(Discussion) The Mikheyev slump

[HKSR]

40 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

It's morons that also want to sell the farm, all our draft picks, and prospects for one run.....

Remember Tampa looked invincible, and faced Columbus in the first round. And Columbus won?

But Tampa was able to keep going and win two cups in a row.

Who's selling the farm?  Acquiring guys like Kessel, Bogosian, Maroon, etc are all I think this team needs.

[Ghostsof1915]

3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Who's selling the farm?  Acquiring guys like Kessel, Bogosian, Maroon, etc are all I think this team needs.

Folks making proposals for Tanev, or any other defenceman or forwards, to make yet another big splash.

Not even figuring how we're going to afford what we've already got.

[HKSR]

28 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Folks making proposals for Tanev, or any other defenceman or forwards, to make yet another big splash.

Not even figuring how we're going to afford what we've already got.

Yeah I don't see us making another big splash.  We literally made the biggest splash in the league already.  We just need to give our top 6 some time now to build some chemistry, and fill out the roster with serviceable and experienced depth pieces.

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So if Mikheyev is complete garbage as some posters are saying, then how exactly do you expect to trade him?  Were we able to trade Boeser and Garland last year?  Garland was on the trade block and teams wanted us to retain $1.5 million. Pretty sure the same thing will happen with Mikheyev if he’s deemed unwanted in Vancouver. 

To set the record straight, I don't think Mikheyev is garbage at all.  He's an excellent PK/defensive forward, but is playing more like a bottom 6 guy right now.  $4.75M on the 4th line flashes bright red that we have an inefficiency in our cap.  With that being said, he's not being traded now anyways.  This is more of an offseason decision to find cap for Petey, Hronek, and Lindholm (among others).  If it's between losing Mikheyev, Garland, Lindholm, Hronek, Petey, or heck, even Joshua, I think it's pretty obvious who we should be looking to move out for cap space.

[TUSK v2.0]

3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

To set the record straight, I don't think Mikheyev is garbage at all.  He's an excellent PK/defensive forward, but is playing more like a bottom 6 guy right now.  $4.75M on the 4th line flashes bright red that we have an inefficiency in our cap.  With that being said, he's not being traded now anyways.  This is more of an offseason decision to find cap for Petey, Hronek, and Lindholm (among others).  If it's between losing Mikheyev, Garland, Lindholm, Hronek, Petey, or heck, even Joshua, I think it's pretty obvious who we should be looking to move out for cap space.

I think its a waste to lose Mik before finding where in the line he gets the Juice. Try him in Joshua's spot and put Josh up with Miller/Brock?

Maybe just try Mkheyev WITH miller and Brock? have we tried that?

He honestly has been looking better on the 4th line! New linemates! and if they have him with Laughs and Pizza boy, maybe they become the next power line

 

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, VintageActualCanuckfan said:

I think its a waste to lose Mik before finding where in the line he gets the Juice. Try him in Joshua's spot and put Josh up with Miller/Brock?

Maybe just try Mkheyev WITH miller and Brock? have we tried that?

He honestly has been looking better on the 4th line! New linemates! and if they have him with Laughs and Pizza boy, maybe they become the next power line

 

I wouldn't move anybody off that 3rd line.  It's WAY too good of a line in terms of chemistry.  To give you an idea, their numbers this season are comparable to VGK's high end 3rd line from last year of Reilly Smith, William Karlsson, and Miike Amadio.

[TUSK v2.0]

I sure hope we can re-sign most of them. This summer is going to be hard to watch.... If they want to move Mik in the summer they should put him with Miller and Brock for a bunch of games. But when we have a cup that will lessen the pain. just hope we keep our drafted OG's, Brock, Demko, Petterson. And the Boss JT.

[Blue]

12 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Mik is done.

Time to drop this contract.

We need the cap space for our ufa players.

Grab a box of kleenex and say bon voyage.

Or ltir at least.

Same was said about Joshua , Garlund ,boeser and Myers and pretty much anyone who's played for the team that has a slump.

 

Let players play through their struggles instead of selling low and botching all the time 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

To set the record straight, I don't think Mikheyev is garbage at all.  He's an excellent PK/defensive forward, but is playing more like a bottom 6 guy right now.  $4.75M on the 4th line flashes bright red that we have an inefficiency in our cap.  With that being said, he's not being traded now anyways.  This is more of an offseason decision to find cap for Petey, Hronek, and Lindholm (among others).  If it's between losing Mikheyev, Garland, Lindholm, Hronek, Petey, or heck, even Joshua, I think it's pretty obvious who we should be looking to move out for cap space.

