[Report] Canucks re-sign Pettersson to 8 year contract @ $11.6M

[43isprime]

6 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

The comp isn't mac, it's Willy.

 

I'd agree that Pettersson is not even close to being a comparable to MacKinnon. And yet their salaries are only 1m apart. Curious isn't it?

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, 43isprime said:

 

I'd agree that Pettersson is not even close to being a comparable to MacKinnon. And yet their salaries are only 1m apart. Curious isn't it?

 

 

no, not really. 

[spook007]

1 minute ago, Hammertime said:

It's a good discussion with @HKSR I don't claim to completely understand it though I once had it explained to me when I understood it the way HKSR does. The bottom line is yes players that play for Canadian teams do pay a hefty bit more tax. But the tax they pay is based on where the games are played. The league simply wouldn't function at all if there was a 14.5 million tax penalty against Canadian teams vs say Dallas or Florida. 

Absolutely amigo... 

And following the debate with interest... It was just tongue in cheek, and a chance to use a good gif

 

I also responded to the way it was put forward... (saying something like "goes to show how much I know"...)

It definitely makes sense about the tax being paid, where the games are paid to minimise the differences in tax differences... 

Of course it wouldn't totally eliminate it, as some cities have higher taxes than others, but it would make the tax advantage less...

[Coryberg]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Zadorov was one of the best players on the ice against Boston, one of the best teams in the league.  He is not a #6 dman no matter how many times you want to scream this on this forum.  And I don't care how many minutes he averages.  We all know that Hughes eats up more minutes than most dmen, which takes away minutes from the others...

If he gets the 6th least minutes by a country mile he is the #6 d man no matter how many times you bury your head in the sand and deny it.  To say he isn't and say playing time doesn't matter is down right ignorant. 

 

To say that a 17 minute Dman who is about to turn 29 deserves 4.5 million over 6 years is absolutely laughable. 

 

 

Edited March 3 by Coryberg

[DeNiro]

4 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

 

Always keeping in mind of the dead cap of $4.7m (25-26 and 26-27) for contracts with more

than 2yr term.

That’s where having guys like Lekkeramaki and Willander on their ELCs during those two years will be key.

 

Can save a lot of money there.

[aGENT]

26 minutes ago, Coryberg said:

If he gets the 6th least minutes by a country mile he is the #6 d man no matter how many times you bury your head in the sand and deny it.  To say he isn't and say playing time doesn't matter is down right ignorant. 

 

To say that a 17 minute Dman who is about to turn 29 deserves 4.5 million over 6 years is absolutely laughable. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I have trouble seeing Zad for much over $4m, even considering rising cap and his "intangibles". I hope we retain him but we shouldn't be paying him (even low end) top 4 money.

[LillStrimma]

37 minutes ago, 43isprime said:

 

I'd agree that Pettersson is not even close to being a comparable to MacKinnon. And yet their salaries are only 1m apart. Curious isn't it?

 

Not even close? 
Didn’t you see how easy our defence handled Mackinnon… With your argumentation we can argue that Petey is paid two mill less than value. 

[higgyfan]

14 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

That’s where having guys like Lekkeramaki and Willander on their ELCs during those two years will be key.

 

Can save a lot of money there.

 

Bains, Podz and Raty would be nice additions as well.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, higgyfan said:

 

Bains, Podz and Raty would be nice additions as well.

I like these three, but do they play fast enough? Not foot speed but just the speed at which they process and move pucks. Lekkerimaki and Willander are way quicker in how they play. 

[Provost]

53 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

It's a good discussion with @HKSR I don't claim to completely understand it though I once had it explained to me when I understood it the way HKSR does. The bottom line is yes players that play for Canadian teams do pay a hefty bit more tax. But the tax they pay is based on where the games are played. The league simply wouldn't function at all if there was a 14.5 million tax penalty against Canadian teams vs say Dallas or Florida. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that none of these guys likely pay the amount of taxes folks are bandying around.  They are well off enough and have the representation to avoid most of their tax burden.  The discussions are just around top tax brackets which is super simplistic and doesn’t represent reality.

 

Things like a Retirement Compensation Agreement can make a Canadian tax burden equivalent or less than in the US.  Plenty of tax avoidance strategies…

 

 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Provost said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that none of these guys likely pay the amount of taxes folks are bandying around.  They are well off enough and have the representation to avoid most of their tax burden.  The discussions are just around top tax brackets which is super simplistic and doesn’t represent reality.

 

Things like a Retirement Compensation Agreement can make a Canadian tax burden equivalent or less than in the US.  Plenty of tax avoidance strategies…

 

 

 

Thanks! So there it is. It’s clear. If a guy doesn’t want to play up here it’s not because of taxes. It’s 100% because they want to live in complete anonymity. They don’t like being in a hockey town. F those types of guys. They can hide down south dodging bullets, huffing bleach and eating horsey paste with the Trumperdoodles knocking on their doors. 

