Vaccine thread

[RupertKBD]

31 minutes ago, bolt said:

Most of it didn't work but we are in the age of virtue signalling.  The direction arrows in grocery store aisles was definelty the difference maker.

 

Somebody saw the phrase "virtue signalling", thought it made you sound smart if you use it and is now doing so in virtually every post.

 

Not mentioning any names, though....

[Satchmo]

1 hour ago, bolt said:

https://torontosun.com/news/world/dr-anthony-fauci-admits-he-made-up-covids-social-distancing-measures-masking-rules

Point and counter point.   Call me a woke lefty for preferring the NYT's spin on the proceeding's over that of the Toronto Sun.

 

Social distancing rules became another point of contention at the hearing. In closed-door testimony from January, Dr. Fauci told the House panel that the six-foot social distancing rule “sort of just appeared.” He said on Monday that he was referring to the absence of controlled studies on the optimal distance, which he said would not have been possible before the rule was implemented.

“These were important when we were trying to stop the tsunami of death early on,” Dr. Fauci said as Republican lawmakers pressed him on that and other Covid restrictions. “How long you kept them going is debatable.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/science/fauci-hearing-covid-origins.html

 

[the destroyer of worlds]

19 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Point and counter point.   Call me a woke lefty for preferring the NYT's spin on the proceeding's over that of the Toronto Sun.

 

Social distancing rules became another point of contention at the hearing. In closed-door testimony from January, Dr. Fauci told the House panel that the six-foot social distancing rule “sort of just appeared.” He said on Monday that he was referring to the absence of controlled studies on the optimal distance, which he said would not have been possible before the rule was implemented.

“These were important when we were trying to stop the tsunami of death early on,” Dr. Fauci said as Republican lawmakers pressed him on that and other Covid restrictions. “How long you kept them going is debatable.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/science/fauci-hearing-covid-origins.html

 

The choices were do nothing (not possible), do zero Covid (not possible either), or do half-measures.  Doing half measures leaves openings for Covid and for critics.  Did they work?  Somewhat.  Were the measures all useless.  No.  Did the critics make things harder and worse than they had to be?  Yes.  See the Edson Covid party for an example.

[4petesake]

17 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

The choices were do nothing (not possible), do zero Covid (not possible either), or do half-measures.  Doing half measures leaves openings for Covid and for critics.  Did they work?  Somewhat.  Were the measures all useless.  No.  Did the critics make things harder and worse than they had to be?  Yes.  See the Edson Covid party for an example.

 

Science be damned! I sure preferred some hacking, maskless goofball who obviously cares nothing about society to be at least 6 feet away from me. Actually I would prefer 600 feet but I’ll take what we get.

[DSVII]

3 hours ago, UncleBen said:

https://crimeagainsthumanityfilm.com/robert-malone/

 

SHARE AND DOWNLOAD TRAILER HERE

 

CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY

CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY

DONATE

 

ROBERT W. MALONE, MD, MS

PHYSICIAN AND BIOCHEMIST

CV

SCIENCE RESEARCH

Dr. Malone is the inventor of mRNA vaccines (and DNA vaccines). He also discovered lipid mediated and naked RNA transfection technologies.  This is important because it is his role in the invention of these technologies that gave him the initial credibility to speak on the subject of mRNA vaccines.  When main stream media and the government decided to censor him and deny his role in these discoveries, they have a purpose.  That purpose was to stop him from being a legitimate expert. Those newspaper articles are still front and center on google.  Because the government can not handle the truth and must censor and delegitimize dissenting voices.

It all started when he was at the Salk Institute in 1987 and 1988. There, he pioneered in-vitro RNA transfection and also in-vivo RNA transfection (in frog embryos, as well as mice).

 

This resulted in his seminal paper: Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection RW Malone, PL Felgner, IM Verma. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) 86 (16), 6077-6081

 

His filed patent and disclosures from the Salk included in-vivo RNA transfection, mRNA as a drug,  mRNA production, transient gene therapy and also methods for mRNA stabilization. These are available for review and can be found in the link below this statement.

 

 When he left the Salk Institute, he moved his research over to Vical in 1988.  He brought over mRNA, constructs, reagents that were developed at the Salk institute by Dr. Malone. The first in-vivo mammalian mRNA experiments were designed by Dr. Malone in January, 1989: this included dosing amounts for the in-vivo experiments. As he had brought his constructs, plasmids, reagents from the Salk Institute, he was easily able to ramp up his research program at Vical - where he was the only employee actually working on this technology at the time.  The first in-vivo mouse experiments were performed in February, 1989 when mRNA and DNA was sent to Dr. Jon Wolff via Fedex. Dr.Wolff and his technicians at the University of Wisconsin injected mice and rats.