 

The fact that Garland is playing well may hurt your chances that he stays and Mikheyev goes.  Garland might be alot easier to trade in the summer that Mikheyev and we might be able to actually get a player back for him without retention.  Something to consider...

[VegasCanuck]

So, something I've noticed with players who go through the type of knee reconstruction that Mikheyev went through. 

 

They often start out fast on return and then hit a wall. The only thing I can think of us lack of core training for an extended period of time while recovering. 

 

Unfortunately, we really need him playing effectively NOW, not next season after a full summer of training 

[HKSR]

54 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

The fact that Garland is playing well may hurt your chances that he stays and Mikheyev goes.  Garland might be alot easier to trade in the summer that Mikheyev and we might be able to actually get a player back for him without retention.  Something to consider...

That's fair, but I doubt PA/JR would keep an inefficiency in the lineup over a solid contributor that drives play.  It goes against what we're trying to build here.  Even if it means giving up a 2nd to move Mikheyev's cap out, it makes sense to do so in order to keep the big 3 of Petey, Lindholm, and Hronek while maintaining a top tier 3rd line.  Look at the extremes they went to in order to unload a major cap inefficiency in OEL... then you also see the Beauvillier move as well.  This management group doesn't make the EASY move. They make the RIGHT move. 

 

Also, I can't remember if I mentioned it in this thread or not, but our 3rd line is producing at a clip comparable to VGK's top tier 3rd line of Reilly Smith, William Karlsson, and Mike Amadio in last year's playoffs.  That is seriously impressive, and is a huge competitive advantage over most teams. 

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, HKSR said:

That's fair, but I doubt PA/JR would keep an inefficiency in the lineup over a solid contributor that drives play.  It goes against what we're trying to build here.  Even if it means giving up a 2nd to move Mikheyev's cap out, it makes sense to do so in order to keep the big 3 of Petey, Lindholm, and Hronek while maintaining a top tier 3rd line.  Look at the extremes they went to in order to unload a major cap inefficiency in OEL... then you also see the Beauvillier move as well.  This management group doesn't make the EASY move. They make the RIGHT move. 

 

Also, I can't remember if I mentioned it in this thread or not, but our 3rd line is producing at a clip comparable to VGK's top tier 3rd line of Reilly Smith, William Karlsson, and Mike Amadio in last year's playoffs.  That is seriously impressive, and is a huge competitive advantage over most teams. 

 

Beauvillier had an expiring contract.  We got lucky that Perry's contract was terminated.  Those situations don't happen very often.  OEL was a one time shot.  We aren't buying out any more contracts.  If you want to move an inefficient contract with 2 more years left art $4.75 million, it is going to cost you alot more than a 2nd round pick.

 

Also, we've already been through this, but Allvin isn't going to have an $11 million 3rd line.  It' just not cost efficient no matter what you say.  Joshua is the prioirty to re-sign as he is our only power forward, and quire frankly he is more valuable than Garland.  Garland will only stick around if he works under the cap.  If we are re-signing Lindholm then there is no room for a $5 million 3rd line winger, no matter how "efficient" the 3rd line is.  Adding a huge sweetener to get rid of Mikheyev  just to keep Garland is a Jim Benning move.  Nobody is that dumb.  Garland isn't Kucherov...

[Reznor]

I feel this team has either moved on too quickly, or at least gotten close to moving on when it turned out to perhaps not be quite so advantageous. We gave up a lot to trade Kuz (and I understand the situation could not continue), but he has more upside than Lindholm in the near long term. We moved Dickinson, now he's having a career year. We almost moved Boeser, who is also having a career year. There was prior talk of moving Miller who continues to perform at a very high level. 

 

Now, I realize the team is going for it this year, and sometimes to acquire assets that add production without going over the cap is required to make the team that much more competitive. Look at Monahan. Calgary paid a 1st to get rid of him during his lowest value, and then Montreal GOT a 1st to move him out. It's hugely about perception of a player at any given time, and it's an expensive proposition to move out underperformers without necessarily knowing if they will continue to underperform.

 

If they feel that Mik's knee will never heal properly and his speed is no more, then it makes sense to move on. It makes sense for our run this year, but also for the future. It makes sense to give up more to get him out. But if he is likely to return to form, I'm not so sure I want to give up more futures for short-term gain?

