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Analyze the following argument: The Canucks already have secondary scoring and can re-unite the Lotto Line


Jeremy Hronek

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Analyze the following argument:

 

"The Canucks can comfortably re-unite the Lotto Line since the Bluegar, Garland, Joshua line already produces enough secondary scoring.  Therefore, the idea of opposing teams just focusing their top shut down men and top pairing on the Lotto Line come playoff time is a bit of a moot point.  Furthermore, any combination of a 4th line involving Suter, Hoglander, Lafferty, Mikheyev, etc., should be able to continue to produce semi-consistent offence against whatever 4th line they play against.  Therefore, it's not vital that a 2nd line with Lindholm be able to produce offence.  As long as they can shut down and contain opposing lines, while still having the potential to produce offensively, then secondary scoring for this team shouldn't be a problem.  Re-unite the Lotto line and let our 3rd and 4th lines continue to provide the secondary offence that they've been producing all-season."

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3 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:


All great lines go through peaks and valleys do they not?  Peak WCE and Sedins/Burrows weren’t always on fire.

yeah but there was a reason they didn't go back to that well for 2 years or whatever. 

 

on top of that, if you're going to have 2 of your 3 best centers on the same line, it should at least be one lefty and one righty. 

Edited by tas
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We paid a tidy sum for Lindholm.  The idea is that he should be able to generate his own offence and play like the 80 point man he once was.  You know how fans are unhappy with Mikheyev right now?  He's a fantastic defensive player but we expect more than just defence.  We won't be happy if Lindholm can't score goals on 5v5 either.  I believe he can do it.

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Analyze the following argument:

 

"The Canucks can comfortably re-unite the Lotto Line since the Bluegar, Garland, Joshua line already produces enough secondary scoring.  Therefore, the idea of opposing teams just focusing their top shut down men and top pairing on the Lotto Line come playoff time is a bit of a moot point.  Furthermore, any combination of a 4th line involving Suter, Hoglander, Lafferty, Mikheyev, etc., should be able to continue to produce semi-consistent offence against whatever 4th line they play against.  Therefore, it's not vital that a 2nd line with Lindholm be able to produce offence.  As long as they can shut down and contain opposing lines, while still having the potential to produce offensively, then secondary scoring for this team shouldn't be a problem.  Re-unite the Lotto line and let our 3rd and 4th lines continue to provide the secondary offence that they've been producing all-season."

this is false... the garland line works because, they get the easier matchups... By the time the third line comes out no one is left to defend because they just dont have the same quality of defenders on the second,third and 4th line from other teams...

 

our third line is good no doubt... but they spending all their time defending miller and elias petterson... and whoever is left gets our third line... Look at TOI... our third line is not our first line...

 

we are deep thats why our 3 line dominates... and Garland is amazing player... and Joshua is definitely the second best on that line, but tonight he was the best...

next year Joshua is more important, but we can replace him if needed... 

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3 hours ago, PeteyBOI said:

this is false... the garland line works because, they get the easier matchups... By the time the third line comes out no one is left to defend because they just dont have the same quality of defenders on the second,third and 4th line from other teams...

 

our third line is good no doubt... but they spending all their time defending miller and elias petterson... and whoever is left gets our third line... Look at TOI... our third line is not our first line...

 

we are deep thats why our 3 line dominates... and Garland is amazing player... and Joshua is definitely the second best on that line, but tonight he was the best...

next year Joshua is more important, but we can replace him if needed... 

 

Our third line dominates because they have completely bought into the Tocchet system of relentless forechecking and taking possession away from opponents.  Today is an exception where some of their converted chances came from O-zone possession.  Most of the third line's scoring chances come from plays where the opponent had possession five seconds prior.  We destroy opponents with an aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck and Conor Garland has the skills to create some high-danger passes to the third forward in the high slot.

Edited by Miss Korea
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our 3rd line is great and have been amazing most of the season.. but secondary scoring? i dunno garland's 25 point 19 have came against a non playoff team.. so 6 points in 23 games against the playoff teams.. when it comes to the playoff that's like 1 point every 4 games.. not sure if we can rely on that for "secondary" scoring.. i rather get some actual secondary scoring and let the 3rd line dominate the other teams 3rd line even if they don't score and spread the scoring around so they don't just put the top shutdown line against our top line

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An upgrade on Suter in the top 6 would be great. 

