[PGT] Diving Jets at Canucks

[stawns]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Ok Yawns.

 

Like I've said before, your posting is worth reading to know what's not happening.

 

Oooooo yawns and Ron MacLean, you surd know how to cut deep with the wit.  Does that come naturally or did you go to school for that?

[Bob Long]

Just now, stawns said:

 

Oooooo yawns and Ron MacLean, you surd know how to cut deep with the wit.  Does that come naturally or did you go to school for that?

 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

Probably not, but it still doesn't change the fact he is a black hole just now finishing wise.

 

New boy/Hogs - Petey - Lindholm

Bains - Miller - Boeser

Dak (Lafferty) - Bluger - Garland

Mika - Suter - New boy/Hogs... 

 

 

 

I agree, but he got some good chances last game and fit in pretty well with Blue and garland, id probably keep him there as it still keeps them a line that drives the play.  That said, I wouldnt be upset to see Bains get a shot there too

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

Another zinger, you are a god among men

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

Another zinger, you are a god among men

 

And sadly, you apparently teach kids.

[Captkirk888]

35 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

I wouldn't be adverse for a system of fines for embellishment after the fact.  However, you would have only seen one in that game against Winnipeg imo, and it was called on ice

I assume you mean Schitfly. No way Pioink was embellishing when Hogs hit him chest level?

[Bob Long]

Just now, Captkirk888 said:

I assume you mean Schitfly. No way Pioink was embellishing when Hogs hit him chest level?

 

Yep that's the old diver. Poink outdid himself on that one 

[Captkirk888]

24 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

Maybe, but given the contract, I doubt it

They were able to trade Kuz who had less goals/points and is not as good defensively…

[Rocket-68]

50 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Even Ron MacLean said it happened.

[Artemus]

10 hours ago, stawns said:

 

There was nothing wrong with hit.  Hard and clean.......Lowry's a big boy and hits hard

 

 

 

That is the way I saw it too.

 

Was watching the whole play develop. The tube had a good angle.

Aman was skating straight up the boards, intent on making it to the red line and shooting the puck in. Which he did.

Lowry was angling him off and was coming from some distance away.

Aman was aware that he was going to take a hard hit. To his credit, he took it and bounced right up. Good play by both teams.

It was a hard hit. Lowry's skates came off the ice. Normal for a hard hit.

 

There is this culture in the NHL that every hard hit has to be challenged. Not a fan of this.

PDG immediately confronted Lowry, who is 4" taller and 40 lbs heavier, and have to give him credit for doing that.

Unfortunately, he got his lunch fed to him by the bigger player.  This I believe pissed off our players. No retribution for the Aman hit and a beat down of PDG.

 

Then to compound the issue, PDG got an "Instigator" penalty which I believe was also the proper call by the referees. Wish that the refs would call this penalty for everyone in the same situation. Would curtail this revenge fight after every big clean hit.

 

I see this whole game with the embellishments (outright diving) and the subsequent penalty calls as a good learning experience.

 

However, if I was a Jet's fan, I don't think I could proudly point out the superior acting skills of my team with pride.

 

I know that some posters have suggested that we have to also learn how to dive and draw penalties. I would lose all respect for those players so I hope that this is not the lesson that we take away from this game.

 

 

[-dlc-]

23 minutes ago, Artemus said:

 

 

That is the way I saw it too.

 

Was watching the whole play develop. The tube had a good angle.

Aman was skating straight up the boards, intent on making it to the red line and shooting the puck in. Which he did.

Lowry was angling him off and was coming from some distance away.

Aman was aware that he was going to take a hard hit. To his credit, he took it and bounced right up. Good play by both teams.

It was a hard hit. Lowry's skates came off the ice. Normal for a hard hit.

 

There is this culture in the NHL that every hard hit has to be challenged. Not a fan of this.

PDG immediately confronted Lowry, who is 4" taller and 40 lbs heavier, and have to give him credit for doing that.

Unfortunately, he got his lunch fed to him by the bigger player.  This I believe pissed off our players. No retribution for the Aman hit and a beat down of PDG.