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Beauvillier had an expiring contract.  We got lucky that Perry's contract was terminated.  Those situations don't happen very often.  OEL was a one time shot.  We aren't buying out any more contracts.  If you want to move an inefficient contract with 2 more years left art $4.75 million, it is going to cost you alot more than a 2nd round pick.

 

Also, we've already been through this, but Allvin isn't going to have an $11 million 3rd line.  It' just not cost efficient no matter what you say.  Joshua is the prioirty to re-sign as he is our only power forward, and quire frankly he is more valuable than Garland.  Garland will only stick around if he works under the cap.  If we are re-signing Lindholm then there is no room for a $5 million 3rd line winger, no matter how "efficient" the 3rd line is.  Adding a huge sweetener to get rid of Mikheyev  just to keep Garland is a Jim Benning move.  Nobody is that dumb.  Garland isn't Kucherov...

Fact is, PA/JR found ways to create cap by dealing with inefficiencies in the lineup.  This is absolutely no different.  Mikheyev is not worth $4.75M, but he probably IS worth $3.5M.  We may need to pay a bit to unload his contract, but I'd be much happier doing that than dismantling our 3rd line.

 

Speaking of 3rd line, yes, we've gone through this, but do you realize how much VGK's 3rd line cost was for last year's playoffs?  You know, the one that was arguably 1 of the best, if not best 3rd lines in the entire league for a Stanley Cup champion?  $11,662,500.  They had TWO players making $5M or more on their 3rd line.  When you have a 3rd line producing 120 to 150 points for you, then $11M for that production is solid value.  You really gotta stop pigeon holing Garland as a 3rd liner.  That line has been our 2nd best offensive line in terms of production.  By definition, they've been our 2nd line. 

 

We've just been stuck in mediocrity with our 3rd line for so long that we seem to think a team should be building a 3rd line that only costs $5M to $6M.  Then we wonder why we are generating nothing from our bottom 6.

 

Source:  https://vegashockeynow.com/2023/06/10/vegas-golden-knights-game-4-stanley-cup-final-panthers-vgk-lines-notes-how-watch/

 

 

[MikeyD]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:08 AM, CanucksFan26 said:

Ilya Mikheyev is very quietly in a horrific slump. He has just 3 points in the 18 games played in the new year. He has not registered a goal since December 17th. His time on ice has been diminished and he’s been shuffled down to the 4th line at times recently. I’ve noticed quite often that I forget he’s even playing at times. He has a great two way game but it often feels like he has disappeared. 
 

I definitely don’t feel the media discusses him the way they spoke about Kuzmenko but I have to wonder if given his contract and recent poor play, if Kessel does come on board, do you all think Mikheyev could be out the door by the deadline? I would hate to see him go but we need to open cap for next year and I am wondering if he perhaps has also fallen out over favor with Tocchet?

It really bothers me when Snet 650 shields him from criticism. They even go as far as to say they'd get rid of Joshua over Mikheyev. It's been years here... He's not what we wanted from him and if his knee isn't close to healthy yet it's not going to get there next year. So many plays die on his stick and he has an absolute muffin of a shot now. 

[MikeyD]

Also comparing Mikheyev to guys like Boeser and Garland is silly. 

 

Boeser has skill and Garland has always been an engine. Those are two things that are much harder to get/find. Mikheyev's biggest strength is his ability to defend. We can find that very easily and at league minimum. His intangibles are a dime a dozen. 

 

I'd even argue Boeser would be good to trade away too as his skill at his cap hit can be replicated commonly in the league. He's very one-dimensional and is a support player who doesn't drive his line or have much of anything aside from his ability to score. I think at 7 million you can find somebody who can score and do other things on the ice in a complementary role. Finding another Garland is very difficult. Finding another Mikheyev is extremely easy. 

[Elias Pettersson]

33 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Fact is, PA/JR found ways to create cap by dealing with inefficiencies in the lineup.  This is absolutely no different.  Mikheyev is not worth $4.75M, but he probably IS worth $3.5M.  We may need to pay a bit to unload his contract, but I'd be much happier doing that than dismantling our 3rd line.

 

Speaking of 3rd line, yes, we've gone through this, but do you realize how much VGK's 3rd line cost was for last year's playoffs?  You know, the one that was arguably 1 of the best, if not best 3rd lines in the entire league for a Stanley Cup champion?  $11,662,500.  They had TWO players making $5M or more on their 3rd line.  When you have a 3rd line producing 120 to 150 points for you, then $11M for that production is solid value.  You really gotta stop pigeon holing Garland as a 3rd liner.  That line has been our 2nd best offensive line in terms of production.  By definition, they've been our 2nd line. 

