Appreciation thread for JT Miller

[Jaimito]

 

 

 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

8 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

I think it's important to compare where he was during the worst days to where he is at today.  The turnaround has been truly remarkable.  He has matured and improved his game to a whole other level, and he's done so at an age nobody expected.  He has gone from being untradeable to being... untradeable.

 

His worst days were the two years he was establishing himself as a Ranger in the NHL, he has steadily and progressively improved throughout his career as the years have gone by.

 

He has flaws, like we all have flaws sure and he was at times when the Canucks struggled one of the only noticeable players with heart and raw emotion, which at times was a distraction for him. The stick smack on the net or being vocal on the bench has been played to death and as more and more players speak about him as a teammate they to a man have nothing but good things to say. 

 

Bring in a coach like Tocchet and he has refined and cleaned up his game, learned to play and balance emotion, passion with hard work and discipline ( which is something he has developed every year ).

 

Suggesting he was at his worst or there was a place where he was truly struggling to the point his play this year is now suddenly remarkable is not really accurate. He has continued to play a strong game and it appears that Tocchet and Miller have a good relationship and keep him balanced or in check. Not remarkable just fine tuning a very talented and passionate person.

[Captkirk888]

30 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Just for clarity, it wasn't me that posted that lol.

Oops. I wasn’t meaning to put anyone down or throw anyone unda the bus. We are all Canucks fans after all!

[Hammertime]

3 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

It's as if you're worshipping him like he's your child who can do no wrong.

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

Just for clarity, it wasn't me that posted that lol.

 

Are you sure about that?  I can reveal the actual source if you want me to?  

 

No, actually it wasn’t you.  This time you are safe…   

[Snoop Hogg]

2 hours ago, luckylager said:

Sometimes you just gotta meet the challenge, roll up your sleeves and really grab ahold with both hands.

Well, he’s got the stamina to go all night long.

[Miss Korea]

2 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

 

His worst days were the two years he was establishing himself as a Ranger in the NHL, he has steadily and progressively improved throughout his career as the years have gone by.

 

He has flaws, like we all have flaws sure and he was at times when the Canucks struggled one of the only noticeable players with heart and raw emotion, which at times was a distraction for him. The stick smack on the net or being vocal on the bench has been played to death and as more and more players speak about him as a teammate they to a man have nothing but good things to say. 

 

Bring in a coach like Tocchet and he has refined and cleaned up his game, learned to play and balance emotion, passion with hard work and discipline ( which is something he has developed every year ).

 

Suggesting he was at his worst or there was a place where he was truly struggling to the point his play this year is now suddenly remarkable is not really accurate. He has continued to play a strong game and it appears that Tocchet and Miller have a good relationship and keep him balanced or in check. Not remarkable just fine tuning a very talented and passionate person.

 

That's fair.  I shouldn't say he was at his worst.  But I think it's more than reasonable to suggest he had a noticeable dip in performance to start the 22-23 season.  That dip was amplified by some well-publicized outbursts, testy interviews, and the overall losses piling up.  Why that's so hard for some people to admit is beyond me.  They treat him like some sacred cow whose past can never be criticized. 

 

You and I are agreement far more than the others here.  J.T. Miller absolutely refined/cleaned his game & balanced his emotions under Tocchet.  The implication here is that under Boudreau, Miller's game was a little less refined and a little unbalanced with his emotions.  What happens when you have an emotional person and you don't channel that into something productive?  You get Boudreau's 22-23 Canucks.

[DownUndaCanuck]

16 pure Miller time reacts is the most impressive thing about this post.

 

But yes he's been one of the best centers in the league this year and has been up there consistently the last couple of years. Only MacKinnon and McDavid have more points at center than him. He's outscoring Matthews and Draisaitl. That says a lot. He's certainly in the conversation for top-5 center in the league which is wild.  

 

I think he's going to become a beast in the playoffs as well, something we haven't seen yet, almost like Kesler vs Nashville.

