wasn't one of the guys arguing for Virtanen's selection - a West Canadian boy).

Edited February 8 by NewbieCanuckFan

[nux_win]

To what extent do people like to cry over spilled milk?  GCG!

[NewbieCanuckFan]

5 minutes ago, nux_win said:

To what extent do people like to cry over spilled milk?  GCG!

Sure beats "is it time to fire Tocchet" posts in current game day threads.

[Strawbone]

This feels a bit like the butterfly effect, where a butterfly flapping its wings could eventually result in a long chain of events that causes a typhoon. If Benning had done anything differently, the team might be better off or might be worse off now, it's impossible to say. The current management team inherited a flawed roster, but obviously not irreparably flawed and with some great pieces to build around. They have done a masterful job bringing in new players and coaches and building a cohesive TEAM which is something Benning never seemed able to do. All I know is, whatever tortured path this team took over the past 10 years, it's all coming together this glorious season and I'm happy to give anyone and everyone credit because this team rocks and is making me very happy!

 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

This feels a bit like the butterfly effect, where a butterfly flapping its wings could eventually result in a long chain of events that causes a typhoon. If Benning had done anything differently, the team might be better off or might be worse off now, it's impossible to say. The current management team inherited a flawed roster, but obviously not irreparably flawed and with some great pieces to build around. They have done a masterful job bringing in new players and coaches and building a cohesive TEAM which is something Benning never seemed able to do. All I know is, whatever tortured path this team took over the past 10 years, it's all coming together this glorious season and I'm happy to give anyone and everyone credit because this team rocks and is making me very happy!

 

I love you.

[g_bassi13]

I don't think it's fair to discredit his job in building this core. It's easy to discredit him, because he's shown time and time again that he's prone to making idiotic moves, but the core is his.

 

It's not fair at all to just give credit for his drafting to the scouts alone. The scouts aren't the ones who make the picks, he is. He has the final say. If it was so easy to draft such players, why is it that only he has been able to assemble a young core like this? Even Brian Burke who probably had the the next best draft record didn't even complete a team this deep.

 

I completely agree that he bumbled everything, and there was near zero chance he actually built this team into a proper contender, but the work he put in is his. Totally a one step forward, two steps back kind of guy, but discrediting him for bringing in Demko, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, and Miller is not fair. He literally brought in all of our all-stars. Similar to Burke and Nonis setting up the 2011 team.

 

I was happy to see him go, and God knows he needed go, but I don't think it's the worst thing he was here.

 

Also, Allvin and Rutherford have been doing a way better job than Gillis did when it comes to supporting the core. They haven't been missing. Their moves have brought this team to where it is. Everything from their coaching personnel choices, to every support player they've made a move for. Letting Horvat go (and choosing Miller over him), picking up Hronek, filling our bottom 6, nearly rebuilding our defense from scratch. Judgement still pending, but I think the Lindholm trade was a slam dunk too. These are the kinds of moves that make a championship contending team. A big part of all of that though is accepting that they already had the core to make it, and not listening to the doom sayers screaming to tear the team back to square one before the season started.

[PhillipBlunt]

23 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

meh, I look at Delorme's "success" in his actual main area of responsibility in scouting (Western Canada) & have my doubts on this (and this is after DECADES).  European amateur scouts of the Canucks have always carried their weight for the franchise going back to the Milford days.

 

 

That guy is just ONE example of a LONG time NHL vet that played for the freaking Vancouver Giants that somehow didn't get drafted by us.

 

I personally think (just my speculation folks not stating it as a fact) that Benning was just 'pumping his tires'/polishing Delorme's ego" after probably demoting him into the background (or I guess Delorme wasn't one of the guys arguing for Virtanen's selection - a West Canadian boy).

A couple of other Giants that Gillis didn't draft.

Edited February 8 by PhillipBlunt

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, iinatcc said:

One point though Rick Dhaliwal mentioned recently how the Sedin's involvment with the AHL and NHL roster was an important factor in the team's success both in the NHL and AHl.

If true does Benning deserve credit for hiring the Sedins in front office roles? 

 

 

Well Burke drafted them so he should get a minimum of 50% of the credit...

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

To be fair, QHs went around where he was supposed too.   Before the draft it was Boqvist or QHs and Dobson or Bouchard.   There was no clear winner!   And Svecknikov versus Zadina, the same way it was Puljajarvi versus Laine.    Dahlin "the Next Lidstrom" was the clear number one pick.   Brady T,  was all over the map too.     "That's a small body gentleman" ... if QHs was in a re-draft, where do you think he'd go?

 

Nobody picked him.  And there was no clear consensus number "7" either.    If JB took Bouchard, i bet Burkie would have praised it.   EDM didn't even have his name ready.   Wasn't supposed to drop that far. 

 

This "dropping on his lap" dialogue is fair but also weak if you followed that draft.   Not everyone was happy about it. 