 

We've just been stuck in mediocrity with our 3rd line for so long that we seem to think a team should be building a 3rd line that only costs $5M to $6M.  Then we wonder why we are generating nothing from our bottom 6.

 

Source:  https://vegashockeynow.com/2023/06/10/vegas-golden-knights-game-4-stanley-cup-final-panthers-vgk-lines-notes-how-watch/

 

 

 

So William Karlsson is a 3rd liner now?  Is this the same trick you used when you declared Braydon Point a 3rd liner as well?   

 

Also, Reilly Smith, the $5 million 3rd liner for Vegas, no longer plays for Vegas.  He signed as a UFA with Pittsburgh.  Guess why?  Because Vegas needed the money to sign other players, i.e. Ivan Barbashev who is a 2nd liner.  So, you literally just validated my entire point!!!   Thanks!!!

 

[HKSR]

26 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So William Karlsson is a 3rd liner now?  Is this the same trick you used when you declared Braydon Point a 3rd liner as well?   

 

Also, Reilly Smith, the $5 million 3rd liner for Vegas, no longer plays for Vegas.  He signed as a UFA with Pittsburgh.  Guess why?  Because Vegas needed the money to sign other players, i.e. Ivan Barbashev who is a 2nd liner.  So, you literally just validated my entire point!!!   Thanks!!!

 

Where did Karlsson play in that Stanley Cup final?  There's no trick.  It is what it is.  He played on the "3rd line", which made him a "3rd liner" according to you and others on here that want to call Garland a "3rd liner". 

 

It's just always the same garbage that I keep hearing about Garland being a 3rd liner.  We finally have a 3rd line that can compete with the best in the league, and now the goal is to dismantle it to keep a $4.75M 4th line defensive forward instead.  How is that rational at all? 

 

Vegas traded Smith because he was the weakest performing forward that made significant money on the VGK (a la Mikheyev) so that they could re-sign Barbashev  (a la Lindholm).  Pretty obvious. 

 

What you're trying to do here is trade Karlsson (Garland) instead of Smith (Mikheyev).  Pretty dumb move when you look at it clearly.

[Elias Pettersson]

31 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Where did Karlsson play in that Stanley Cup final?  There's no trick.  It is what it is.  He played on the "3rd line", which made him a "3rd liner" according to you and others on here that want to call Garland a "3rd liner". 

 

It's just always the same garbage that I keep hearing about Garland being a 3rd liner.  We finally have a 3rd line that can compete with the best in the league, and now the goal is to dismantle it to keep a $4.75M 4th line defensive forward instead.  How is that rational at all? 

 

Vegas traded Smith because he was the weakest performing forward that made significant money on the VGK (a la Mikheyev) so that they could re-sign Barbashev  (a la Lindholm).  Pretty obvious. 

 

What you're trying to do here is trade Karlsson (Garland) instead of Smith (Mikheyev).  Pretty dumb move when you look at it clearly.

 

Karlsson is a 2C in the regular season.  Stop trying to "make" him a 3rd liner like you did with Point.  It's laughable.  They pay him to be a 2C in the regular season.

 

So, you prop up the 3rd line of Vegas with Smith on it, now you are like, "well they really didn't need him after all, he's like Mikheyev".  

 

Smith isn't like Mikheyev.  He was like Garland because he was a key cog on their 3rd line for the playoffs and the regular season.  Garland is like Karlsson?  Is this satire?  

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Karlsson is a 2C in the regular season.  Stop trying to "make" him a 3rd liner like you did with Point.  It's laughable.  They pay him to be a 2C in the regular season.

 

So, you prop up the 3rd line of Vegas with Smith on it, now you are like, "well they really didn't need him after all, he's like Mikheyev".  

 

Smith isn't like Mikheyev.  He was like Garland because he was a key cog on their 3rd line for the playoffs and the regular season.  Garland is like Karlsson?  Is this satire?  

2C?  Where did Chandler Stephenson go?  You know, the guy that was 2nd in team scoring for VGK?

 

William Karlsson is the play driver of that 3rd line.  Not Smith.  Are you seriously thinking Smith was the guy that made that 3rd line tick?  You literally just called Karlsson a 2C because of how good he is, and now it's Smith that was the key cog?  Make up your mind lmao.

[Elias Pettersson]

17 minutes ago, HKSR said:

2C?  Where did Chandler Stephenson go?  You know, the guy that was 2nd in team scoring for VGK?

