Vaccine thread

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Just curious: Are you aware that he's threatening to hold Hunter Biden in contempt, because Biden refuses a subpoena for a closed door deposition with the House Committee? (Biden has agreed to appear publicly, but that doesn't suit JJ)

 

Are you also aware that Jordan himself defied a subpoena to appear before the Jan 6th committee?

 

You couldn't be more off the mark if that had been what you were trying to do....

He also doesn't like JJ being called a domestic terrorist.  Not sure why defending Nazi vermin is so important to him.  JJ has lost his right to be treated like people.

[Master Mind]

8 hours ago, AatuD2 said:

 

Maybe people need to hear that it's okay to both believe in medicine and vaccines in general, but still believe that this virus was man-made. 

 

Our health authorities in fact have rules and reservations about this type of research PRECISELY because something like this could happen (and by all accounts it did). 

 

Yeah I'll often see the assumption that if you think it came from a lab, that not only are you against this vaccine, but all vaccines.

 

Not a lot of room allowed for nuance sadly.

[stawns]

19 hours ago, Master Mind said:

 

Likely depends where you ask.

 

I've found that in-person, more people say they think there's a good chance it came form a lab.

 

But online, especially in a thread like this, the mention of a lab leak is often immediately dismissed.

 

I imagine this is due to the initial censorship on most social medias where the question wasn't allowed to be asked.

 

Dismissed because there's no evidence of the "man made lab leak" theory.  But, there's plenty of evidence that it is zoological in origin.

[RupertKBD]

10 hours ago, Master Mind said:

Yeah I'll often see the assumption that if you think it came from a lab, that not only are you against this vaccine, but all vaccines.

 

Not a lot of room allowed for nuance sadly.

 

It's not so much the idea that it was a lab leak....it's the idea that it was done on purpose, or that somehow Anthony Fauci is responsible for it.

 

It's entirely possible that the virus escaped from a lab. I don't believe it did, (like @stawns , I think it originated in the Wet Market) but I don't know with 100% conviction. That being said, as @Satchmo pointed out, Youtube videos featuring Jim Jordan is a poor way to make the case for the lab leak, or anything else for that matter....

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

It's not so much the idea that it was a lab leak....it's the idea that it was done on purpose, or that somehow Anthony Fauci is responsible for it.

 

It's entirely possible that the virus escaped from a lab. I don't believe it did, (like @stawns , I think it originated in the Wet Market) but I don't know with 100% conviction. That being said, as @Satchmo pointed out, Youtube videos featuring Jim Jordan is a poor way to make the case for the lab leak, or anything else for that matter....

 

It will always remain theoretical. China would never release the information or admit to it. There's no point in digging in on the idea. We also have a vaccine for it no matter what the source was.

[RupertKBD]

Just now, Bob Long said:

It will always remain theoretical. China would never release the information or admit to it. There's no point in digging in on the idea. We also have a vaccine for it no matter what the source was.

 

As far as I can tell, the whole reason for people digging into this is to discredit people like Fauci and Bonnie Henry, because.....reasons...."Freedom" or something? I dunno, it's all too stupid for me to wrap my head around...

 

That being said, I'll always be here to defend the medical professionals from these people. When you consider the reaction to Covid from an idiot like Trump, Fauci probably saved thousands of lives....yet performance artist clowns like Gym Jordan and Rand Paul attempt to smear him at every opportunity.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

As far as I can tell, the whole reason for people digging into this is to discredit people like Fauci and Bonnie Henry, because.....reasons...."Freedom" or something? I dunno, it's all too stupid for me to wrap my head around...

 

That being said, I'll always be here to defend the medical professionals from these people. When you consider the reaction to Covid from an idiot like Trump, Fauci probably saved thousands of lives....yet performance artist clowns like Gym Jordan and Rand Paul attempt to smear him at every opportunity.

 

Yep the freedom morons seem to need conspiracy theories as a reason get out of bed I guess. Dunno, the level of dumb has far surpassed anything I ever thought I'd see.

[stawns]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

It will always remain theoretical. China would never release the information or admit to it. There's no point in digging in on the idea. We also have a vaccine for it no matter what the source was.