Sure but qh was always going to be the pick if he was available and he happened to be available coz Montreal threw a wrench by picking kk. Everyone else pretty much just took bpa. Besides 4 of the first 5 defenceman taken are all pretty damn good themselves. You have 80% chance of coming out with a top pairing defenceman. Dobson Hughes Bouchard are all top 5 Norris vote if the vote was today. Ppl here hate Bouchard but his xga is out of this world right now

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Well Burke drafted them so he should get a minimum of 50% of the credit...

Keenan gave him the assets to be able to acquire both of the Sedins.  You can pretty much give at least some credit even to the worst of drafters (Gillis) because if the team had an actual farm to provide supporting cast players, they likely wouldn't have been in a position to draft generational talent Hughes (or maybe even EP) because of draft position.

Edited February 8 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Strawbone]

20 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I love you.

 

Right back atcha! For the record though, I am happily married so no funny business 

[Elias Pettersson]

Even Maggie the Monkey could have drafted Quinn Hughes.  He was BPA on the board and Benning's team was dog crap enough to have a top 10 pick so they could pick him.  So I don't give him credit for drafting Hughes, just like I don't give the Chicago GM credit for drafting Bedard.  Petey wasn't Benning's guy, he liked Glass instead.  He was "coached" into picking Petey.  Boeser was almost traded last year but because of Tocchet, he is now a 30+ goal scorer.  So, if Benning had remained, I am 100% confident Boeser wouldn't even be on the team.

 

As for Demko, he was a second round pick.  You take a shot at those and see what happens.  Demko is the only player that was actually developed by Benning, so at least I'll give him some credit for Demko.  Miller was a great trade that was mixed in with some of the worst trades in Vancouver Canucks history, so even Maggie the Monkey could get 1 out of 10 trades correctly.  But I will give Benning credit for making that bold move.

 

At the end of the day, this team was dog crap even with our core.  If it wasn't for Jim Rutherford the entire core probably gets traded at some point and we are rebuilding, which is what ALOT of people wanted.  Many people wanted to tank last year to blow everything up and draft Bedard.  Now that Rutherford has fixed everything in less than 2 years we are supposed to give Benning some type of credit for almost ruining this entire franchise?

[EternalCanuckFan]

I think Benning definitely gets some credit for having brought together the core of this team. EP, Hughes and even Boeser were all picks made by Benning, and the JT Miller trade is one of the best the franchise has made. Garland would probably be a better acquisition story if it wasn't tied to OEL and if he hadn't been given a relatively lucrative contract (although I remember the contract being described as a good bet on a young player at the time it was signed).

 

I think Benning's biggest failing was with cap management, bringing in the right supporting pieces (including coaches), player development, and communication (which seemed to be a problem all the way through the organization). At least some credit should be given to the last management group for being part of establishing the Abbotsford Canucks instead of having farm teams on the East Coast which they never really got to capitalize on.

 

This current management group deserves a lot of the credit for the team's turn around this season though. They have been far more shrewd about supporting pieces, even if they have made some bets that didn't work out (e.g. Dermott, Kuzmenko to some degree). It took a little while but it has become clearer that this management group can not only plan effectively but also execute on those plans, and it's paying dividends across the whole organization.

[AnthonyG]

To anyone here thinking Benning was brought in to win a cup, I laugh.

He was brought in to rebuild and develop.

kept his picks for 5 years

stole JT Miller

signed cup winners and highly experienced vets for the youth to learn from and lean on.  He targeted cup winners in every spot on short term deals. 
figure it the fuck out. He was never here to win a cup. You dont change GMs mid rebuild if the talent coming through is looking promising.

JB did his job rebuilding excellently.
Think of it like baseball, you have your starting pitcher who gets you close to the big moment and then its in the hands of the closer. PA and JR reinvested in that 2021-22 roster meaning they believed in it and that was with no changes made. They said missing playoffs would be an utter failure. They had extremely high expectations of that roster that JB left behind for them. Ultimately this team is fuckin nowhere without the Miller trade and Garland right now is a huge difference maker in the bottom 6 and without his chemistry and possession numbers/production, this team loses 7-8 games easily as that line has resulted directly in about that many wins when the top 6 was struggling.

just fucking appreciate what we have and stop shitting on the guy who ultimately made this possible. No top 3 picks, no real trade chips to fast track a rebuild, NMCs that guys refused to waive, yet here we are. Right now this management group should be under the microscope because their mistakes is what will fucking waste the prime years of Pettersson, Hughes, Demko etc.
 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

10 hours ago, Canuck You said:

I've said this about Mike Gillis many times also but I guess that doesn't apply to him!?, He brought in all the right pieces to get us close to a cup but got blamed for bad drafting .

To be fair. Did he ever do anything to address the drafting until it was too late? Maybe instead of sleep doctors he should have revamped the scouting staff.

[Artemus]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

we prolly contended for a cup by now if he didn't bust on virtanen mccann (not a bust but traded for a terrible player in gudbranson and then double down by signing him to a mid term contract) juolevi and basically all the later picks outside of demko and hoglander.. and badly fumbled with the cap so we have nothing to sign EP long term and now facing a EP massive payday

 

In my opinion, we prolly (sic) would have contended sooner if Francesco had kept Linden and let Benning and his clown sidekick Weisbrod go instead.