 

The initial patent disclosures for RNA and DNA vaccination were written by Dr. Malone in 1988-1989. Dr. Malone was also an inventor of DNA vaccines in 1988 and 1989.  Dr. Malone wrote the patent disclosures (documents linked below). Dr. Rhodes and Dr. Malone designed the initial mRNA vaccine experiments, which were carried out by Dr. Gary Rhodes - in consultation with Dr. Malone.

 

THE INITIAL mRNA VACCINE EXPERIMENT EVER PERFORMED WAS FIRST CARRIED OUT IN 1989 AND IS WRITTEN UP IN THE ORIGINAL PATENTS.  THERE ARE IMAGES OF THESE EXPERIMENTS FROM THE PATENTS FOUND AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE.

 

This body of work resulted in nine patents and numerous publications, yielding about 9000 citations for this work.

 

The paper that showed that first in-vivo RNA transfection data:

 

Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection, R W Malone, P L Felgner, and I M Verma PNAS August 1, 1989 86 (16) 6077-6081;

 

The  paper was the first showing data for DNA and RNA transfection side by side for in-vivo (the first paper for in-vivo DNA):

 

Direct gene transfer into mouse muscle in vivo. Wolff JA, Malone RW, et al. Science. 1990;247(4949 Pt 1):1465-8. Cited in 4,750 articles, is the result of that work.

 

In 1989, research was performed that gave rise to the groundbreaking patents on mRNA vaccination, all with a priority date of March 21, 1989. This is the same priority date as the Salk Patent application, showing that the two institutions were working together.  These patents are the first published research on mRNA vaccination.  The titles and links to the patents are listed in the documents below.   These patents have proof of principle experiments on mRNA vaccines - that clearly document that the invention worked and that these are the first experiments showing this.

Induction of a protective immune response in a mammal by injecting a DNA (or RNA) sequence, Patent US5589466A, Priority date 3/21/1989

 

Vical told Robert that they would license the Salk Technology (see Vical meeting minutes in the linked document page).  Instead, they hired Robert’s thesis advisor from the Salk and soon after, the Salk dropped the patent and Vical never pursued a license from the Salk.  Due to an employee contract with Vical, this stopped Robert from working in the field commercially for a decade. Vical claimed all the Salk research happened at Vical and sent a cease and desist letter.

 

Dr. Malone carried on his research into mRNA and DNA vaccination during the 1990s, culminating in a mucosal patent that was issued in 2000 and had a priority date of 1996. He also helped revolutionize the field of cationic liposomes for the use in RNA and DNA vaccinations.  This work was so far ahead of its time, that only now is the world turning to mucosal mRNA vaccination as a method of immunization.  Unfortunately, the toxicity issues from the nano lipid particles that Dr. Malone observed in his research during the 1990s were never resolved. Furthermore, the addition of pseudouridine to the mRNA, which creates a synthetic mRNA has added even more toxicity and adverse events. These issues were not resolved prior to to or during the clinical trials.  The government regulators have made little effort to investigate these issues.

 

For a listing of some of his work, see the publications on the links at the end of this page.

 

Scientifically trained at UC Davis, UC San Diego, and at the Salk Institute Molecular Biology and Virology laboratories, Dr. Malone received his medical training at Northwestern University (MD) and Harvard University Medical School (Clinical Research Post Graduate) , and in Pathology at UC Davis, He has almost 100 peer-reviewed publications, and has been an invited speaker at about 50 conferences.

 

You're about two years behind my crazy facebook aunt.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/03/technology/robert-malone-covid.html

 

Dr. Malone spent decades working in academic centers and with start-ups seeking to bring new medical treatments to market and to combat the Zika and Ebola outbreaks. But in recent months, as the coronavirus pandemic has persisted, he has taken up an entirely different role: spreading misinformation about the virus and vaccines on conservative programs.

 

In many of his appearances, Dr. Malone questions the severity of the coronavirus, which has now killed nearly one million people in the United States, and the safety of the coronavirus vaccines, which have been widely found to be safe and effective at preventing serious illness and death. His statements in late December on “The Joe Rogan Experience,” one of the most popular podcasts in the country, with 11 million listeners per episode on average, were at the center of the uproar over Mr. Rogan’s role in spreading bad information about the virus.

 

Dr. Malone also routinely sells himself on the shows as the inventor of mRNA vaccines, the technology used by Pfizer and Moderna for their Covid-19 shots, and says he doesn’t get the credit he deserves for their development. While he was involved in some early research into the technology, his role in its creation was minimal at best, say half a dozen Covid experts and researchers, including three who worked closely with Dr. Malone.

 

In spreading these exaggerations and unfounded claims, Dr. Malone joins medical professionals and scientists, like Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Judy Mikovits, whose profiles have grown during the pandemic as they spread misinformation about mask-wearing and convoluted conspiracy theories about virus experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci.