 

They can never definitively prove it, I agree, but they've got a pretty good idea by studying the virus itself and determining it's origin by biologocal markers that are naturally evolved, as opposed to engineered.........at least that's my understanding of what I've read

Edited December 20, 2023 by stawns

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

They can never definitively prove it, I agree, but they've got a pretty good idea by studying the virus itself and determining it's origin by biologocal markers that are naturally evolved, as opposed to engineered.........at least that's my understanding of what I've read

 

lets say thats true. What can anyone do about it?

 

[Johngould21]

Meanwhile, I know of 3 more people in our circle that have, or had Covid in the past week.

[Satchmo]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

They can never definitively prove it, I agree, but they've got a pretty good idea by studying the virus itself and determining it's origin by biologocal markers that are naturally evolved, as opposed to engineered.........at least that's my understanding of what I've read

I can only agree.  Somebody said yesterday there is evidence pointing to it being man made.  I let that go because I was 'discussing' other stuff they were saying.  

 

But it is true that no one with any credibility is saying that the virus had any biotech characteristics.

 

I remain open to any compelling proof that it was man made but all evidence uncovered so far points to nature.    

[stawns]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

lets say thats true. What can anyone do about it?

 

 

absolutely nothing, it's a moo point, I agree

[Master Mind]

43 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

It's not so much the idea that it was a lab leak....it's the idea that it was done on purpose, or that somehow Anthony Fauci is responsible for it.

 

It's entirely possible that the virus escaped from a lab. I don't believe it did, (like @stawns , I think it originated in the Wet Market) but I don't know with 100% conviction. That being said, as @Satchmo pointed out, Youtube videos featuring Jim Jordan is a poor way to make the case for the lab leak, or anything else for that matter....

 

34 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

As far as I can tell, the whole reason for people digging into this is to discredit people like Fauci and Bonnie Henry, because.....reasons...."Freedom" or something?

 

Escaping from a lab could be that it was intentional, or that it was just negligence. People have varying opinions.

 

If we agree that it is possible, then why was it not allowed to be discussed early on?

 

Maybe the thought was that would create distrust, but I think it creates more distrust to prevent people from talking about a subject. Makes it seem like there is something to hide, even if there isn't.

 

I think people just want the truth, or to know when someone's lying to them. Especially if you lost a loved one to covid, I think it's understandable to ask questions, even if you'll never be given the whole answer.

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

 

 

Escaping from a lab could be that it was intentional, or that it was just negligence. People have varying opinions.

 

If we agree that it is possible, then why was it not allowed to be discussed early on?

 

Maybe the thought was that would create distrust, but I think it creates more distrust to prevent people from talking about a subject. Makes it seem like there is something to hide, even if there isn't.

 

I think people just want the truth, or to know when someone's lying to them. Especially if you lost a loved one to covid, I think it's understandable to ask questions, even if you'll never be given the whole answer.

 

I have lost someone to covid, and don't feel this way at all. In fact I find it a little annoying, as it tends to just feed those that don't want to follow the advice of our health officials. It takes conspiracy ideas and puts them on the same level as people actually trying to keep us safe. 

 

[Master Mind]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I have lost someone to covid, and don't feel this way at all. In fact I find it a little annoying, as it tends to just feed those that don't want to follow the advice of our health officials. It takes conspiracy ideas and puts them on the same level as people actually trying to keep us safe. 

 

 

Sorry for your loss, I too have lost someone to covid. I'm not suggesting that everyone who has lost someone feels this way, but that I can understand someone feeling that way. I think my point remains the same regardless of loss.

 

As @AatuD2 mentioned, questioning the origin does not mean you can't follow the advice of health officials. There's nothing wrong with thinking it came from a lab, and still following the advice.

 

What are your thoughts on the origin being taboo in the beginning? As I stated I think this caused more distrust and therefore resulted in more people doubting the vaccine.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Master Mind said:

 

Sorry for your loss, I too have lost someone to covid. I'm not suggesting that everyone who has lost someone feels this way, but that I can understand someone feeling that way. I think my point remains the same regardless of loss.