[Toni Zamboni]

crazy how many peeps wanted to trade Miller

[Goose]

Not gonna lie, JT taking Bains under his wing is pretty F’n awesome

[Miss Korea]

4 hours ago, 4petesake said:

 

Superbrat?

 

In response to McEnroe's on-court outbursts during the Championships, the All England Club declined to accord McEnroe honorary club membership, an honor normally given to singles champions after their first victory. McEnroe responded by not attending the traditional champions' dinner that evening. The honor was eventually granted McEnroe as a repeat champion.

 

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

John McEnroe was infamous for his temper tantrums and smashing rackets.  I believe it helped him to be the second best player of his era and allowed him to win 7 gram slam titles.  The only player better than him at that time was Bjorn Borg...

 

Even with his worst temper tantrum ever, he still managed to win the tournament...

 

The day McEnroe threw one of his most famous tantrums (tennismajors.com)

 

They even made a movie out of his worst tantrums, further cementing his place as a tennis God.  His tantrums were so over the top that they became must watch tv.  McEnroe's matches usually had the highest tv coverage of any tennis matches...

 

Breaking point: how John McEnroe's biggest meltdown was turned into a movie | Film | The Guardian

 

McEnroe's temper tantrums made his legacy according to the creator of the movie...

 

“My life would have been completely different if I had won that match,” the world No 1 would later lament. But Faraut suspects it may have been the making of him. It gave his story some texture, ensured a lasting legacy. “It’s very hard to win everything,” Faraut says. “And art is not about achieving perfection. Losing that match showed McEnroe’s human dimension. He wasn’t a robot. He wasn’t a god. I see him as a superhero with a super weakness.”

 

You guys picked certainly the most famous player in tennis history known for outbursts.  But John McEnroe is an extremely poor example for showing how a player can overcome emotions.  Call it what it is: a MELTDOWN.  That's what the article calls it in your headline, and that's literally the quote you laid out: "He wasn't a god.  I see him as a superhero with a super weakness".  Now, McEnroe would never recommend against being emotional, but he is very clear about how his meltdowns did not help his overall play:

 

"And then the other obvious one, the amount of energy I wasted sort of complaining on line calls or whatever it is. They have this challenge system, so that's sort of taken that out of the equation, so I think I would have been a 20 percent better player but probably quite a bit, even more than maybe 40 percent more boring, because you wouldn't have had that whole thing."

 

I am a massive tennis fan, and I can say with certainty that smashing one's racquet is never a good sign for a player.  Novak Djokovic is the greatest player of all time, bar none.  He is an EXTREMELY emotional player who can win most of his matches just by having stronger nerves.  And yet, as any Djokovic fan will tell you... the only times he breaks his racquet is during matches he's probably going to lose.  It doesn't happen that often (he doesn't lose that often), but when it does, he's flipping his shit.  Deb absolutely knows this fact, so it's curious to see her dodging my point.

 

Now to bring this back to hockey, it's a completely different dynamic, of course.  I totally get that.  Tennis is a purely individual sport where in men's tennis the coach can't even interact with the player.  If a player wants to smash his stick, let them.  But when he starts taking it out on his teammates, that's when things become troublesome.  Am I saying Miller's doing that now?  NO.  I honestly don't understand why so many are getting riled up over me criticizing his game from over a year ago.  He has completely turned it around.  But some folks here are too ignorant to accept that Miller needed any improvements to begin with.

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

 

You guys picked certainly the most famous player in tennis history known for outbursts.  But John McEnroe is an extremely poor example for showing how a player can overcome emotions.  Call it what it is: a MELTDOWN.  That's what the article calls it in your headline, and that's literally the quote you laid out: "He wasn't a god.  I see him as a superhero with a super weakness".  Now, McEnroe would never recommend against being emotional, but he is very clear about how his meltdowns did not help his overall play:

 

"And then the other obvious one, the amount of energy I wasted sort of complaining on line calls or whatever it is. They have this challenge system, so that's sort of taken that out of the equation, so I think I would have been a 20 percent better player but probably quite a bit, even more than maybe 40 percent more boring, because you wouldn't have had that whole thing."