 

I'm not sure how prudent it is to trade another 1st but Guentzel would really put this team over the top on paper. I do think we will be OK without adding another guy like that though.

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1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Our third line dominates because they have completely bought into the Tocchet system of relentless forechecking and taking possession away from opponents.  Today is an exception where some of their converted chances came from O-zone possession.  Most of the third line's scoring chances come from plays where the opponent had possession five seconds prior.  We destroy opponents with an aggressive 1-2-2 forecheck and Conor Garland has the skills to create some high-danger passes to the third forward in the high slot.

sure... teams are putting there best lines out against garland... i forgot that

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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Pettersson     Miller           Boeser

Höglander      Lindholm    Kessel 

Joshua           Blueger      Garland

Mikheyev       Suter          Lafferty 

 

I would try that when Kessel arrives…

those lines look deadly... we are truly lucky

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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Pettersson     Miller           Boeser

Höglander      Lindholm    Kessel 

Joshua           Blueger      Garland

Mikheyev       Suter          Lafferty 

 

I would try that when Kessel arrives…

I do not want Kessel. We just traded Kuz adding Kessel would send the wrong message IMO. 

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2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

our 3rd line is great and have been amazing most of the season.. but secondary scoring? i dunno garland's 25 point 19 have came against a non playoff team.. so 6 points in 23 games against the playoff teams.. when it comes to the playoff that's like 1 point every 4 games.. not sure if we can rely on that for "secondary" scoring.. i rather get some actual secondary scoring and let the 3rd line dominate the other teams 3rd line even if they don't score and spread the scoring around so they don't just put the top shutdown line against our top line

15 points from teams challenging for a playoff spot (NJ, NYI included) so far on the season.  3 points against TO, points each FLD game, same with NJ, points against CAR, EDM,  Dallas ... what more is he supposed to do?   He's not feasting on bottom feeders, like your post suggests, he's also getting points against "the favourites" and other contenders.    Best part about this line too, when they aren't scoring, there are hitting posts, hemming the other team in their zone, and not getting scored against.    

Edited by IBatch
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33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

15 points from teams challenging for a playoff spot (NJ, NYI included) so far on the season.  3 points against TO, points each FLD game, same with NJ, points against CAR, EDM,  Dallas ... what more is he supposed to do?   He's not feasting on bottom feeders, like your post suggests, he's also getting points against "the favourites" and other contenders.    Best part about this line too, when they aren't scoring, there are hitting posts, hemming the other team in their zone, and not getting scored against.    

i know i'm hard on him mostly because of his cap hit.. but if you are going to include teams challenging for a playoff spot then you might as well include all the teams still in it which is all but like 7 or 8 teams. i only count playoff teams coz that's the team they'll be facing in the playoff. since his arrival in vancouver 70% of his points have came against non playoff teams. you will prolly say well even the elite players will have majority of their points against the non playoff teams but the truth is most of them is at around 55-60%.. will he be able to perform in the playoff when the bench are shortened and sometimes having to go up against other teams top lines or top shutdown pairings? remains to be seen. i've seen too much of the bigger faster team deal with garland by just pinning and stapling him to the boards when he wants to just spin over and over again.

 

also i said they are playing great this is no knock on the 3rd line this is more we need to spread the offence so we don't have a lotto line and then a 3rd line for scoring.. that's not really much secondary scoring especially if they know your 2nd line is incapable of scoring then they just put a tougher line against the 3rd line then we might see them struggle too.

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1 hour ago, PeteyBOI said:

sure... teams are putting there best lines out against garland... i forgot that

 

See, this is why people completely misunderstand why this team is doing so well.  You think it's something as simple as line matchups.  It's not - it's about how coaching systems match up against each other.  Look at Rick Tocchet's approach.  The 2-1-2 forecheck is extremely aggressive and puts pressure on opposing defencemen, not forwards.  You need fast skaters to quickly put pressure on the two defenders and force a turnover.  From there, those two attackers need to be able to make a clean pass to the third forward or risk giving up an odd man rush the other way.

