Vaccine thread

[Xanlet]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I'm making fun of your attempt to fool people. I actually really like horses.

In what way have I attempted to fool people? By accurately relaying the history and usage of Ivermectin in human beings?

[Spring Salmon]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

awesome, you are one data point. 

So why would I believe you or the media when I literally lived it

[Bob Long]

Just now, Xanlet said:

In what way have I attempted to fool people? By accurately relaying the history and usage of Ivermectin in human beings?

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Spring Salmon said:

So why would I believe you or the media when I literally lived it

 

Because you are one singular person. You don't represent everyone. Does that really need to be pointed out to you? You also had no idea how your body would react before you got sick. That part is called hindsight.

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

In what way have I attempted to fool people? By accurately relaying the history and usage of Ivermectin in human beings?

Have you really done it accurately?  It's a wonder drug to combat parasites, but...

 

Ivermectin has been shown to inhibit the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in cell cultures.3 However, pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies suggest that achieving the plasma concentrations necessary for the antiviral efficacy detected in vitro would require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans.4,5

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/miscellaneous-drugs/ivermectin/

 

The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. 

The FDA has determined that currently available clinical trial data do not demonstrate that ivermectin is effective against COVID 19 in humans. 

Animal ivermectin products are different formulations than those approved for humans. Due to the lack of testing of these formulations in humans, the safety of these products in humans is not known. Never use medications intended for animals on yourself or other people.

Taking large doses of ivermectin can be dangerous.

 

I bet you will jump on this next paragraph:

 

From the FDA’s perspective, with few exceptions, health care professionals may choose to prescribe or use an approved human drug for an unapproved use when they judge that the unapproved use is medically appropriate for an individual patient. If your health care provider writes you an ivermectin prescription, fill it through a legitimate source such as a pharmacy. 

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/ivermectin-and-covid-19

 

[Xanlet]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Have you really done it accurately?  It's a wonder drug to combat parasites, but...

 

Ivermectin has been shown to inhibit the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in cell cultures.3 However, pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies suggest that achieving the plasma concentrations necessary for the antiviral efficacy detected in vitro would require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans.4,5

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/miscellaneous-drugs/ivermectin/

 

The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. 

The FDA has determined that currently available clinical trial data do not demonstrate that ivermectin is effective against COVID 19 in humans. 

Animal ivermectin products are different formulations than those approved for humans. Due to the lack of testing of these formulations in humans, the safety of these products in humans is not known. Never use medications intended for animals on yourself or other people.

Taking large doses of ivermectin can be dangerous.

 

I bet you will jump on this next paragraph:

 

From the FDA’s perspective, with few exceptions, health care professionals may choose to prescribe or use an approved human drug for an unapproved use when they judge that the unapproved use is medically appropriate for an individual patient. If your health care provider writes you an ivermectin prescription, fill it through a legitimate source such as a pharmacy. 

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/ivermectin-and-covid-19

 

My central point is that referring to it as "horse paste" is dishonest, and that it is common practice, especially, as you just posted, where there is a plausible mechanism for it to have an effect on Covid, to attempt to apply safe drugs off-label to novel conditions.

 

Now, it may be that the dosage required is too high to be practicable, but why would that warrant any kind of mockery or derision on those who were hopeful it could be a cheap, widely available, and safe treatment for covid?

 

In my view, it's clear. There was an effort made to turn Ivermectin into a kind of political polarizing topic, and some of our friends in this thread internalized that a little too much.

Edited May 31 by Xanlet

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Have you really done it accurately?  It's a wonder drug to combat parasites, but...

 

Ivermectin has been shown to inhibit the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in cell cultures.3 However, pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies suggest that achieving the plasma concentrations necessary for the antiviral efficacy detected in vitro would require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans.4,5

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/miscellaneous-drugs/ivermectin/

 

The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. 