 

But unlike many of them, Dr. Malone is quite new to the right-wing media world, first appearing regularly on podcasts last June. Even two years into the pandemic, new misinformation stars are being minted. And in today’s media echo chamber — powered by social media algorithms and a tightknit network of politicians and influencers promoting debunked claims — they can quickly catapult to stardom.

 

In addition to his regular appearances on conservative shows, Dr. Malone has more than 134,000 subscribers to his Substack newsletter. About 8,000 pay the $5 monthly cost, he said, which would amount to at least $31,200 in monthly revenue. And mentions of him on social media, on cable television and in print and online news outlets have soared — to more than 300,000 so far this year, according to Zignal, a media research firm.

 

The coronavirus pandemic has “given rise to a class of influencers who build conspiracy theories and recruit as many people into them as possible,” said Emerson T. Brooking, a resident senior fellow for the Atlantic Council who studies digital platforms. “These influencers usually have a special claim to expertise and a veneer of credibility. ”And almost without exception, these influencers feel that they have been wronged by mainstream society in some way,” Mr. Brooking added.

 

Dr. Malone earned a medical degree from Northwestern University in 1991, and for the next decade taught pathology at the University of California, Davis, and the University of Maryland. He then turned to biotech start-ups and consulting. His résumé says he was “instrumental” in securing early-stage approval for research on the Ebola vaccine by the pharmaceutical company Merck in the mid-2010s. He also worked on repurposing drugs to treat Zika.

 

In extended interviews at his home over two days, Dr. Malone said he was repeatedly not recognized for his contributions over the course of his career, his voice low and grave as he recounted perceived slights by the institutions he had worked for. His wife, Dr. Jill Glasspool Malone, paced the room and pulled up articles on her laptop that she said supported his complaints.

 

The example he points to more frequently is from his time at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego. While there, he performed experiments that showed how human cells could absorb an mRNA cocktail and produce proteins from it. Those experiments, he says, make him the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology.

“I was there,” Dr. Malone said. “I wrote all the invention.”

 

What the mainstream media did instead, he said, was give credit for the mRNA vaccines to the scientists Katalin Kariko and Drew Weissman, because there “is a concerted campaign to get them the Nobel Prize” by Pfizer and BioNTech, where Dr. Kariko is a senior vice president, as well as the University of Pennsylvania, where Dr. Weissman leads a laboratory researching vaccines and infectious diseases.

But at the time he was conducting those experiments, it was not known how to protect the fragile RNA from the immune system’s attack, scientists say. Former colleagues said they had watched in astonishment as Dr. Malone began posting on social media about why he deserved to win the Nobel Prize.

The idea that he is the inventor of mRNA vaccines is “a totally false claim,” said Dr. Gyula Acsadi, a pediatrician in Connecticut who along with Dr. Malone and five others wrote a widely cited paper in 1990 showing that injecting RNA into muscle could produce proteins. (The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by injecting RNA into arm muscles that produce copies of the “spike protein” found on the outside of the coronavirus. The human immune system identifies that protein, attacks it and then remembers how to defeat it.)

 

But Dr. Malone was not the lead author on the paper and, according to Dr. Acsadi, did not make a significant contribution to the research. While the paper stated that the technology could “provide alternative approaches to vaccine development,” Dr. Acsadi said none of the other authors would claim that they invented the vaccine.
 

“Some of his work was important,” said Dr. Alastair McAlpine, a pediatric infectious disease doctor based in Vancouver, British Columbia, “but that’s a long way away from claiming to have invented the technology that underpins the vaccines as we use them today.”

 

The vaccines “are the result of hundreds of scientists all over the world, all combining to come together to form this vaccine,” Dr. McAlpine said. “It was not one individual or the pioneering work of an individual person.”

 

A spokeswoman for Penn Medicine said, “We have been excited to witness the deployment of the vaccines in the global fight against the virus and the well-deserved global recognition for Drs. Kariko and Weissman’s decades of visionary basic science research.”

 

Dr. Malone pushes back against the criticism directed at him by scientists, researchers and journalists, and dismisses the dozens of fact-checks disputing his statements as “attacks.”

 

He also continues to repeat his claims, with the help of his wife, Dr. Glasspool Malone, who is trained in biotechnology and public policy. She writes, he said, more than half of the articles posted onto his Substack newsletter — which is awash in conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 vaccines. Recent articles include “The illusion of evidence-based medicine” and “How does it feel to be vindicated?”

Dr. Malone said he did not align himself with any particular political party. But in recent months, he and his wife have made numerous stops at popular conservative conferences, like Hereticon, the Peter Thiel-backed conference in Miami for Silicon Valley’s self-proclaimed contrarians, and the “Defeat the Mandates” march in Washington.