 

 image.png.7862110b5a359266a20854c61e9d18d0.png

 

 image.png.6c9040019035f9a43803c26a8337d1f5.png

 

boeser2-1-2.gif.dbb2525f0af2825851bf7afbb94a3693.gif

 

boeser2-1-22nd.gif.32933cfb3a70d5eacffa7c6c6bda4f4c.gif

 

Now of course, we're talking about Garland-Blueger-Joshua here, so here's a play from the other day:

 

image.png.66d7d19211e7245a6755a1c372e03900.png

 

image.png.51aca6461a063aa045c881b06e9c1245.png

 

joshua2-1-2.gif.27dd4a28d5fe9a67009226275269d2f3.gif

 

Here's another scoring opportunity where the third line forecheck nearly burns Kreider, Wheeler and Fox. 

 

joshua2-1-22nd.gif.b8afa5b41eb5e90b7d20c842ea551564.gif

 

This is the third line matching up against the Rangers' top pairing and top six.  If you don't understand what our forechecking system is and how it works, you'll keep trying to make baseless claims about Garland-Joshua feasting on leftovers.  And you won't understand why we're starting to get compared to this team below:

 

colorado2-1-2.gif.18c97551648b89e9c59d0b01e58af14b.gif

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4 hours ago, PeteyBOI said:

this is false... the garland line works because, they get the easier matchups... By the time the third line comes out no one is left to defend because they just dont have the same quality of defenders on the second,third and 4th line from other teams...

 

our third line is good no doubt... but they spending all their time defending miller and elias petterson... and whoever is left gets our third line... Look at TOI... our third line is not our first line...

 

we are deep thats why our 3 line dominates... and Garland is amazing player... and Joshua is definitely the second best on that line, but tonight he was the best...

next year Joshua is more important, but we can replace him if needed... 

Agreed that the Garland line gets easier match ups, but it ultimately doesn’t change the fact that the Canucks continuously and consistently get scoring outside of their top line. For example, Hoglander has 17 goals, while our 3rd line has often been our most dangerous line 5 on 5 (albeit against each matchups).

 

Therefore, I am of the belief that it’s not necessary if our 2nd line produces that much offense or not.  Just have Mikheyev-Suter-Lindholm be a shut down line and throw the Lotto Line back together.  Our 3rd and 4th lines will continue to produce even if opposing teams throw the kitchen sink at the Top Line.

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I'm no egghead when it comes to this hockey mumbo jumbo. I mean, I care somewhat about this stuff Truthfully, I'm just a fanboy through and through. I love my Canucks and whatever they're doing (Obviously this 2-1-2 thingy!) is working. The 3rd Line stays as it is as far as I'm concerned. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

I'm sure in the playoffs we'll see adjustments. I believe this coaching staff has the smarts to alter matchups as needed in games. 

 

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Pettersson     Miller           Boeser

Höglander      Lindholm    Kessel 

Joshua           Blueger      Garland

Mikheyev       Suter          Lafferty 

 

I would try that when Kessel arrives…

 

Kessel coming in definitely changes the dynamic some. Basically looks like Aman and PDG are out and relegated to13th and 14th depth guys which is fine. I'm curious how Kessel's presence on whatever line works for chemistry and such. Kessel seems adaptable and I'm sure he'd be happy to play where he's placed. 

 

Having no idea of his fitness, I'm guessing he'll be slotted into a spot that uses his offensive abilities. I dunno. The CFF egghead types can discuss such things. 

Thank you Eggheads. Where would we be without ya'!

 

Go Canucks Go!!!!!

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5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Pettersson     Miller           Boeser

Höglander      Lindholm    Kessel 

Joshua           Blueger      Garland

Mikheyev       Suter          Lafferty 

 

I would try that when Kessel arrives…


I think you’re going to be very disappointed if you’re expecting Phil Kessel to be a Top 6 calibre player at this juncture of his career.  I expect him to be a 13th forward if he makes the team.

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6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

So lotto line

Hogger Lindholm ???

The THIRD Line

And who is the fourth line?


Personally, I’d go:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Mikheyev-Lindholm-Suter (shut down line)

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

Hoglander-Aman-Lafferty / Hoglander-Lafferty-PDG

 

IF that doesn’t work, proceed with 

 

Hoglander-Pettersson-Lindholm

Suter-Miller-Boeser

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

PDG-Lafferty-Mikheyev

 

(as we’ve been doing).