 

Then to compound the issue, PDG got an "Instigator" penalty which I believe was also the proper call by the referees. Wish that the refs would call this penalty for everyone in the same situation. Would curtail this revenge fight after every big clean hit.

 

I see this whole game with the embellishments (outright diving) and the subsequent penalty calls as a good learning experience.

 

However, if I was a Jet's fan, I don't think I could proudly point out the superior acting skills of my team with pride.

 

I know that some posters have suggested that we have to also learn how to dive and draw penalties. I would lose all respect for those players so I hope that this is not the lesson that we take away from this game.

 

 

Wrong. The hit was totally described here:

 

 

 

And yet, Hoglander got penalized...how'd you feel about his clean hit(s)? That were called by a ref who was still stuck (Auger style) in the previous game?

 

It's horse poop. Even if you don't see it that way. Most do...

 

 

[RU SERIOUS]

19 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

He's played 87% of the games the last 3 years ... wrong again.

Not with the canucks........ wrong again!

[coolboarder]

12 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

The criticisms of the referees on this site are something else. It's just wild.

Like do people here honestly think by some insane coincidence all, and I mean like every single referee just happens to be the least intelligent human on the face of the earth? Are people really that self delusional?

 

I found this article which had a funny but true statement.

It's also fair to talk about refs who are consistent problems.

But it's always going to take a good deal of time to (a) identify them and (b) weed them out. And again, what are the alternatives to the current refereeing situation? Is there a hidden island somewhere where the human beings on it are far and away better referees than the ones we have now? To ask that question is to answer it. 

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/opinion-what-can-we-really-do-about-nhl-officiating

 

 

 

Opinion: What Can We Really Do About NHL Officiating?

Adam Proteau argues that as much as NHL officials should be held accountable, there are limited ways to improve each referee in a fast-paced game.

• ADAM PROTEAU
• MAR 15, 2023

Kris Letang and Dan O'Rourke.

Charles LeClaire-USA TODAY Sports

Last week, NBA star guard Fred VanVleet made headlines when he lashed out against NBA officiating. After a loss by his Toronto Raptors team, VanVleet did not mince words as he criticized the game’s referees.

“I think the jurisdiction and the power trip that we’ve been on this year with some of our officials in this league is getting out of hand, and I’ll take my fine for speaking on it,” said VanVleet, who was subsequently fined $30,000 for his comments. “Most of the refs are trying hard, I like a lot of the refs, they’re trying hard, they’re pretty fair, and communicate well. And then you got the other ones who just want to be (idiots) and just kind of (screw) up the game. And no one’s coming to see that. They come to see the players.”

 

VanVleet has every right to his opinion. And certainly, officials in all sports make numerous mistakes, which we hear about frequently in the NHL. But from our perspective, harping on NHL refereeing is a waste of time. There’s nothing wrong with noting errors officials make, and we do need to keep them accountable, but let’s get to the logical endpoint of all these complaints: what is going to be done about it?

Indeed, where are the improvement lanes for referees to take from here on? How are we going to ensure all the right calls are made all of the time? 

The answer, of course, is that there is no way to guarantee officials are perfect, and there’s not going to be a way, either now or down the road, to make them perfect. There will always be a degree of subjectivity in the interpretation of the rules, and that is not going to change.

This isn’t to say we can’t do better on the officiating front. This writer has advocated numerous times for the addition of a third referee in the NHL, one who would occupy an “eye-in-the-sky” position off the ice and could buzz in with a stoppage of play when they see some infraction the on-ice officials have missed. 

Using a third referee would be a notable change, but people said there would be terrible difficulties when the NHL went from a single referee for games to two referees for games, beginning in the 1998-99 season. For the six decades years prior to that, only one referee was the norm and was what everyone was accustomed to. But fans, players, coaches and officials all adjusted, and we’d argue the game is better officiated now because of that change.

 

The same could and would happen with three referees. But even then, mistakes would be made, calls would be missed, and people in all cities would begrudge officials for “bias” against them. To the contrary – fans have to recognize the increased speed of the game makes it impossible for hockey referees to get everything right. And if there was a legitimate case to be made for referees having a bias against a player or team, the league would move very quickly to address the problem. But most officials are admirably professional in all their tasks.