Dr. Malone says much of the pushback he receives is because anything that questions the guidance from organizations like the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is automatically labeled misinformation by the medical establishment, as well as the technology platforms.

Many well-meaning public figures and donors committed themselves to the wrong ideas, just to be able to tell themselves that they are indeed playing a role helping to solve the crisis, he said.

 

“It is really easy to get caught up in it, and obsess, and lose perspective — and kind of lose yourself,” Dr. Malone said of them.

Many scientists and researchers say there is good-faith disagreement about how to translate fast-moving science into policy, and acknowledge that health agencies have adjusted guidelines over time, as new information is collected.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan, said such guidance was “only as reliable as the evidence behind it, and thus it should change when new evidence is obtained.”

But they say Dr. Malone has twisted legitimate policy debates to use them as cover for continuing to spread misinformation and to advance claims about the pandemic that are demonstrably incorrect.

 

Months ago, he was promoting the drugs hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin for treatment of Covid-19, despite several studies and scientific trials showing a lack of evidence that the drugs improved the conditions of Covid patients. Dr. Malone said that early on in the pandemic, he believed that what he could contribute was bringing repurposed drugs to market.

 

“All the big boys came in for the vaccines,” Dr. Malone said. “We weren’t needed for that.”

 

The Food and Drug Administration continues to caution against the use of hydroxychloroquine “due to risk of heart rhythm problems,” and a large study published in March found that ivermectin does not reduce the risk of Covid hospitalization. The F.D.A. has also said taking large doses of the drug is dangerous.

“Robert Malone is exploiting the fact that data-driven course correction is inherent to the scientific process to peddle disinformation,” Dr. Rasmussen said. “It’s extraordinarily dishonest and morally bankrupt.”

 

Edited June 4 by DSVII

[RupertKBD]

30 minutes ago, DSVII said:

 

You're about two years behind my crazy facebook aunt.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/03/technology/robert-malone-covid.html

 

Dr. Malone spent decades working in academic centers and with start-ups seeking to bring new medical treatments to market and to combat the Zika and Ebola outbreaks. But in recent months, as the coronavirus pandemic has persisted, he has taken up an entirely different role: spreading misinformation about the virus and vaccines on conservative programs.

 

In many of his appearances, Dr. Malone questions the severity of the coronavirus, which has now killed nearly one million people in the United States, and the safety of the coronavirus vaccines, which have been widely found to be safe and effective at preventing serious illness and death. His statements in late December on “The Joe Rogan Experience,” one of the most popular podcasts in the country, with 11 million listeners per episode on average, were at the center of the uproar over Mr. Rogan’s role in spreading bad information about the virus.

 

Dr. Malone also routinely sells himself on the shows as the inventor of mRNA vaccines, the technology used by Pfizer and Moderna for their Covid-19 shots, and says he doesn’t get the credit he deserves for their development. While he was involved in some early research into the technology, his role in its creation was minimal at best, say half a dozen Covid experts and researchers, including three who worked closely with Dr. Malone.

 

In spreading these exaggerations and unfounded claims, Dr. Malone joins medical professionals and scientists, like Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Judy Mikovits, whose profiles have grown during the pandemic as they spread misinformation about mask-wearing and convoluted conspiracy theories about virus experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci.

 

But unlike many of them, Dr. Malone is quite new to the right-wing media world, first appearing regularly on podcasts last June. Even two years into the pandemic, new misinformation stars are being minted. And in today’s media echo chamber — powered by social media algorithms and a tightknit network of politicians and influencers promoting debunked claims — they can quickly catapult to stardom.

 

In addition to his regular appearances on conservative shows, Dr. Malone has more than 134,000 subscribers to his Substack newsletter. About 8,000 pay the $5 monthly cost, he said, which would amount to at least $31,200 in monthly revenue. And mentions of him on social media, on cable television and in print and online news outlets have soared — to more than 300,000 so far this year, according to Zignal, a media research firm.

 

The coronavirus pandemic has “given rise to a class of influencers who build conspiracy theories and recruit as many people into them as possible,” said Emerson T. Brooking, a resident senior fellow for the Atlantic Council who studies digital platforms. “These influencers usually have a special claim to expertise and a veneer of credibility. ”And almost without exception, these influencers feel that they have been wronged by mainstream society in some way,” Mr. Brooking added.

 

Dr. Malone earned a medical degree from Northwestern University in 1991, and for the next decade taught pathology at the University of California, Davis, and the University of Maryland. He then turned to biotech start-ups and consulting. His résumé says he was “instrumental” in securing early-stage approval for research on the Ebola vaccine by the pharmaceutical company Merck in the mid-2010s. He also worked on repurposing drugs to treat Zika.