 

As @AatuD2 mentioned, questioning the origin does not mean you can't follow the advice of health officials. There's nothing wrong with thinking it came from a lab, and still following the advice.

 

What are your thoughts on the origin being taboo in the beginning? As I stated I think this caused more distrust and therefore resulted in more people doubting the vaccine.

 

 

I don't know that it was taboo, it just wasn't going to be the official stance of the US government. I think it had to do with the incredibly difficult job of trying to get people to be safe in public when we had very little information about the virus. Don't forget, we didn't really know how bad things were going to be, and getting sidelined by origin theories was not helpful. Playing some kind of international blame game would have been a massive unneeded distraction. 

 

When you really see how hard healthcare professionals work, the kind of hell they went through, and then see these so-called 'theories' being used to discredit them, it just makes me sick. 

 

Of course not everyone questioning the origin is this kind of person, but I do see it used a lot out of that camp. 

 

[Master Mind]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

I don't know that it was taboo, it just wasn't going to be the official stance of the US government. I think it had to do with the incredibly difficult job of trying to get people to be safe in public when we had very little information about the virus. Don't forget, we didn't really know how bad things were going to be, and getting sidelined by origin theories was not helpful. Playing some kind of international blame game would have been a massive unneeded distraction. 

 

When you really see how hard healthcare professionals work, the kind of hell they went through, and then see these so-called 'theories' being used to discredit them, it just makes me sick. 

 

Of course not everyone questioning the origin is this kind of person, but I do see it used a lot out of that camp. 

 

 

Many social media sites banned any talk of it potentially coming from a lab, even if was just from negligence.

 

Fair enough if you don't want unneeded distractions, but the restriction of this topic was a distraction itself.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Master Mind

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

 

Many social media sites banned any talk of it potentially coming from a lab, even if was just from negligence.

 

Fair enough if you don't want unneeded distractions, but the restriction of this topic was a distraction itself.

 

 

There was plenty of conspiracy B's about lab leak on social media.......much of it tagged because there's no credible evidence of it

[Master Mind]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

There was plenty of conspiracy B's about lab leak on social media.......much of it tagged because there's no credible evidence of it

 

No site can ban every mention of it, but there were plenty of posts/accounts banned for mentioning it.

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

 

Fair enough if you don't want unneeded distractions, but the restriction of this topic was a distraction itself.

 

 

Yea for sure it didn't help. 

[AatuD2]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

 

They can never definitively prove it, I agree, but they've got a pretty good idea by studying the virus itself and determining it's origin by biologocal markers that are naturally evolved, as opposed to engineered.........at least that's my understanding of what I've read

 

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Yep the freedom morons seem to need conspiracy theories as a reason get out of bed I guess. Dunno, the level of dumb has far surpassed anything I ever thought I'd see.

 

 

New information came out on Monday through a freedom of information request. I'm going to quote New York Times here... 

 

"Newly released documents and internal messages regarding a 2018 coronavirus research proposal reveal scientists’ concerns that the Chinese lab — which is now at the center of the COVID-19 lab leak theory — would be viewed by US officials as a safety risk.

Drafts and notes regarding a grant proposal called Project DEFUSE, coauthored by American researchers and scientists from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, were published by US Right to Know Monday through a Freedom of Information Act request. 

The proposal, which was ultimately rejected and denied funding by the US’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), was submitted by the now-controversial EcoHealth Alliance and sought to test engineering bat coronaviruses in a way that would make them more easily transmissible to humans.

 

The researchers proposed introducing “appropriate human-specific cleavage sites” to the spike proteins of SARS-related viruses in the lab.

 

...

 

Now, messages and notes between the proposal’s authors as well as early drafts released this week add another layer to the theory.

 

According to the new documents, the researchers had planned to conduct a portion of the research at the Wuhan lab where safety precautions are not up to US standards, according to US Right to Know, a nonprofit public health research group.