Is there some ego involved in player and coach engagement with referees? Sure, there is. But, after talking to many officials over the years, I think any perceived ego from referees is more of a defense mechanism than an exercise in superiority. Most of them have talked (off the record) about not wanting to have the opinions of players or coaches override their opinions and decisions, even when those opinions and decisions can be challenged fairly. 

 

You understand where they're coming from – it's human nature to want to be correct or at least feel that they're correct. And when you put the egos of officials into a head-on collision with the egos of players and coaches, the results can be messy and ugly.

It's also fair to talk about refs who are consistent problems. But it's always going to take a good deal of time to (a) identify them and (b) weed them out. And again, what are the alternatives to the current refereeing situation? Is there a hidden island somewhere where the human beings on it are far and away better referees than the ones we have now? To ask that question is to answer it. 

 

Like them or not, the current officials are the very best ones we have. We can train them all we want, but they’re not robots. (That said, MLB is experimenting with robot umpires, but hockey officiating is an entirely different animal. Artificial intelligence is on the rise, but it doesn’t work for hockey – at least, until there’s a massive leap forward from AI.)

As far as the idea of allowing referees to review more incidents goes, we’re of a split opinion. 

 

On the one hand, it's worthwhile to give refs the leeway to review more plays, but if it leads to the expectation they're always going to get things right, people are fooling themselves. The subjectivity of the position will always be there, no matter how much help is provided by emerging technologies of the game or increased boundaries of officials’ decisions.

 

Barking at the refs isn’t going to go away. But you’re best advised not to work yourself into a lather over the people in stripes. They’re going to make mistakes, and sometimes it’s going to affect one team more than another team. That’s not on purpose. Good teams, and great players, find a way to thrive in spite of missed or mistaken calls. 

Our referees are the best we have, and the game would be better if we get past this blind hatred of them. 

 

The answer, of course, is that there is no way to guarantee officials are perfect, and there’s not going to be a way, either now or down the road, to make them perfect. There will always be a degree of subjectivity in the interpretation of the rules, and that is not going to change.

I will highlight the bold here at end and I disagree.  The referee should never bow to their own interpretations on what a penalty is and what is not, ever.   That is the major issue here, the ref has its own interpretation on what the rules are nor the ref's vision on what the game of hockey looks like, ever.    They could easily disagree with the new rules and wouldn't call them at times just to spite them.   That is the fact that we do need to change the referee rotation every year, from the AHL to NHL to AHL to keep them honest.  The referee in the AHL is also capable of calling a NHL game.  

 

That is the bold that I use to emphasis that the ref needs to stop doing that.  We kept on forgetting that the ref is also a fan of game of hockey and has its own thinking because they grew up with the game of hockey and would still feel the pulse of hockey and has its own preference on favorite teams, players and hate for a certain teams.  You cannot tell me that they like a certain team and hate other.  All I know that majority of Canada doesn't really like Vancouver and that is a fact and they carry their bias with them when they start the career of a professional referee.  

[RU SERIOUS]

19 hours ago, Combover said:

It’s the system more than personal 

the predicable slow motion drop pass, cycle around the outside no net front 1 shot from the point doesn’t seem to be working. 

That's excatly what things have looked like the last few weeks and we've been winning games soley on the back of Demko and our defence that have been steady.

[RU SERIOUS]

7 hours ago, Lemon Face said:

Last time i checked Hughes dont block shots.Might be reason why he is never injured.

That's a very interesting and fair observation - now that you mention it.

Edited February 19 by RU SERIOUS
typo

[McIlhargey the Lesser]

What I saw being at the game, pretty close to the ice, is that on the whole the Canucks were the better team.

Their power play seems to me to have been the difference maker. And playing a little too aggressively in the third and allowing too many odd man rushes.

Had we scored on one of the power plays the Canucks might not have been so loose and probably the score could have been reversed.

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Only on adoption by the NHL. Machine learning has come a long way in the last few years, the tech itself for data gathering is pretty simple. 