 

In extended interviews at his home over two days, Dr. Malone said he was repeatedly not recognized for his contributions over the course of his career, his voice low and grave as he recounted perceived slights by the institutions he had worked for. His wife, Dr. Jill Glasspool Malone, paced the room and pulled up articles on her laptop that she said supported his complaints.

 

The example he points to more frequently is from his time at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego. While there, he performed experiments that showed how human cells could absorb an mRNA cocktail and produce proteins from it. Those experiments, he says, make him the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology.

“I was there,” Dr. Malone said. “I wrote all the invention.”

 

What the mainstream media did instead, he said, was give credit for the mRNA vaccines to the scientists Katalin Kariko and Drew Weissman, because there “is a concerted campaign to get them the Nobel Prize” by Pfizer and BioNTech, where Dr. Kariko is a senior vice president, as well as the University of Pennsylvania, where Dr. Weissman leads a laboratory researching vaccines and infectious diseases.

But at the time he was conducting those experiments, it was not known how to protect the fragile RNA from the immune system’s attack, scientists say. Former colleagues said they had watched in astonishment as Dr. Malone began posting on social media about why he deserved to win the Nobel Prize.

The idea that he is the inventor of mRNA vaccines is “a totally false claim,” said Dr. Gyula Acsadi, a pediatrician in Connecticut who along with Dr. Malone and five others wrote a widely cited paper in 1990 showing that injecting RNA into muscle could produce proteins. (The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by injecting RNA into arm muscles that produce copies of the “spike protein” found on the outside of the coronavirus. The human immune system identifies that protein, attacks it and then remembers how to defeat it.)

 

But Dr. Malone was not the lead author on the paper and, according to Dr. Acsadi, did not make a significant contribution to the research. While the paper stated that the technology could “provide alternative approaches to vaccine development,” Dr. Acsadi said none of the other authors would claim that they invented the vaccine.
 

“Some of his work was important,” said Dr. Alastair McAlpine, a pediatric infectious disease doctor based in Vancouver, British Columbia, “but that’s a long way away from claiming to have invented the technology that underpins the vaccines as we use them today.”

 

The vaccines “are the result of hundreds of scientists all over the world, all combining to come together to form this vaccine,” Dr. McAlpine said. “It was not one individual or the pioneering work of an individual person.”

 

A spokeswoman for Penn Medicine said, “We have been excited to witness the deployment of the vaccines in the global fight against the virus and the well-deserved global recognition for Drs. Kariko and Weissman’s decades of visionary basic science research.”

 

Dr. Malone pushes back against the criticism directed at him by scientists, researchers and journalists, and dismisses the dozens of fact-checks disputing his statements as “attacks.”

 

He also continues to repeat his claims, with the help of his wife, Dr. Glasspool Malone, who is trained in biotechnology and public policy. She writes, he said, more than half of the articles posted onto his Substack newsletter — which is awash in conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 vaccines. Recent articles include “The illusion of evidence-based medicine” and “How does it feel to be vindicated?”

Dr. Malone said he did not align himself with any particular political party. But in recent months, he and his wife have made numerous stops at popular conservative conferences, like Hereticon, the Peter Thiel-backed conference in Miami for Silicon Valley’s self-proclaimed contrarians, and the “Defeat the Mandates” march in Washington.

Dr. Malone says much of the pushback he receives is because anything that questions the guidance from organizations like the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is automatically labeled misinformation by the medical establishment, as well as the technology platforms.

Many well-meaning public figures and donors committed themselves to the wrong ideas, just to be able to tell themselves that they are indeed playing a role helping to solve the crisis, he said.

 

“It is really easy to get caught up in it, and obsess, and lose perspective — and kind of lose yourself,” Dr. Malone said of them.

Many scientists and researchers say there is good-faith disagreement about how to translate fast-moving science into policy, and acknowledge that health agencies have adjusted guidelines over time, as new information is collected.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan, said such guidance was “only as reliable as the evidence behind it, and thus it should change when new evidence is obtained.”

But they say Dr. Malone has twisted legitimate policy debates to use them as cover for continuing to spread misinformation and to advance claims about the pandemic that are demonstrably incorrect.

 

Months ago, he was promoting the drugs hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin for treatment of Covid-19, despite several studies and scientific trials showing a lack of evidence that the drugs improved the conditions of Covid patients. Dr. Malone said that early on in the pandemic, he believed that what he could contribute was bringing repurposed drugs to market.

 

“All the big boys came in for the vaccines,” Dr. Malone said. “We weren’t needed for that.”

 

The Food and Drug Administration continues to caution against the use of hydroxychloroquine “due to risk of heart rhythm problems,” and a large study published in March found that ivermectin does not reduce the risk of Covid hospitalization. The F.D.A. has also said taking large doses of the drug is dangerous.