 

I am a massive tennis fan, and I can say with certainty that smashing one's racquet is never a good sign for a player.  Novak Djokovic is the greatest player of all time, bar none.  He is an EXTREMELY emotional player who can win most of his matches just by having stronger nerves.  And yet, as any Djokovic fan will tell you... the only times he breaks his racquet is during matches he's probably going to lose.  It doesn't happen that often (he doesn't lose that often), but when it does, he's flipping his shit.  Deb absolutely knows this fact, so it's curious to see her dodging my point.

 

Now to bring this back to hockey, it's a completely different dynamic, of course.  I totally get that.  Tennis is a purely individual sport where in men's tennis the coach can't even interact with the player.  If a player wants to smash his stick, let them.  But when he starts taking it out on his teammates, that's when things become troublesome.  Am I saying Miller's doing that now?  NO.  I honestly don't understand why so many are getting riled up over me criticizing his game from over a year ago.  He has completely turned it around.  But some folks here are too ignorant to accept that Miller needed any improvements to begin with.

 

I can’t speak for anyone else but I made no comment about JT. I found your premise interesting is all and wondered if there was such an athlete as you described. I believe Mac to be such a person. His overwhelming drive to succeed, his ultra-competitiveness and his complete lack of respect for tradition made him not only one of the elite of his era but gave him the bad-boy popularity/hate that helped him beat cyBorg. Classic good guy/bad guy stuff. Of course it cost him at times like when he got tossed at the (Australian?) open but overall it was part of his aura that he worked hard to create.

[Miss Korea]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

 

I can’t speak for anyone else but I made no comment about JT. I found your premise interesting is all and wondered if there was such an athlete as you described. I believe Mac to be such a person. His overwhelming drive to succeed, his ultra-competitiveness and his complete lack of respect for tradition made him not only one of the elite of his era but gave him the bad-boy popularity/hate that helped him beat cyBorg. Classic good guy/bad guy stuff. Of course it cost him at times like when he got tossed at the (Australian?) open but overall it was part of his aura that he worked hard to create.

 

He has openly stated on record that his meltdowns got in the way of his success.  Suggesting his tantrums contributed to his competitive success is completely untrue - but it has made for a wildly successful post-playing career.  The most successful tennis players of all time have also stated on record following losses (with meltdowns) that their emotions got the better of them and they lost control of the match. 

 

You can be ultra-competitive.  You can an overwhelming drive to succeed.  That's what it takes to be an elite player, and J.T. Miller has those qualities in droves.  But suggesting his past meltdowns made him a better player is wrong.  They were the negative manifestations of his competitive, emotional behaviour.  

[4petesake]

34 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

He has openly stated on record that his meltdowns got in the way of his success.  Suggesting his tantrums contributed to his competitive success is completely untrue - but it has made for a wildly successful post-playing career.  The most successful tennis players of all time have also stated on record following losses (with meltdowns) that their emotions got the better of them and they lost control of the match. 

 

You can be ultra-competitive.  You can an overwhelming drive to succeed.  That's what it takes to be an elite player, and J.T. Miller has those qualities in droves.  But suggesting his past meltdowns made him a better player is wrong.  They were the negative manifestations of his competitive, emotional behaviour.  

 

At no point did I say that his tantrums contributed to his success. I said that his ultra-competitiveness was part of what made him the elite player that he was. Ultra-competitiveness doesn’t always manifest itself at its most becoming and yes sometimes the occasional meltdown. I will agree with you that every player has to harness it to a degree.
 

This was your premise: 

“Honestly - have you watched any single athlete in any single sport completely lose their shit and somehow that ended up being a good thing for them?”