 

William Karlsson is the play driver of that 3rd line.  Not Smith.  Are you seriously thinking Smith was the guy that made that 3rd line tick?  You literally just called Karlsson a 2C because of how good he is, and now it's Smith that was the key cog?  Make up your mind lmao.

 

"Smith was the weakest performing forward on the 3rd line".  Your words.  Reality.  Reilly Smith had 26 goals last year and 56 points.  How can a player who scores 26 goals and 56 points playing 17 minutes a night be a weak performer?  Amadio only had 27 points last year.  Even Karlsson only had 53 points.  Smith was literally their most productive 3rd liner last year and they didn't bother to re-sign him.  Why?  Because they couldn't afford to keep him and had other priorities, that's why.

 

Garland is the equivalent of Smith, not Karlsson.  Karlsson is a centre who is a key player for Vegas, regardless of where he plays.  Comparing Garland to Karlsson is laughable at best...

 

Please name one GM not named Jim Benning who would trade William Karlsson for Conor Garland straight up?  Not even Jarmo is that dumb and he just got fired...

Edited February 15 by Elias Pettersson

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

"Smith was the weakest performing forward on the 3rd line".  Your words.  Reality.  Reilly Smith had 26 goals last year and 56 points.  How can a player who scores 26 goals and 56 points playing 17 minutes a night be a weak performer?  Amadio only had 27 points last year.  Even Karlsson only had 53 points.  Smith was literally their most productive 3rd liner last year and they didn't bother to re-sign him.  Why?  Because they couldn't afford to keep him and had other priorities, that's why.

 

Garland is the equivalent of Smith, not Karlsson.  Karlsson is a centre who is a key player for Vegas, regardless of where he plays.  Comparing Garland to Karlsson is laughable at best...

 

Please name one GM not named Jim Benning who would trade William Karlsson for Conor Garland straight up?  Not even Jarmo is that dumb and he just got fired...

READ my friend:  "Vegas traded Smith because he was the weakest performing forward that made significant money on the VGK"  What would trading Amadio do for their cap situation?  It'd be like trading PDG from the Canucks.  The point is it was between Karlsson and Smith.  No different than it is between Garland and Mikheyev.  The weaker of the 2 was Smith.  The weaker of the 2 is Mikheyev.  Pretty simple.

[Ghostsof1915]

My take.

Was Mik signed for a slightly longer term and cap hit? Yes.

However rewind to when we signed him. The team needed speed, and the team needed forwards that could play defence.

Did we overpay? Probably. But is he hurting the team? Not in terms of what he brings even with a recovering knee.

It's going to depend if someone with cap space wants to take a flyer on him or not. Gambling he might be better next two seasons.

Chicago needs all the help they can get. Even if it's for a 7th or future considerations, I'd be ok with moving him.

Or the team can wait until the offseason, or even preseason and see how he's doing.

We're not talking Myers here, who's gaffes (giraffes?) hurts the club.

[Elias Pettersson]

37 minutes ago, HKSR said:

READ my friend:  "Vegas traded Smith because he was the weakest performing forward that made significant money on the VGK"  What would trading Amadio do for their cap situation?  It'd be like trading PDG from the Canucks.  The point is it was between Karlsson and Smith.  No different than it is between Garland and Mikheyev.  The weaker of the 2 was Smith.  The weaker of the 2 is Mikheyev.  Pretty simple.

 

At the end of the day, you can't pay a 3rd liner $5 million who doesn't even kill penalties.  That is the bottom line.  You can say what you want that Garland isn't a 3rd liner, but he is.  That is the line that he plays on.  His ice time reflects that.  His PP time reflects that.  He's not a penalty killer.  And he was literally on the trade block less than 12 months ago.  You can call Mikheyev whatever you want, but at the end of the day, he plays in all situations.  His knee is holding him back right now and everybody knows that including the coach and the GM.  

 

In any event, nothing is going to happen until the summer.  And to be perfectly honest with you, all of this is a moot point because both Garland and Mikheyev will be out the door once their contracts expire, or before.  Neither player is getting re-signed, as we need to make room for all of our younger players who will be on ELC's.  We also need money for Hughes and Demko's new contracts.  $13 million for Hughes and $9 million for Demko...

Edited February 16 by Elias Pettersson

[VegasCanuck]

8 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Folks making proposals for Tanev, or any other defenceman or forwards, to make yet another big splash.

Not even figuring how we're going to afford what we've already got.

We're going to pull a Tampa and hold Soucy until the end of the season and then he magically gets better....