Jeremy Hronek Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said: Yes it is. When you're on pace for 90-100 points, large chunks is a stretch. Pettersson's point totals this year has come in bunches, relative to the superstars that the above poster cited. Pettersson's consistency, or lack thereof, is definitely a significant concern. The young man has a lot of talent but he's going to have to step if he wants to be full value for his contract. As of this writing, he's not quite there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 4 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said: A logical opinion based on very good reasoning. Yeah, I think both you and the original person I replied to are 100% wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryberg Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Are we really arguing that a 100 point player is a star but not if they score their points in bunches? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Face Doom Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Coryberg said: Are we really arguing that a 100 point player is a star but not if they score their points in bunches? It's hilarious. Does he go on a cold streak once in a while? Sure. Large stretches? Absolutely not. 90-100 point players don't go on large stretch droughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 (edited) On 3/4/2024 at 6:07 PM, 43isprime said: He's not been good since before the All Star Break. He had 19 points in his first 10 games. In the 53 games since, he has 56 points, for an 82-game pace of less than 87 points. And that's including the 4 game stretch in which he scored 12 points playing on Miller's wing. Pencilling him in as a back to back 100pt center ignores that he's been on an 87 point pace for the latter 84% of this season. In the 21 games since his 12 points in 4 games on Miller's wing, he has 19 points. 9 of those points came in 3 games versus Detroit (twice) and Columbus (once). So he has 10 points in the other 18 games. I don't see how focusing on the latter 84% of this season, or 86% of the last 21 games is cherry-picking. For those saying it's "cherry-picking" to look at 56- and 21-game stretches, and who only care about the season aggregate, consider the fact that an entire Cup run might be around 24 games. On top of that, a poor 4-7 game series could mean the team is done. Aggregates mean little in the playoffs when every game is high leverage. I can't believe I have to say this, but consistency matters. It must be part of a player's valuation. Edited March 6 by 43isprime 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Hronek Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 5 hours ago, Coryberg said: Are we really arguing that a 100 point player is a star but not if they score their points in bunches? Not exactly. What I, and 43isPrime I believe, are saying, is that Petey is really going to have to work on his consistency in order to truly be elite. As proven, elite players can go through peaks and valleys during a season, but Petey has been quite extreme this season relative to those players that 43isPrime mentioned. You take away those first 10 games and JT Miller, and Petey has looked closer to PPG than a 100 point guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Hronek Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 6 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: Yeah, I think both you and the original person I replied to are 100% wrong. Fair enough but may I please ask you to elaborate? I like Petey a lot and am open to hearing more about the opposing view…..especially if it helps change my opinion because I really want to believe in his current contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said: Fair enough but may I please ask you to elaborate? I like Petey a lot and am open to hearing more about the opposing view…..especially if it helps change my opinion because I really want to believe in his current contract. Last year Pettersson and Mac were within 10 points of each other. This year Mac has statically pulled ahead, but he also is doing so with Rantanen as his most consistent linemate this year, while Petey has had Mik. Petey is a 25 year old center who is showing he will be a consistent 100 point player. This is a very good deal for the Canucks, even if they cap was not going up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryberg Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said: You take away those first 10 games and JT Miller, and Petey has looked closer to PPG than a 100 point guy. You take away 10 games that he didn't get on the scoresheet and he is closer to 115 point guy. They have a name for such practices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 2 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: Last year Pettersson and Mac were within 10 points of each other. This year Mac has statically pulled ahead, but he also is doing so with Rantanen as his most consistent linemate this year, while Petey has had Mik. Petey is a 25 year old center who is showing he will be a consistent 100 point player. This is a very good deal for the Canucks, even if they cap was not going up. MacKinnon had 111 pts in 71 games, which is a 128 pt pace. Pettersson had 102 pts in 80 games, which is a 105 pt pace. That doesn't put them within 10 pts of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 6 minutes ago, 43isprime said: MacKinnon had 111 pts in 71 games, which is a 128 pt pace. Pettersson had 102 pts in 80 games, which is a 105 pt pace. That doesn't put them within 10 pts of each other. This is factually false. They were in fact within 10 points of each other. I didn't say anything about ppg, that was not my statement. Edited March 7 by MeanSeanBean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 5 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: This is factually false. They were in fact within 10 points of each other. I didn't say anything about ppg, that was not my statement. Comparing last season's point totals of two players whose games played differed by 9 is meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 10 hours ago, Coryberg said: You take away 10 games that he didn't get on the scoresheet and he is closer to 115 point guy. They have a name for such practices... 