The FDA has determined that currently available clinical trial data do not demonstrate that ivermectin is effective against COVID 19 in humans. 

Animal ivermectin products are different formulations than those approved for humans. Due to the lack of testing of these formulations in humans, the safety of these products in humans is not known. Never use medications intended for animals on yourself or other people.

Taking large doses of ivermectin can be dangerous.

 

I bet you will jump on this next paragraph:

 

From the FDA’s perspective, with few exceptions, health care professionals may choose to prescribe or use an approved human drug for an unapproved use when they judge that the unapproved use is medically appropriate for an individual patient. If your health care provider writes you an ivermectin prescription, fill it through a legitimate source such as a pharmacy. 

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/ivermectin-and-covid-19

 

And to get 100 times the allowable human dose (which even the bad doctors who prescribe ivermectin for Covid) morans use horsey paste. 

[Jaimito]

44 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

Again, I reference Statistics Canada which reported the average age of death from Covid for the year or 2020 was 83.8 years old. Why rush a product, and force the public to take it, when the disease that was "running rampant" was only really a risk to older people? Again, the shots do not prevent transmission so the idea of forcing someone to take an unknown risk to benefit another person is void from the start, and the true risk factor was unknown since the clinical trials were too small to catch events that may occur in the 10,000s of doses.

 

Why the "one size fits all" approach? There were clearly different calculations to be made for different age groups.

 

Also, there is zero justification to use authority to force someone to take a risk of unknown proportion on the basis of not spreading a disease when the disease can be spread after the shot anyway! 

 

While Covid disproportionately affects the elderly and medically vulnerable, it was the leading cause of death in the US among 45-54 yr olds in 2021, and 4th leading cause of death among 25-34 yr olds.  It was unfortunate since a vaccine was available in 2021.  I don't have time to check your claim in Canada, but if accurate, then it means Canada did it right. They protected most people and it was the very most vulnerable that wasn't able to escape the plague, like every type of infectious epidemics and pandemics. 

 

No one was forced to take the shot. There was no one being tied down or commandos going into homes and villages.  They did that with smallpox vaccine and it did eradicate it, but that's a different virus and a different time. 

 

As for side effects, the trials were among the biggest trials for any vaccine or drug. It can't pick up rare side effects, so there is a phase 4 and monitoring after it was approved under emergency authorization.  Vaccines were needed becuase the affect on society was self evident and there was still no good antivirals at the time.  The benefits far outweighed the risks.  As more rare side effects were reported, it was made public. The mRNA vaccines turn out to be a lot safer than the adenovirus vector vaccines so eventually adenovirus vector vaccines were phased out. But at the early phase of the pandemic with shortage of vaccines, it was deemed by many to be worth the risk despite those rare side effects. Many of my family in Canada took it. No one had any serious side effects. 

 

Getting the population enough immunity to a novel infectious agent with significant case fatality rate was the right thing to do early to prevent hospitals from collapsing and allow society to get back to normal as much as possible.  Vaccines typically don't prevent infection, but reduces the severity of the disease.  

 

I'm glad my parents lived in Vancouver at the time. The government did the right thing early and hospitals never got overwhelmed like it did at NYC. My former colleagues at VGH never faced a collapsing hospital system. 

 

I'm speaking from experience, being a physician that lived through this and treated patients at the beginning of the first wave in NYC. 

From Mar to the summer in 2020, we had over 2000 dead just in our hospital alone, and over 20 staff died.  We converted all the lecture halls to wards, and had refrigerator trucks parked outside the hospital because the morgue was full.  We were short on PPE, and were reusing our N95. One resident even got a NY Yankees poncho on the way in the hospital as a PPE.  

 

Don't like these discussions on a hockey forum. It's a waste of time. If you don't think the virus was a problem for you or vaccines are totally useless, then you will believe that regardless. Nothing someone says on forum will convince you.

 

I'm just glad the government in Canada acted the way they did. They certainly made mistakes, but almost no country got it right.  