 

The specific meltdown a good thing? No, obviously not but the competitive fire - absolutely. You can go on YouTube and watch endless clips of Tom Brady losing his shit on teammates, his coaches, referees or anyone else that he feels hasn’t lived up to his expectations throughout his career. He seems reasonably successful, no?

 

 

[Miss Korea]

43 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

At no point did I say that his tantrums contributed to his success. I said that his ultra-competitiveness was part of what made him the elite player that he was. Ultra-competitiveness doesn’t always manifest itself at its most becoming and yes sometimes the occasional meltdown. I will agree with you that every player has to harness it to a degree.
 

This was your premise: 

“Honestly - have you watched any single athlete in any single sport completely lose their shit and somehow that ended up being a good thing for them?”

 

The specific meltdown a good thing? No, obviously not but the competitive fire - absolutely. You can go on YouTube and watch endless clips of Tom Brady losing his shit on teammates, his coaches, referees or anyone else that he feels hasn’t lived up to his expectations throughout his career. He seems reasonably successful, no?

 

 

 

You're still missing the point.  Tom Brady isn't at his best when he's losing his shit at his teammates.  That's what happens when he loses focus.  Nobody's saying Miller is inherently bad because he's emotional.  To bring this back to the tennis analogy, do you know how emotional and intense Novak Djokovic can become during matches?  He's fucking insane.... and he is by far the greatest player to ever live.

 

 

 

That's what he looks like after a win.  But here's what he looks during a loss:

 

 

Emotion in sports is a double-edged sword.  It can unlock a new level of intensity unmatched by rivals but it can also cause self-destruction and all I'm saying is that J.T. Miller suffered some of the negative effects of that edge in the past.

Edited February 26 by Miss Korea

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Still irritates me how vastly underrated he is around the league. I'd argue he's probably no worse than the 5th or 6th best centre in the entire league this year, yet most fans outside of Vancouver would probably rank him something like 13th.

He's not given his due (yet).     Get this,  NHL.com does weekly fantasy rankings.   JT. Miller is ranked 13th for forwards!  EP is 8th.   Their disclaimer, "standard fantasy leagues, goals, assists, plus minus, shots on net and hits".

.   My pool recently changed to boxes.  Petterson was in a better bracket of players, didn't take him.   Miller was in a bracket with Barkov, Huberdeau, Stutzle, Point and Kyrou.   My pool includes NHL.com's,  stuff without the plus minus (which would of course value Miller even higher this year), only difference,  two points for SH goals and GW goals.    Otherwise the same criteria.    This is a great example of Miller not getting the respect he deserves (NHL.com).   .10 points per hit and shot...those add up!   

 

 The best centers in the league since we traded for Miller,  McKinnon, McDavid, Mathews, Draisatl.    Know McDavid and Draisatl play with each other a lot more this year, however, Draisatl has shown on his own the past half decade plus, on his own he's a star too.   Too many 50 goal 100 point seasons to ignore.   

 

Next up IMO, Barkov, but he's part of a group of guys that include Crosby, JT Miller,  EP, Jack Hughes and maybe one other guy.  

 

This year,  JT Miller is a top five center.   He was during Bruce's bump too.   To me he was the player who put the team on his back and just went to work.   120 point pace under Bruce, and even during Greens demise, he was managing to help the team.    Was at the Ottawa game, when he went through four players end to end and scored a goal.   That's a rare ability.     Great playmaker.   Hits.   Fights when riled.   Forechecks hard, and Tochett's "non-negotiable's"  have reduced those high danger cross ice passes, and kept him backchecking.    This year, he's playing like a top five center for sure. 

 

Back to the fantasy ... JT Miller was one of my best picks.   

 

Edit:  As of right now, Miller is 3rd for centers in scoring this year, 4th in PPG.    Not bad for 27th in TOI. 

Edited February 26 by IBatch

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

I believe there are no excuses for poor play.  There were players who continued to excel even under Boudreau's disorganized coaching system.

 

I'm combining your arguments with Deb's here, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.  She said Miller's "backchecking was lazy because he was out of gas" and that "he gave up on plays every once in awhile and the optics weren't good".  But at the same time, you're both saying he was always a great player and he was always delivering.  