“Robert Malone is exploiting the fact that data-driven course correction is inherent to the scientific process to peddle disinformation,” Dr. Rasmussen said. “It’s extraordinarily dishonest and morally bankrupt.”

 

 

...or, in terms that anyone can understand:

 

[Xanlet]

5 hours ago, PureQuickness said:

 

Yes, he made up the rules, which is what he thought was the best way of preventing COVID. Maybe it worked. Maybe it didn't. He didn't have any other pandemic to refer to it.

Personally I find it a little disturbing that the government enforced certain behaviors of the general public on the basis of what a bureaucrat just made up with zero evidentiary reasoning.

 

Public health guidelines should be based on rigorous scientific conclusions. The fact that we now know that fundamental rules which were enforced had zero actual substance is alarming.

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

Personally I find it a little disturbing that the government enforced certain behaviors of the general public on the basis of what a bureaucrat just made up with zero evidentiary reasoning.

 

Public health guidelines should be based on rigorous scientific conclusions. The fact that we now know that fundamental rules which were enforced had zero actual substance is alarming.

Next time we are faced with a new, unknown, fast-evolving pathogen that is quickly unfolding in real time while killing people in their millions world wide we can put you in charge.  That way we will know there won't be any missteps along the way. 

 

 

[4petesake]

6 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

Personally I find it a little disturbing that the government enforced certain behaviors of the general public on the basis of what a bureaucrat just made up with zero evidentiary reasoning.

 

Public health guidelines should be based on rigorous scientific conclusions. The fact that we now know that fundamental rules which were enforced had zero actual substance is alarming.

 

So do nothing for a couple of years until guidelines used by various countries for a new pandemic have been rigorously studied? Then choose the best ones to keep whatever population has survived safe. 
 

Gotcha, good plan.

[Xanlet]

Just now, Satchmo said:

Next time we are faced with a new, unknown, fast-evolving pathogen that is quickly unfolding in real time while killing people in their millions world wide we can put you in charge.  That way we will know there won't be any missteps along the way. 

 

 

My first order of business would be to ensure people maintained trust in public health guidelines by not just making things up.

 

Once you do this kind of thing, you're just going to breed noncompliance. The people in charge of this pandemic response not only bungled it by enforcing policies with no evidence, but they've set us up for WAY WORSE in future pandemics because huge numbers of people won't trust anything public health officials say; and you know what? They'll have good reason.

[Spur1]

1 hour ago, Satchmo said:

Next time we are faced with a new, unknown, fast-evolving pathogen that is quickly unfolding in real time while killing people in their millions world wide we can put you in charge.  That way we will know there won't be any missteps along the way. 

 

 

My cousin the undertaker will be busy. 

[UncleBen]

1 hour ago, Satchmo said:

Next time we are faced with a new, unknown, fast-evolving pathogen that is quickly unfolding in real time while killing people in their millions world wide we can put you in charge.  That way we will know there won't be any missteps along the way. 

 

 

How about a better idea..we don't put people in charge that are creating these Frankenstein gain of function viruses ( Fauci snd NIH )and then lockdown economies causing more harm than good or groups that war gamed this scenario before it even happened 

 

https://centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/tabletop-exercises/event-201-pandemic-tabletop-exercise

[Cerridwen]

4 1/2 years..... 54 months... 1620 days (+/- 10 or so)  I managed to avoid getting COVID. And 1 fecking old coughing/sneezing/ spewing, unmasked fart on emergency bus that had us Via Rail Toronto to Vancouver passengers bussing around the 200 cars long, 20 freight cars derailment, has managed to give my sister and I (and no doubt many others) COVID. We have now inadvertently exposed our elderly mother who is in mid-stage dementia. I am SO fucking pissed. And wouldn't you know it, all 3 of us were scheduled to have our next boosters in the next 2 weeks.

I hate to think what this would have been like NON-vaxxed. 

Got home late Sunday night....Covid hit so hard and fast that I had to sleep sitting up all night Monday due to coughing...I'd like the name of the semi-driver that ran me over, backed up over me twice and ran me over again. So, quarantined here on the Sunshine Coast til  this is done....missing important  eye appt to discuss eye surgery in PG next week... old fecking dude  better be happy he is far, FAR from me.... 

I AM SO BEYOND PISSED!!! 

 

I had actually said to my sister (who has also tested + with me) while the old goat was coughing, sneezing, hacking up a lung unmasked behind me, that I better not get COVID from him or I was going to hunt him down and sue his f*cking ass off. 

 

(Have I mentioned that I'm beyond pissed?) 

 

EDIT Wednesday morning:  Well, just f*cking great.... we gave COVID to our Mom.