 

Yeah, I've actually got a computer science degree centralized around AI. It's come a long way but not as far as the latest buzz has lead most people to think. ChatGPT is a joke and the ability for a machine to learn hockey rules and apply them directly in a live setting is a momentous task, as you've indicated. Things like determining emotion, intent, and clear rule setting is not so simple.

 

As @stawns mentioned 10 years away ... my first instinct was 20 and it would most likely be a very mixed bag of results leaving people just as upset as they are today. 

[Artemus]

2 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

Wrong. The hit was totally described here:

 

 

 

And yet, Hoglander got penalized...how'd you feel about his clean hit(s)? That were called by a ref who was still stuck the previous game?

 

It's horse poop.

 

When I saw the hit by Lowry, I didn't see any jumping motion.

Still photos showing Lowry's skates in the air, are to be expected from a hard hit. The follow through "after" effect of such a hit.

If the situation was reversed and it was a Canuck player making the same hard hit, I would be thinking "Good Play" and do it again.

 

Hoglander's penalties were different. Those penalties were drawn by Pionk embellishing what were good, hard plays by Hoglander.

I have little respect for Pionk's acting skills.

 

 

[Captkirk888]

4 minutes ago, Artemus said:

 

When I saw the hit by Lowry, I didn't see any jumping motion.

Still photos showing Lowry's skates in the air, are to be expected from a hard hit. The follow through "after" effect of such a hit.

If the situation was reversed and it was a Canuck player making the same hard hit, I would be thinking "Good Play" and do it again.

 

Hoglander's penalties were different. Those penalties were drawn by Pionk embellishing what were good, hard plays by Hoglander.

I have little respect for Pionk's acting skills.

 

 

Your skates don’t go in the air unless you jump. It’s simple physics.

[Frozen Water Walker]

4 minutes ago, Captkirk888 said:

Your skates don’t go in the air unless you jump. It’s simple physics.

Wow I missed a lot, a lot of bitching, whining, and calling out of this Canucks Team!

 

First from the Minny Game Summary: 

 

Canucks’ Top Performers over Last Five:

 

Elias Pettersson: 1g-6a-7p

Filip Hronek: 1g-4a-5p

Conor Garland: 3g-1a-4p

Nils Höglander: 3g-1a-4p

Elias Lindholm: 2g-1a-3p

 

Yeah right we should get rid of a guy that hits in all 3 zones and a top 5 in league scoring, maybe we should trade him for Pederson, you know Barry Pederson 

 

PDG takes on the legit heavy weight in the NHL who nobody wants to mess with because he is dirty mean & nasty skates in air nasty.

 

Hoagie is a thug and the defense made a couple of errors.

 

Miller rocks, Demko has a bit of a stinker, Brock is a stud who now has his 30 and is playing in all 3 zones, the Tocc Rocket putting it all together.

 

GCG

[Captkirk888]

12 minutes ago, Frozen Water Walker said:

Wow I missed a lot, a lot of bitching, whining, and calling out of this Canucks Team!

 

First from the Minny Game Summary: 

 

Canucks’ Top Performers over Last Five:

 

Elias Pettersson: 1g-6a-7p

Filip Hronek: 1g-4a-5p

Conor Garland: 3g-1a-4p

Nils Höglander: 3g-1a-4p

Elias Lindholm: 2g-1a-3p

 

Yeah right we should get rid of a guy that hits in all 3 zones and a top 5 in league scoring, maybe we should trade him for Pederson, you know Barry Pederson 

 

PDG takes on the legit heavy weight in the NHL who nobody wants to mess with because he is dirty mean & nasty skates in air nasty.

 

Hoagie is a thug and the defense made a couple of errors.

 

Miller rocks, Demko has a bit of a stinker, Brock is a stud who now has his 30 and is playing in all 3 zones, the Tocc Rocket putting it all together.

 

GCG

I’m not quite sure why you are quoting me? As I was disputing a claim that the JETS player Lowry did not jump when he hit Aman.

[Gawdzukes]

10 hours ago, spook007 said:

Happening in Football (soccer) now, and its a total pain in the butt...