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jeremy Hronek
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2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i know i'm hard on him mostly because of his cap hit.. but if you are going to include teams challenging for a playoff spot then you might as well include all the teams still in it which is all but like 7 or 8 teams. i only count playoff teams coz that's the team they'll be facing in the playoff. since his arrival in vancouver 70% of his points have came against non playoff teams. you will prolly say well even the elite players will have majority of their points against the non playoff teams but the truth is most of them is at around 55-60%.. will he be able to perform in the playoff when the bench are shortened and sometimes having to go up against other teams top lines or top shutdown pairings? remains to be seen. i've seen too much of the bigger faster team deal with garland by just pinning and stapling him to the boards when he wants to just spin over and over again.

 

also i said they are playing great this is no knock on the 3rd line this is more we need to spread the offence so we don't have a lotto line and then a 3rd line for scoring.. that's not really much secondary scoring especially if they know your 2nd line is incapable of scoring then they just put a tougher line against the 3rd line then we might see them struggle too.

Before this year, Garland hasn't helped or done enough, also hasn't been a big burden either.    6.07% when signed, hasn't changed much, gone down to maybe high 5's (gone up a couple million per year during covid).    Wouldn't say he hasn't done his job either, all over the middle six, some doghouse time under Bruce too.    One thing that's been consistent though, is effort, energy and he's not hurt the team defensively, not a cheater, draws the most or second most penalties as well.     It's absolutely fantastic, that Joshua's worked out, Tochett and staff really worked on him.   Eye test,  Garlands previous regular shift ... gets the puck in deep, does some dipsy doodling along the right side boards, waits for someone to go to the net (usually nobody there) and ends up taking a ridiculously low percentage shot near the goal line, twenty feet out, easy save, puck still in deep and changes.     His 5 x 5 production,  regardless of whom we've played, has been palatable since he arrived, although unspectacular.    

 

This year he's been a key member of the team.   Every single game, they do their job, some nights they hit posts, and don't get on the scoreboard.   Glad some of those goal posts are going in for him.  

 

50 points from a UFA making 4.95 is exactly what you're hoping for from second line players....Playing 3rd line minutes, what they are doing lines up with the pre-cap guys even.   That's amazing.   Are they just hot?   At this point, they've accomplished more than anyone expected.   Garlands exactly where he needs to be.   And with Joshua and Bluegar, getting the recognition they deserve. 

 

As a curiousity, for those interested, brought this up when we traded for OEL.   The trade was announced, and that one roster player would be coming with him.   ARI fans were panicking, that Garland might be the guy.   Most said not a chance, and that it would be someone else.    They were not happy when they found out.   Garland wasn't drafted his draft season despite having better stats than a lot of his peers.   Then went out and led the CHL in points the year after.    The talent was always there.    ARI drafted him as a flyer pick, but really it was a snub again.   There is a reason why he's got a chip on his shoulder, also a reason why he's a great teammate and never takes any of it for granted.   He's got a little Theo Fluery,  Martin St. Louis in him.   And he's in his prime now.   Lucky us. 

 

Edit:  For some perspective, from other teams ... TO media and fans were pretty vocal about how Lafferty had close to how many points Bertuzzi had when we played them last ... of course the stats are not the only thing and context matters.    In this context,  Lafferty only has seen some spot duty in the top six.     A month ago, Garland had barely averaged 13 minutes a game.  Now he's up to almost 14 minutes.  

Edited by IBatch
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14 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:


Personally, I’d go:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Mikheyev-Lindholm-Suter (shut down line)

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

Hoglander-Aman-Lafferty / Hoglander-Lafferty-PDG

 

IF that doesn’t work, proceed with 

 

Hoglander-Pettersson-Lindholm

Suter-Miller-Boeser

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

PDG-Lafferty-Mikheyev

 

(as we’ve been doing).

 

 

 

 

The Lotto line only needs to show up now and again.   At this point,  think EP and Lindholm should continue to play together to see if they can gain some chemistry.    

 

If Kessel can survive his fitness test, and or at least show the brass he can still manage the NHL,  maybe he can have spot duty in the top six..: ideally he could push Suter to the 4th line and replace Aman.   Probably  too much to hope for. 

Edited by IBatch
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