115 pts would still put him well behind MacKinnon's 139 pt pace. FYI - Pettersson has 23 games in which he registered 0 pts. Mackinnon has 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscience Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 At least its 8 years, could eventually become a good deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 7 hours ago, 43isprime said: Comparing last season's point totals of two players whose games played differed by 9 is meaningless. It's not meaningless. It's called comparables. It also doesn't change the fact that your original reply to me was either stupid or a lie, which you dodged entirely. It would be absurd to refuse to compare any players who didn't play the same amount of games in contact sport. Edited March 7 by MeanSeanBean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Face Doom Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Conscience said: At least its 8 years, could eventually become a good deal It's already a good deal for a 90-100 point player. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 38 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said: It's already a good deal for a 90-100 point player. not sure why you're getting the little confusey face on that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 5 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: It's not meaningless. It's called comparables. It also doesn't change the fact that your original reply to me was either stupid or a lie, which you dodged entirely. It would be absurd to refuse to compare any players who didn't play the same amount of games in contact sport. Such comparisons are made all the time...using the 82-game point pace rather than point total. As I said, the latter is meaningless when the games played differs by as much as Pettersson's and MacKinnon's did last year. You understand why you have to normalize by games played right? Consider this: In 2015-16, Horvat and McDavid were within 10 points of each other. The following year McDavid statically (??) pulled ahead, but he also was doing so with...I'm too lazy to check lines from 2016-17, but I suspect McDavid's "pulling ahead" the following year had more to do with being able to play more than 45 games rather than with linemates. Obviously a more extreme example, but I hope it illustrates the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekker Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 7 hours ago, Conscience said: At least its 8 years, could eventually become a good deal Could? Eventually? How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Face Doom Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 minute ago, Rekker said: Could? Eventually? How so? When he puts up Mckinnon or Mcdavid numbers which in reality would equate to him making 14 million a season. Hilarious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 10 minutes ago, 43isprime said: Such comparisons are made all the time...using the 82-game point pace rather than point total. As I said, the latter is meaningless when the games played differs by as much as Pettersson's and MacKinnon's did last year. You understand why you have to normalize by games played right? Consider this: In 2015-16, Horvat and McDavid were within 10 points of each other. The following year McDavid statically (??) pulled ahead, but he also was doing so with...I'm too lazy to check lines from 2016-17, but I suspect McDavid's "pulling ahead" the following year had more to do with being able to play more than 45 games rather than with linemates. Obviously a more extreme example, but I hope it illustrates the point. It doesn't illustrate nearly as much as I reckon you think it does. Nothing you have said has swayed my opinion on the subject, and I still say Pettersson a contract is good value irregardless of Mac's contract. Quite frankly, the fact you opened this dialogue with a full on falsity set the tone for me, so I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integra250 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 I think sometimes people forget that Pettersson's in his 6th NHL season; MacKinnon is in his 11th. Pettersson is barely into the prime of his career and he already has a 100 point season under his belt, and likely a second one in a month's time. Mackinnon has been playing with a great cast of players for many years and only broke 100 points in his 10th NHL season. Yes he would probably have a few more to the list but he was hampered with injuries. Even so, MacKinnon had 99 points in 82 games in his 6th NHL season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 The market was set with Nylander's contract. A winger who is older than Pettersson, who has a career high of 87 points in a season (though on pace to exceed that this year) got 11.5 X 8. Pettersson is two and a half years younger, a better defensive player, plays center and wing, and his best season is 15 points better than Nylander's. Pettersson's AAV only being 100 grand higher than Nylander's is a great deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43isprime Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 14 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: It doesn't illustrate nearly as much as I reckon you think it does. Nothing you have said has swayed my opinion on the subject, and I still say Pettersson a contract is good value irregardless of Mac's contract. Quite frankly, the fact you opened this dialogue with a full on falsity set the tone for me, so I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. I said what I said based on the logical assumption that no sensible person compares total point production between two players having played an unequal number of games by season's end. You doubling and tripling down on doing just that tells me there is no point in continuing this bizarre, and frankly, ludicrous conversation. All the best to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 23 hours ago, 43isprime said: 115 pts would still put him well behind MacKinnon's 139 pt pace. FYI - Pettersson has 23 games in which he registered 0 pts. Mackinnon has 10. Has MacKinnon the best players beside him or are they separated on two different lines? Or three as it might be the case with us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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