The amount of stopage for VAR to determine if there was a toenail off side, was the tackle clean, did it touch his arm etc etc... is taking the fun out of watching the game. Some of it, is not in the spirit of the game. 
I do, however welcome retrospective punishment, for embellishment in particular. 
It can be almost impossible for the game refs to determine if an elbow or a stick has touch the face, when the head snaps back... those clear embellishments should be worthy of a suspension (a game). 
Its totally against the spirit of the game... 

 

I agree completely with this and I watch a fair amount of soccer too. Its ridiculous, especially La Liga lol. Part of sport is the life lessons that come along with it. While it's true some calls are poor or seem out of line with other calls upon review most often there are far more reasons you lost besides bad calls. There are usually many more opportunities where as a player different things could have been done all throughout the game to change the outcome, besides blaming the ref. It's funny as it's human nature to complain about refereeing. Even though I know these lessons well just about every team I know sits around after the game bitching about the refs and calls after the game. It's like watching tv shows about being in prison when they ask why they're in jail, they always say, I was innocent.  

 

There is a lot of subjectiveness to the job and as fans we miss a lot of what the refs are considering, or what may have been transpired between a player and referee. A good referee will talk to the players all game and let them know where thy stand. Often times a player maybe on 'their last strike" so to say when they get called for a weak stick infraction, which leaves some people comparing it to a worse infraction by the other team only moments before. In rare moments, they just whiff on a call like in the Chicago game. However, most calls are made and most players have committed an offence. At the end of the day both teams get penalties for and against. It's your job as a player to score on your PP's and kill off the penalties you get.

[Bob Long]

47 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Yeah, I've actually got a computer science degree centralized around AI. It's come a long way but not as far as the latest buzz has lead most people to think. ChatGPT is a joke and the ability for a machine to learn hockey rules and apply them directly in a live setting is a momentous task, as you've indicated. Things like determining emotion, intent, and clear rule setting is not so simple.

 

As @stawns mentioned 10 years away ... my first instinct was 20 and it would most likely be a very mixed bag of results leaving people just as upset as they are today. 

 

I'm thinking more about this kind of chip: https://www.st.com/en/mems-and-sensors/accelerometers.html

 

Combine this on equipment with some camera tech and I think we'd get somewhere fast.

[spook007]

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

I agree completely with this and I watch a fair amount of soccer too. Its ridiculous, especially La Liga lol. Part of sport is the life lessons that come along with it. While it's true some calls are poor or seem out of line with other calls upon review most often there are far more reasons you lost besides bad calls. There are usually many more opportunities where as a player different things could have been done all throughout the game to change the outcome, besides blaming the ref. It's funny as it's human nature to complain about refereeing. Even though I know these lessons well just about every team I know sits around after the game bitching about the refs and calls after the game. It's like watching tv shows about being in prison when they ask why they're in jail, they always say, I was innocent.  

 

There is a lot of subjectiveness to the job and as fans we miss a lot of what the refs are considering, or what may have been transpired between a player and referee. A good referee will talk to the players all game and let them know where thy stand. Often times a player maybe on 'their last strike" so to say when they get called for a weak stick infraction, which leaves some people comparing it to a worse infraction by the other team only moments before. In rare moments, they just whiff on a call like in the Chicago game. However, most calls are made and most players have committed an offence. At the end of the day both teams get penalties for and against. It's your job as a player to score on your PP's and kill off the penalties you get.

Very true...

It may be that we get more calls correct with Video assisted refereeing (VAR), but man its so flipping boring. 
People don't know, whether to celebrate or to cry for several minutes before goals have been confirmed. 
Just saw a couple of games over the weekend, where goals were called off for off side, and no hunan would ever be able to see if it was off or not, yet computor lines desided it was offside by a toe nail. 
its not in the spirit of the game, and we have to be careful, we don't ruin the excitement of hockey. 
its meant to be fasy and action filled, not stopped at every infringement. 

[Frozen Water Walker]

40 minutes ago, Captkirk888 said:

I’m not quite sure why you are quoting me? As I was disputing a claim that the JETS player Lowry did not jump when he hit Aman.

Sorry about that I thought I went to topic, my bad.