 

The boosters are a different thing. It's not mandatory anywhere.  Recommendations are given. If you live in Canada, check the NACI guidelines.  

 

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

Anyone familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?

[Duodenum]

2 hours ago, Xanlet said:

Again, I reference Statistics Canada which reported the average age of death from Covid for the year or 2020 was 83.8 years old. Why rush a product, and force the public to take it, when the disease that was "running rampant" was only really a risk to older people? Again, the shots do not prevent transmission so the idea of forcing someone to take an unknown risk to benefit another person is void from the start, and the true risk factor was unknown since the clinical trials were too small to catch events that may occur in the 10,000s of doses.

 

Why the "one size fits all" approach? There were clearly different calculations to be made for different age groups.

 

Also, there is zero justification to use authority to force someone to take a risk of unknown proportion on the basis of not spreading a disease when the disease can be spread after the shot anyway!

As another poster already indicated, covid was a leading cause of death in young adults as well. As that poster also indicated, it was an extremely large trial and one of the largest of it's kind.

 

God forbid the vaccine mutated and became more virulent + the governments of the world didn't release the super effective vaccines, the catastrophe would have been far worse.

 

Nobody was forced. Yes, health care workers could be fired (risk to others), or entry into certain establishments would be denied for a time (risk to others), but there continues to be a portion of the populace that is unvaccinated and they live completely free lives.

 

Hindsight is easy, thinking everything should be perfect after the fact is also easy.

 

The coordination and efforts by our health units to enhance the safety of our populace was nothing short of heroic. 

[PistolPete13]

2 hours ago, Spring Salmon said:

I had covid February of 22.  No shots no ivermectin. I was fine. Tired for an evening. Believing you need countless covid shots or horse paste is what the media has done to you

How do you know that you had Covid? 

Did you take a test that was developed by the same people that are pushing vaccines, or did you find several articles on the internet, to assist in your diagnosis? 

[Duodenum]

It's risk benefit at the end of the day.

A 2 dose primary series over 6 months for males 18-64 will prevent roughly 4500 hospitalizations and 50 deaths per million doses (500,000 ppl). 

It will cause roughly 100 hospitalizations and 0 deaths. 

 

 

Pretty obviously heavily pro-vaccine and that's in a group that you'd expect a much lower benefit from than the 65+ age group. 

 

There is no discussion regarding the covid vaccines, only the knows and knows-not.

[Spring Salmon]

1 minute ago, PistolPete13 said:

How do you know that you had Covid? 

Did you take a test that was developed by the same people that are pushing vaccines, or did you find several articles on the internet, to assist in your diagnosis? 

It was covid because my whole family had it and the test said it was.  That and it felt different than any bug I've ever had.   I don't understand what point you're trying to make?  That I am an anti-covid-tester ?  That's a new one lol.   Go back and think about it again and get back to me 

[Satchmo]

2 hours ago, Spring Salmon said:

I had covid February of 22.  No shots no ivermectin. I was fine. Tired for an evening. Believing you need countless covid shots or horse paste is what the media has done to you

I'm glad to hear you were not too greatly affected.  Do you totally discount the possibility that it could have gone badly for you?  Some young and healthy people died; others had long Covid.   I've said it before but you never really know what Nature is going to do until it does it.

[PistolPete13]

Just now, Spring Salmon said:

It was covid because my whole family had it and the test said it was.  That and it felt different than any bug I've ever had.   I don't understand what point you're trying to make?  That I am an anti-covid-tester ?  That's a new one lol.   Go back and think about it again and get back to me 

If you’re trying to ridicule me, I’ll take it as a compliment, since I don’t respect your opinion.lol. 

My point was obvious. You trust the test, but not the vaccine? Picking and choosing what your willing to believe from the medical professionals. Hmmm. 