 

 

used 'cause it looks like it's flipping the double bird salute 

 

 

Edited June 5 by Cerridwen

[Xanlet]

9 hours ago, 4petesake said:

 

So do nothing for a couple of years until guidelines used by various countries for a new pandemic have been rigorously studied? Then choose the best ones to keep whatever population has survived safe. 
 

Gotcha, good plan.

You presuppose that just "doing something" protects people. Any given measure should already have data backing it, just because a novel virus causes a pandemic does not mean we have zero information about how transmission works and what measures actually prevent it.

 

In my opinion, we should be more like Sweden next time around. Here is a good overview which notes that "Sweden was among the few countries that did not enforce strict lockdown measures" and " the available data on excess all-cause mortality rates indicate that Sweden experienced fewer deaths per population unit during the pandemic (2020–2022) than most high-income countries"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10399217/

 

(source is a Swiss multidisciplinary open-access journal, Frontiers in Public Health, and the article is hosted by the NIH, an agency of the US government)

 

Again, we should examine all data closely and be on the lookout for what works and what doesn't and continually reevaluate our positions. From my perspective, the data does not seem to support harsh lockdown policies.

 

To be extra clear, I would also like to see further research on what differences there might be in the countries that had relatively good outcomes through the pandemic to try and isolate the things that actually made a positive impact.

[4petesake]

2 hours ago, Xanlet said:

You presuppose that just "doing something" protects people. Any given measure should already have data backing it, just because a novel virus causes a pandemic does not mean we have zero information about how transmission works and what measures actually prevent it.

 

In my opinion, we should be more like Sweden next time around. Here is a good overview which notes that "Sweden was among the few countries that did not enforce strict lockdown measures" and " the available data on excess all-cause mortality rates indicate that Sweden experienced fewer deaths per population unit during the pandemic (2020–2022) than most high-income countries"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10399217/

 

(source is a Swiss multidisciplinary open-access journal, Frontiers in Public Health, and the article is hosted by the NIH, an agency of the US government)

 

Again, we should examine all data closely and be on the lookout for what works and what doesn't and continually reevaluate our positions. From my perspective, the data does not seem to support harsh lockdown policies.

 

To be extra clear, I would also like to see further research on what differences there might be in the countries that had relatively good outcomes through the pandemic to try and isolate the things that actually made a positive impact.

 

I don’t pre-suppose anything. Measures that were taken were made with what information was available at the time, with realtime pressures on critical facilities and equipment; hospitals, doctors, nurses, technicians, ppe, ventilators… For example BC didn’t have to evacuate patients needing ventilators to other provinces like Alberta did.

Of course we should study data from countries that took different measures as you point out with Sweden to find out what may be applicable here. We can and should do better in the future so we need to be talking about successes and failures. What we don’t need is the blame game and looking for conspiracy crap that is so rampant now.

 

[Gurn]

I was wondering how long it would take to resurrect the 'Swedish myth'.

 

 

[Xanlet]

2 hours ago, Gurn said:

I was wondering how long it would take to resurrect the 'Swedish myth'.

 

 

Can you elaborate on why you think Sweden is so mythical?

[the destroyer of worlds]

Sure, let's follow Sweden.  Sweden's larger population doesn't fully explain their poor performance compared to their Scandinavian neighbours.  

 

 

 

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Xanlet said:

Can you elaborate on why you think Sweden is so mythical?

They are not the success story you make them out to be.

 

Corona Commission

Formed of a panel of 8 experts, the commission was established by the Government of Sweden in 2020 following pressure from the Riksdag. In December 2020, a report by the commission criticised the government for failing to protect elderly people in aged care due to the high level of community spread.

 

Abstract

Aim: Sweden initially chose a different disease prevention and control path during the pandemic than many other European countries. In June 2020, the Swedish Government established a National Commission to examine the management of COVID-19 in Sweden. This paper summarises, and discusses, its findings.

Methods: Three reports published by the Commission were analysed. The first focused on the care of older people during the pandemic. The second examined disease and infection transmission and control and health care and public health. The third updated the first two reports and also covered economic aspects, crisis management and public communication.

Results: By 25 February 2022, when the final report was published, 15 800 individuals, 1.5 per 1000 Swedish inhabitants, had died after COVID-19. The death rates were high in spring 2020, but overall excess mortality in 2020-2021 was +0.79%, which was lower than in many other European countries. The Commission suggested that the voluntary measures that were adopted were appropriate and maintained Swedes' personal freedom during the pandemic. However, more extensive and earlier measures should have been taken, especially during the first wave.

Conclusion: The Swedish COVID-19 Commission felt that earlier and more extensive pandemic action should have been taken, particularly during the first wave.

[the destroyer of worlds]

Does this sound like Sweden should be followed?   When their PM has to come out and admit they weren't prepared.  The King publicly admits they failed.  The architect of their strategy says:

In an interview with Swedish Radio, Anders Tegnell agreed with the interviewer that too many people had died in the country.1 “There is quite obviously a potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden,” 

 

Does it?