[higgyfan]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I like these three, but do they play fast enough? Not foot speed but just the speed at which they process and move pucks. Lekkerimaki and Willander are way quicker in how they play. 

Lekker and Willy have always been best in class for skating.  They are ringers for the NHL.

 

Oftentimes, high hockey IQ and great positioning can disguise various skating issues.  Pods has

terrific north/south speed, but sometimes I question his hockey sense; maybe he turns out to

be a bottom 6 player.  Raty is a very smart player and I have no doubt he can make the NHL. He has

been projected as a 2nd line player, but he could also be invaluable as a 3rd liner (hopefully as a C).

Can't make a judgement on Bains, as I have only seen him play twice.  From what I have seen, he

appears to have great positioning and can handle the physical game in the NHL. Maybe 4th line

potential?

[HKSR]

24 minutes ago, Provost said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that none of these guys likely pay the amount of taxes folks are bandying around.  They are well off enough and have the representation to avoid most of their tax burden.  The discussions are just around top tax brackets which is super simplistic and doesn’t represent reality.

 

Things like a Retirement Compensation Agreement can make a Canadian tax burden equivalent or less than in the US.  Plenty of tax avoidance strategies…

 

 

 

Not what it sounds like.  An RCA is almost like a self funded pension plan.  The reason the tax burden is low is because it is assumed the custodian distributes the contributions after retirement when the individual has zero taxable income.  So if a player wants to take advantage of this, it just means spreading out their income over their lifetime to minimize taxes while hopefully the interest earned exceeds the inflationary factor inherent with such plan, otherwise they lose out in real terms.  

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/taxes/income-tax/trust-income-tax/retirement-compensation-arrangements-guide.html

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Not what it sounds like.  An RCA is almost like a self funded pension plan.  The reason the tax burden is low is because it is assumed the custodian distributes the contributions after retirement when the individual has zero taxable income.  So if a player wants to take advantage of this, it just means spreading out their income over their lifetime to minimize taxes while hopefully the interest earned exceeds the inflationary factor inherent with such plan, otherwise they lose out in real terms.  

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/taxes/income-tax/trust-income-tax/retirement-compensation-arrangements-guide.html

So as pointed out by a big hitter in the know Player Agent taxes aren’t an issue. And to add living up here while getting paid in US dollars actually increases take home by 30%. It’s a huge payday win for players to be up here. The go south for anonymity. Them’s the facts. Bow to the empties. 

[Bobby James]

So glad we resigned Petey and I am very surprised he did 8 years. Great news, love the guy. 

 

Hopefully they can work out a deal for Hronek. I'm a little nervous about his asking price, hearing lots of people saying between 7-8 million. That seems really high to me, but maybe I am underestimating him. He had a killer start with Hughes, but I don't personally feel like he's been driving a defensive pairing on his own very much (which is what I'd expect from a 7+ million Dman). Still curious to see how the negotiations will go. Hoping for something in the 6.5 range. 

 

Joshua is a guy I really hope they can hold onto. I wonder if he's looking for over or under 3 million per. 

 

As said above I like Zad too, but he really should be making number 5 Dman money. He isn't really a #4, but can fill in there when needed or can play up in that spot with an excellent partner. 

[HKSR]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So as pointed out by a big hitter in the know Player Agent taxes aren’t an issue. And to add living up here while getting paid in US dollars actually increases take home by 30%. It’s a huge payday win for players to be up here. The go south for anonymity. Them’s the facts. Bow to the empties. 

Not gonna argue my point any further because all of you will point to the player agent (lawyer) that knows tax better than accountants.  Not gonna sit here to defend my profession lol.

 

And like I said before, any tax reduction strategies available to players in Canadian cities will have similar or alternative arrangements in the USA as well.  It's a wash.

 

Edited March 4 by HKSR

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

When he's about to make 11.6m and the coach describes his play as sporadic, just okay, and says he needa to drive play, yes, he's disappeared. Do you actually watch the games or just refresh the scoring leaders page everyday?

 

So basically you are just focusing entirely on the negative. In fact, you're just focusing on the recent negativity of maybe since the all-star break at most.

 

How about all of the times when the coach praised Pettersson? I'm assuming though you don't want to add that in even though there's far more of the coach saying good things about Pettersson than there is the same coach saying he's mediocre.

 

You have to look at the overall picture dude. If you look at an investment that's overall on the increase and all you look at are the small declines every now and then, you're not getting the overall picture of that investment. If you have to literally cherry pick phrases the coach said to make an argument you don't really have much of an argument.

Edited March 4 by The Lock

[PistolPete13]

14 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Not gonna argue my point any further because all of you will point to the player agent (lawyer) that knows tax better than accountants.  Not gonna sit here to defend my profession lol.