 

 

I am talking about last year under Bruce Boudreau.  I'm saying his level of play dropped during the first half of the 22-23 season.  Had to pull out my calculator, but he scored 38 points in 46 games before Tocchet.  After Tocchet got hired, he finished with 44 points in 36 games.  Now, 38 points in 46 games is nothing to scoff at, but his overall level of play was in a poor place, and his emotions were clearly getting in the way of his skill.

 

 

 

And yes, @-dlc- - I have seen Hughes smash his stick.  I even made a meme about it the very next day:

 

 

But no, smashing your stick is never a good thing in itself.  It only becomes a good thing when they turn that negative energy into something more productive.  You were always a big tennis fan - is that ever a good look for the player?  

Sure worked for John McEnro.   He made tennis fun, waiting for the next spaz.     Maybe before you time.   Joking aside, absolutely disagree,  if anything, JT Millers contract made it easier to trade him if that's what the team wanted to do, which they obviously didn't.   Still had one year left on his sweetheart 5.35.    I'm sure NYR are sad they didn't bump it up a notch to Schnieder with their offer.   
 

Found the not news worthy, news stuff about yelling and tapping his stick on the net goofy.   And have no problem with QHs blowing off some steam either.   
 

Was on the keep both train, Horvat and Miller.    Also didn't like how it became such a comparison.   It's happening again right now with EP.   Distracting.     Also don't be so naive that both Horvat and Miller were offered deals.   They were.   Miller wanted to be a Canuck,  and as was reported "left money on the table".   For Horvat.    Horvat was also offered a deal that began with a 7, he didn't like it.    So was traded.   

 

Not sure why you've taken an anti-Miller stance  on a thread that's about giving him his due.   Knowing everyone's paycheque's, is a double edged sword as a fan.    Makes me pine for the days pre-internet and salary disclosure.  

 

No he's not perfect.   Few players in the history of the sport ever were.   Maybe Mario,  Howe, Orr, Potvin and Borque.    Lidstrom couldn't throw a hit to save his life compared to those that could during his career.   Miller is better with Tochett for sure, not like he was chopped liver before, and he was doing this while being paid 5.35.    Said this on the EP thread early on, god forbid if EP signs for something like 12.   Because this fanbase becomes insufferable at times if the players cap hit, is disparaging.   Myers.   Edler before that.    So far aces as far as JT Miller is concerned, and unlike some RFA deals that for whatever reason are way to close to third or fourth contract money then they should be, JT Miller actually earned his raise the hard way.    

[Kevin Biestra]

28 minutes ago, IBatch said:

He's not given his due (yet).     Get this,  NHL.com does weekly fantasy rankings.   JT. Miller is ranked 13th for forwards!  EP is 8th.   Their disclaimer, "standard fantasy leagues, goals, assists, plus minus, shots on net and hits".

.   My pool recently changed to boxes.  Petterson was in a better bracket of players, didn't take him.   Miller was in a bracket with Barkov, Huberdeau, Stutzle, Point and Kyrou.   My pool includes NHL.com's,  stuff without the plus minus (which would of course value Miller even higher this year), only difference,  two points for SH goals and GW goals.    Otherwise the same criteria.    This is a great example of Miller not getting the respect he deserves (NHL.com).   .10 points per hit and shot...those add up!   

 

 The best centers in the league since we traded for Miller,  McKinnon, McDavid, Mathews, Draisatl.    Know McDavid and Draisatl play with each other a lot more this year, however, Draisatl has shown on his own the past half decade plus, on his own he's a star too.   Too many 50 goal 100 point seasons to ignore.   

 

Next up IMO, Barkov, but he's part of a group of guys that include Crosby, JT Miller,  EP, Jack Hughes and maybe one other guy.  