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-2

Sweden prime minister admits country was not prepared for COVID-19 second wave

Lofven's remarks come hours before the release of an independent report which found that the country failed to account for systemic issues within its elderly care system when protecting its senior population

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Does this sound like Sweden should be followed?   When their PM has to come out and admit they weren't prepared.  The King publicly admits they failed.  The architect of their strategy says:

In an interview with Swedish Radio, Anders Tegnell agreed with the interviewer that too many people had died in the country.1 “There is quite obviously a potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden,” 

 

Does it?

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-2

Sweden prime minister admits country was not prepared for COVID-19 second wave

Lofven's remarks come hours before the release of an independent report which found that the country failed to account for systemic issues within its elderly care system when protecting its senior population

Maybe our recent posts will fall on deaf ears to anyone who takes 'Give me liberty or give me death' really seriously.  (Although some of those people got both.)

[Xanlet]

43 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Sure, let's follow Sweden.  Sweden's larger population doesn't fully explain their poor performance compared to their Scandinavian neighbours.  

 

 

 

 

 

It is interesting that the neighboring countries had low rates of death and they should be examined as well, however my point stands because when you compare Sweden against the rest of Europe, they performed significantly better than almost all the other countries which did implement harsh lockdowns. As this table shows in the article I posted.

 

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10399217/)

 

It's interesting to note that their "stringency index" calculated Denmark as the second lowest behind Sweden, I'd be interested to look into what their response was because clearly from this chart they fared the best.

 

To sum up, the other Scandinavian countries did exceptionally well and they were stricter than Sweden, but the two least restrictive countries of Europe were Sweden and Denmark and they were both in the top 3 in lowest excess mortality through the pandemic. Interestingly, my source shows Finland doing much worse than your source showed, that would also be useful to examine.

Edited June 5 by Xanlet

[Whorvat]

15 hours ago, Cerridwen said:

4 1/2 years..... 54 months... 1620 days (+/- 10 or so)  I managed to avoid getting COVID. And 1 fecking old coughing/sneezing/ spewing, unmasked fart on emergency bus that had us Via Rail Toronto to Vancouver passengers bussing around the 200 cars long, 20 freight cars derailment, has managed to give my sister and I (and no doubt many others) COVID. We have now inadvertently exposed our elderly mother who is in mid-stage dementia. I am SO fucking pissed. And wouldn't you know it, all 3 of us were scheduled to have our next boosters in the next 2 weeks.

I hate to think what this would have been like NON-vaxxed. 

Got home late Sunday night....Covid hit so hard and fast that I had to sleep sitting up all night Monday due to coughing...I'd like the name of the semi-driver that ran me over, backed up over me twice and ran me over again. So, quarantined here on the Sunshine Coast til  this is done....missing important  eye appt to discuss eye surgery in PG next week... old fecking dude  better be happy he is far, FAR from me.... 

I AM SO BEYOND PISSED!!! 

 

I had actually said to my sister (who has also tested + with me) while the old goat was coughing, sneezing, hacking up a lung unmasked behind me, that I better not get COVID from him or I was going to hunt him down and sue his f*cking ass off. 

 

(Have I mentioned that I'm beyond pissed?) 

 

EDIT Wednesday morning:  Well, just f*cking great.... we gave COVID to our Mom.

 

 

used 'cause it looks like it's flipping the double bird salute 

 

 

Will start off by stating that I hope your family and you make a full recovery, with no long lasting effects.

 

Following that, do you -actually- think a current covid booster shot would have prevented you from getting covid? 

 

4 1/2 years.... 54 months... 1620 days... and you still believe that the vaccines are effective? 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Whorvat said:

Will start off by stating that I hope your family and you make a full recovery, with no long lasting effects.

 

Following that, do you -actually- think a current covid booster shot would have prevented you from getting covid? 

 

4 1/2 years.... 54 months... 1620 days... and you still believe that the vaccines are effective? 

 

how many times do you need to hear the message that boosters help to reduce the severity of the disease, if you do end up catching it? 

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Whorvat said:

Will start off by stating that I hope your family and you make a full recovery, with no long lasting effects.

 

Following that, do you -actually- think a current covid booster shot would have prevented you from getting covid? 

 

4 1/2 years.... 54 months... 1620 days... and you still believe that the vaccines are effective? 

I'll let Cerriwiden - who I sincerely hope is doing well - answer but do you still disbelieve that a vaccine would not have lessened these symptoms or even removed them completely?

 

Covid hit so hard and fast that I had to sleep sitting up all night Monday due to coughing...I'd like the name of the semi-driver that ran me over, backed up over me twice and ran me over again.