Fellow CPA (Illinois) here. I’m not a fan of Walsh’s RCA strategy. In 2019 when Matthew’s signed his previous contract, it was structured that 53.5m of the contract was a “signing bonus”. Because Matthew’s was a US resident at the time of signing, the signing bonus was taxable only in the US. I’m not sure if guys are still using this strategy. 

I prepare US tax returns for guys playing in the AHL and ECHL, and the name of the game is to try to establish and maintain residency in the US for income tax purposes.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

 

I'd agree that Pettersson is not even close to being a comparable to MacKinnon. And yet their salaries are only 1m apart. Curious isn't it?

 

So again answer my question kucherov is a comparable to mackinnon in every way. Why is mackinnon making 3 mil more?

[27 Percent]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

So again answer my question kucherov is a comparable to mackinnon in every way. Why is mackinnon making 3 mil more?

5% difference in income tax my friend 

[Provost]

59 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Not what it sounds like.  An RCA is almost like a self funded pension plan.  The reason the tax burden is low is because it is assumed the custodian distributes the contributions after retirement when the individual has zero taxable income.  So if a player wants to take advantage of this, it just means spreading out their income over their lifetime to minimize taxes while hopefully the interest earned exceeds the inflationary factor inherent with such plan, otherwise they lose out in real terms.  

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/taxes/income-tax/trust-income-tax/retirement-compensation-arrangements-guide.html

Well maybe you should trust people who are professionals like an agent to know more than you?  They would be more familiar with strategies that all their clients use.

 

it is common for NHLers to do this enough so that in different explanation online of the strategy they use NHLers as an example of who it is suitable for.  Major wealth advisors just have more knowledge than a CPA who doesn’t deal with these things.  The tax rate when they withdraw it is dependent on where they live when they withdraw it, not where they earned it.  It also can also be passed from generation to generation.  You are effectively creating a corporation where you can withdraw the proceeds when it is most advantageous for you.

 

Also, the single most important aspect is that by deferring most of your tax burden you can make money from investments in the whole amount Vs. The half remaining.  Over the decades that can be worth more than the contract itself.

 

https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/17271/17295/Reitrement+Compensation+Arrangements+(RCAs) for+NHL.pdf

 

https://gblinc.ca/the-rca-helping-professional-hockey-players-pay-substantially-less-income-tax/#:~:text=How does the RCA work,is established for the RCA.

 

 

Edited March 4 by Provost

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

Fellow CPA (Illinois) here. I’m not a fan of Walsh’s RCA strategy. In 2019 when Matthew’s signed his previous contract, it was structured that 53.5m of the contract was a “signing bonus”. Because Matthew’s was a US resident at the time of signing, the signing bonus was taxable only in the US. I’m not sure if guys are still using this strategy. 

I prepare US tax returns for guys playing in the AHL and ECHL, and the name of the game is to try to establish and maintain residency in the US for income tax purposes.

Big difference in salaries between NHL superstars, like Petey, and AHL guys. The facts are in. Taxes aren’t an issue. It’s the desire to live in anonymity that draws some players south. And what’s the cost of good body armour down there. And a bullet proof car! And a big fence and gate to keep the MAGA crowds away!!!

Canada wins every time and in every way!!! 

[wai_lai416]

9 minutes ago, 27 Percent said:

5% difference in income tax my friend 

so 5% tax = 3mil? what city is this? it's 500k difference in real money 

[HKSR]

21 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

Fellow CPA (Illinois) here. I’m not a fan of Walsh’s RCA strategy. In 2019 when Matthew’s signed his previous contract, it was structured that 53.5m of the contract was a “signing bonus”. Because Matthew’s was a US resident at the time of signing, the signing bonus was taxable only in the US. I’m not sure if guys are still using this strategy. 

I prepare US tax returns for guys playing in the AHL and ECHL, and the name of the game is to try to establish and maintain residency in the US for income tax purposes.

Nice to hear an educated response from a fellow CPA.  Cheers.

[HKSR]

14 minutes ago, Provost said:

Well maybe you should trust people who are professionals like an agent to know more than you?  They would be more familiar with strategies that all their clients use.

 

it is common for NHLers to do this enough so that in different explanation online of the strategy they use NHLers as an example of who it is suitable for., the tax rate when they withdraw it is dependent on where they live when they withdraw it, not where they earned it.  It also can be passed from generation to generation.  You are effectively like creating a corporation where you can withdraw the proceeds when it is most advantageous for you.

 

Also, the single most important aspect is that by deferring most of your tax burden you can make money from investments in the whole amount Vs. The half remaining.  Over the decades that can be worth more than the contract itself.

 

https://gblinc.ca/the-rca-helping-professional-hockey-players-pay-substantially-less-income-tax/#:~:text=How does the RCA work,is established for the RCA.

 

 

I know what an RCA is and what it does.  It's not as black and white as Walsh makes it sound.  This all depends on the lifestyle of said player.  If he wants to live the millionaire lifestyle, this tax reduction method wouldn't work at all.