 

“Ralph, Zhengli. If we win this contract, I do not propose that all of this work will necessarily be conducted by Ralph, but I do want to stress the US side of this proposal so that DARPA are comfortable with our team,” Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance wrote to North Carolina-based researcher Ralph Baric and the Wuhan scientist at the center of the lab leak theory, Zhengli Shi.

 

“Once we get the funds, we can then allocate who does what exact work, and I believe that a lot of these assays can be done in Wuhan as well…”

 

He also said he wanted to “downplay” the Chinese involvement in the research in hopes of being granted funding by DARPA.

 

“I’m planning to use my resume and Ralph’s,” Daszak wrote. “Linfa/Zhengli, I realize your resumes are also very impressive, but I’m trying to downplay the non-US focus of this proposal so that DARPA doesn’t see this as a negative.” 

 

In an earlier version of the draft proposal, the researchers said the project would be “highly cost-effective” because it would only require a lab with a biosafety level of two (BSL-2), on a scale of one to four with four (BSL-4) being the strictest level of safety standards.

 

...

 

“This latest leak makes the case for a lab leak almost certain,” biologist Matt Ridley tweeted. “A reckless experiment, known at the time to be reckless, probably caused the death of millions of people. Scientists and the media conspired to conceal the evidence.”

[AatuD2]

1 hour ago, Master Mind said:

 

Sorry for your loss, I too have lost someone to covid. I'm not suggesting that everyone who has lost someone feels this way, but that I can understand someone feeling that way. I think my point remains the same regardless of loss.

 

As @AatuD2 mentioned, questioning the origin does not mean you can't follow the advice of health officials. There's nothing wrong with thinking it came from a lab, and still following the advice.

 

What are your thoughts on the origin being taboo in the beginning? As I stated I think this caused more distrust and therefore resulted in more people doubting the vaccine.

 

 

We should most definitely be questioning the origin.  

 

One would have to bury their head in the sand now to believe that it's not man made, and not only that, but it was research that wouldn't have been approved on US soil, so the scientists went elsewhere. 

 

This article published on Monday puts the nail in the coffin. 

 

https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/2018-covid-docs-reveal-scientists-safety-concerns-over-chinese-lab/

[4petesake]

1 hour ago, Master Mind said:

 

Many social media sites banned any talk of it potentially coming from a lab, even if was just from negligence.

 

Fair enough if you don't want unneeded distractions, but the restriction of this topic was a distraction itself.

 

 

There isn’t anything wrong with a discussion about the origins of Covid in and of itself as knowing makes us all safer in the future. I think that many of the posters that brought it up wanted to attach it to discrediting health authorities & professionals who were doing that best they could with what knowledge we had at the time to protect the public and to keep hospitals from bursting at the seams. Remember there was a constant theme to assign nefarious intentions to every public health mandate and to Dr B herself, as in this quote from a post on the old board - 

 

“I have no problem with people being vaccinated or unvaccinated considering the vaccines seem to useless after a period of time until you need your booster shot. This rhetoric gets us nowhere except dividing us even more and not focused on the real culprits behind this which are politicians, government bureaucrats, and many important people who have accumulated a massive amount of wealth.”

 

In hindsight maybe we should have had a separate thread for discussion about origins, theories, mandates, etc. It probably would have been easier for mods to give posters more latitude in a thread not dedicated to public health and safety.

[4petesake]

Just now, AatuD2 said:

 

 

We should most definitely be questioning the origin.  

 

One would have to bury their head in the sand now to believe that it's not man made, and not only that, but it was research that wouldn't have been approved on US soil, so the scientists went elsewhere. 

 

This article published on Monday puts the nail in the coffin. 

 

https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/2018-covid-docs-reveal-scientists-safety-concerns-over-chinese-lab/

 

Except as I posted yesterday  with a link in reply to one of your posts that research was and is being done on US soil.

[AatuD2]

8 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

Except as I posted yesterday  with a link in reply to one of your posts that research was and is being done on US soil.

 

I must've missed that, but this latest NY Times article that I posted pretty much specifies that this particular work wasn't and wouldn't have been approved for the US and was done in Wuhan. 

 

https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/2018-covid-docs-reveal-scientists-safety-concerns-over-chinese-lab/