[Spring Salmon]

30 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I'm glad to hear you were not too greatly affected.  Do you totally discount the possibility that it could have gone badly for you?  Some young and healthy people died; others had long Covid.   I've said it before but you never really know what Nature is going to do until it does it.

Thanks for the kind words.  Unfortunately some people were not too happy I didn't get sicker and had reprehensible views in my, and many others opinions.  Let's just say one of my aunts eats Christmas dinners alone with her cat now.   Oh well

 

Of course I thought about the possibility of me getting really sick but a few things changed my mind.  Believe it or not I was signed up for the vax in June 21.  Then I decided to wait the summer first.  That summer 3 people close to me were hospitalized after the vax. 2 immediately after and one was in there for weeks.  Almost died she did. 

 

Then along came vaccine passports.  Not ok with that. And then came all the backtracking the "experts" did.  I will never forget Bonnie recommending glory holes. Like WTF am I the only one who found that very odd.  It just seemed they were making shit up along the way and had no idea what they were doing.   It would be one thing if they admitted they were wrong but they just kept doubling down.  And then came knowing people personally unvaccinated who beat covid just fine and many other reasons I won't bore you with.  I just figured I was young enough and healthy enough and I was right.

 

Anyway I know people here won't agree with me and I don't care.  I have no regrets with my choice 

 

[Spring Salmon]

51 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

I don’t respect your opinion.lol. 

Right back at ya

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, Spring Salmon said:

Thanks for the kind words.  Unfortunately some people were not too happy I didn't get sicker and had reprehensible views in my, and many others opinions.  Let's just say one of my aunts eats Christmas dinners alone with her cat now.   Oh well

 

Of course I thought about the possibility of me getting really sick but a few things changed my mind.  Believe it or not I was signed up for the vax in June 21.  Then I decided to wait the summer first.  That summer 3 people close to me were hospitalized after the vax. 2 immediately after and one was in there for weeks.  Almost died she did. 

 

Then along came vaccine passports.  Not ok with that. And then came all the backtracking the "experts" did.  I will never forget Bonnie recommending glory holes. Like WTF am I the only one who found that very odd.  It just seemed they were making shit up along the way and had no idea what they were doing.   It would be one thing if they admitted they were wrong but they just kept doubling down.  And then came knowing people personally unvaccinated who beat covid just fine and many other reasons I won't bore you with.  I just figured I was young enough and healthy enough and I was right.

 

Anyway I know people here won't agree with me and I don't care.  I have no regrets with my choice 

 

I don't agree with all you said but I fully accept the 'I have no regrets with my choice '.

 

Some random points:

- I can't accept that the experience of a dozen or so people is the best way to gauge a pandemic. I'm a data guy and you need more data.

- Bonnie was a Navy doctor for years and a lot of her time was spent treating sailors with venereal diseases.  She knows people are going to do what they do sexually no matter what else is going on.  She made a truly odd statement about glory holes but it was made in the interest of safety.

- vaccine passports made sense to me at the time and seemed like an ok tool to help keep people safe. I know they pissed a lot of people off.

- Don't forget the pandemic was new and unfolding in real time.  It could have gone very badly. Nobody knew. People learned as it went a long. It's easy to look back now with 20:20 hindsight. I noticed some mistakes made by Bonnie & her crew but I still give her a high passing grade. Just not an A plus.  

- Lots of unvaccinated people beat Covid. Lots didn't.

 

I've been vaxxed and I've been boosted. I have no regrets with my choice.

[Sharpshooter]

@Xanlet

 

This Site won’t allow for unsubstantiated medical opinions, particularly when it comes to vaccines or vaccine adjacent therapies. 
 

This is my first and only warning to you to cut it out. Drop that line of thought and discussion.  
 