 

This year,  JT Miller is a top five center.   He was during Bruce's bump too.   To me he was the player who put the team on his back and just went to work.   120 point pace under Bruce, and even during Greens demise, he was managing to help the team.    Was at the Ottawa game, when he went through four players end to end and scored a goal.   That's a rare ability.     Great playmaker.   Hits.   Fights when riled.   Forechecks hard, and Tochett's "non-negotiable's"  have reduced those high danger cross ice passes, and kept him backchecking.    This year, he's playing like a top five center for sure. 

 

Back to the fantasy ... JT Miller was one of my best picks.   

 

Edit:  As of right now, Miller is 3rd for centers in scoring this year, 4th in PPG.    Not bad for 27th in TOI. 

 

Yeah for whatever reason fans and writers and voters don't find Miller "sexy" as a star.  Same thing happened to Mike Gartner most of his career...people just kind of noticed at some point in the 90s that holy crap this guy is almost at 700 goals.

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah for whatever reason fans and writers and voters don't find Miller "sexy" as a star.  Same thing happened to Mike Gartner most of his career...people just kind of noticed at some point in the 90s that holy crap this guy is almost at 700 goals.

Steady eddy.   Mark Rechhi and Dave Andrechyuk.    Mats Sundin even,  a layer below the layer.   Aside from some boffo early years, don't re-call Sundin ever blowing the doors off. 

 

Edit:  Checked.  Yep one 114 point year, 47 goals.   Other than that, a garden variety sort for his era (Sundin).    His stardom actually increased astronomically going to TO.   

Edited February 26 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, IBatch said:

Steady eddy.   Mark Rechhi and Dave Andrechyuk.    Mats Sundin even.  

 

Bernie Nicholls, Bernie Federko, Larry Murphy, Phil Housley, Brian Propp.  Ron Francis was another one kind of like Gartner.

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bernie Nicholls, Bernie Federko, Larry Murphy, Phil Housley, Brian Propp.  Ron Francis was another one kind of like Gartner.

Federko' induction, historically, was considered the bar lowering.   It was bound to happen, and that's ok.    Others (including Nicolls), could get their due yet. 

[snowman955]

Oh where would we be if not for Miller? I can't imagine how much value he has as a player for our team! He leads ,guides,mentors, has heart.

[-dlc-]

12 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

And you're ignoring  how poorly he played for that early half-season under Bruce Boudreau in late 2022.  I'm not talking about his 99 point season.  I'm not talking about this season.  I'm not even talking about that half-season with Tocchet last year.  I'm talking about a short period in which he regressed tremendously.  The team sucked, his overall play sucked, and his attitude only made things worse.

 

 

But you WERE talking about Tocchet last year. And suggested that JT got it together because of/after Tocchet. That it was a remarkable turnaround when it wasn't...it was him playing how he'd played previously.

 

So you've ignored his 99 point season and my point that he was already a great player....yes, he and the team unravelled as things fell apart. If anyone gave them a chance to pull things out of the funk, JT was the guy. His attitude reflected an unhappiness with the state of things and no one should've been complacent.

 

So don't bother. You won't convince me and you're back pedalling on your own initial points. When was he "untradeable"? That wasn't the case...the team had what they wanted in return for him and teams were trying to fleece them. They didn't bite. 

 

Yes, for a short period when our d was atrocious and coaching wasn't creating anything new, he struggled along with the team. But you've taken it out context to focus ON his attitude like it was a cause when really it was just a result of what was happening. Frustration set in and he wasn't happy. I'm glad someone had the nerve to react and didn't just settle in and offer excuses. He owned it.

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Federko' induction, historically, was considered the bar lowering.   It was bound to happen, and that's ok.    Others (including Nicolls), could get their due yet. 

 

I think he got inducted around the same time as Dick Duff who was a good player but not as good as Federko.  But yeah I've heard Bernie's name come up in commentary as the guy to debate.

[c00kies]

JT Miller reminds me of Kesler, and I think he'll show up and out-perform Pettersson and Lindholm in the playoffs.