 

[Xanlet]

4 hours ago, Jaimito said:

 

While Covid disproportionately affects the elderly and medically vulnerable, it was the leading cause of death in the US among 45-54 yr olds in 2021, and 4th leading cause of death among 25-34 yr olds.  It was unfortunate since a vaccine was available in 2021.  I don't have time to check your claim in Canada, but if accurate, then it means Canada did it right. They protected most people and it was the very most vulnerable that wasn't able to escape the plague, like every type of infectious epidemics and pandemics. 

 

No one was forced to take the shot.

 

This is extremely dishonest. Many people were given the choice of losing their job or getting the jab which even you admit had unknown risk factors because the trials couldn't accurately capture the full risks of the vaccines. Also, with vaccine passports, everyone was banned from public spaces or travel across the border unless they had this vaccine. These are all examples of force to make a person comply and if they don't comply, remove their ability to make a livelihood or to move freely. Again, the vaccines do not prevent transmission, so there was never a justification for these restrictions.

 

By "4th leading cause of death" do you mean ~5000 fatalities across the entire USA? And it doesn't make the chart for 2020, so we have to assume it was less than the lowest on the chart for that year, which is ~2000. So we have ~7000 total people aged 25 - 34 across almost two full years at the height of the pandemic? According to data from 2021, there were a total of ~45.5 million people in the age category in the USA.

 

Also, not to be too blunt, but the USA had generally worse outcomes from Covid because obesity was a significant co-morbidity, and the USA has an obesity problem. It is totally unethical to use force or coercion to make people take a product with unknown risk factors, when there is not third party benefit, and they have such a infinitesimally small risk to themselves from the virus.

 

Across almost two years, ~7000 passed away out of 45.5 million, and on that basis, you want to push a mandated vaccine which causes severe adverse reactions at a rate of 1 in 22,000 to that male aged population? Also, vaccinated people can still catch it and pass away, in fact, by 2022, most hospitalized people with Covid were actually vaccinated! Here is a chart as of September 2022 which shows over 50% of people who died of covid were vaccinated:

 

This resource also shows hospitalizations were over 50% vaccinated:https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/archive/2022-10-21/cases-following-vaccination.html

 

Therefore, we can confidently say that a significant number of those who passed away were actually vaccinated, perhaps as many as half in 2021.

 

To sum up, this was an ineffectual vaccine with significant risks which was pushed on people with the use of force by the government.

 

If you really are a doctor, I think you need to revisit your education on ethics.

[Xanlet]

32 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

@Xanlet

 

This Site won’t allow for unsubstantiated medical opinions, particularly when it comes to vaccines or vaccine adjacent therapies. 
 

This is my first and only warning to you to cut it out. Drop that line of thought and discussion.  
 

 

Would you kindly point out which of my opinions I have failed to substantiate with an official source?

[Sharpshooter]

7 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

Would you kindly point out which of my opinions I have failed to substantiate with an official source?

Ivermectin. 
 

If you continue this line of argument, then I will remove you from this Site. 
 

And no, I’m not Big Pharma nor uneducated. 
 

 

[Xanlet]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Ivermectin. 
 

If you continue this line of argument, then I will remove you from this Site. 

What opinion about Ivermectin? I have not once in this whole thread advocated for its use in humans in regard to covid, I have only put forward the fact that it has been used in humans for decades. I even acknowledged that it may be the case that the dose required to have any effect is too high to be practicable, as the source I provided mentioned. If I have made a statement which is false about Ivermectin, please tell me.

Edited June 1 by Xanlet

[Sharpshooter]

2 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

What opinion about Ivermectin? I have not once in this whole thread advocated for its use in humans in regard to covid, I have only put forward the fact that it has been used in humans for decades. I even acknowledged that it may be the case that the dose required to have any effect is too high to be practicable. If I have made a statement which is false about Ivermectin, please tell me.

Fair. 
 

And I’m being more than fair. 
 

Enough. 
 

Do you understand what I’m saying right now?

[Satchmo]

16 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

If you really are a doctor, I think you need to revisit your education on ethics.

Such fucking hubris is rarely seen around here.