This trade just sucks

[Jeremy Hronek]

28 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Auston Matthews isn't a play driver.  He gets paid to score goals.  He has 25 assists.  Petey has 46 assists.  So they aren't even close in terms of play driving.

 

Yes, we did have a problem.  The problem was that Kuzmenko doesn't know how to play defense.  And it looks like Calgary has also figured that out.  So, Conroy isn't as smart as some people think.  Kuzmenko won't be easy to move next year, they may not get much for him.  And our 1st round pick will be a very low first.  Hunter B may not even play in the NHL, and if he does he may be Tyson Barrie 2.0.

 

In terms of Lindholm, he may not be a 40 goal scorer any longer, but he is elite defensively.  He can easily be our 3C long term.  He's not going to get $8 million if he puts up 50 points this year.  $6 million would be the maximum I think.  

 

As for chemistry, I don't think that is the problem.  The problem right now is we are tired and worn out and that 9 game home stand is looking real good right now. Also, missing Joshua is bigger than some people think.  Our 3rd line is not the same without him.  He is more important than Garland.

Agree with you on Matthews but I think most people would agree that Matthews is a class above Pettersson.  
 

My point with Kuzmenko is that the Canucks were winning games even with Kuzmenko shitting it up on the 2nd line.  Lotto Line and Garland gave us all of the primary and secondary scoring that we needed.  My ultimate point is that we should go back to that instead of trying to over-cater to Lindholm.  Have Lindholm form a super shut down line with Mikheyev and Suter, and re-unite the Lotto line.

 

Agree with you on Joshua.  Try PDG on that line while he’s out instead of Bains.  

[Pears]

14 minutes ago, Darius said:

Id like to see what he can do with Joshua and Garland.  Despite his slowdown in points in the past 4 or 5 games I think he has more offensive upside than Blueger.

 

Having Blueger on the 4th line improves the 4c position too.

I like this too. Miller-Petey-Lindholm-Blueger down the middle would be a huge advantage in the playoffs. I still think the lotto line is the way to go though. 

[DixonWard]

I think Lindholm and the coaches are just finding the fit.  He is a great player.  He also has to get out of the funk that the Flames put him in.

 

Try this:

 

Lotto (best line in the league)

Hoglander Lindholm Mikheyev (great defensively with offensive upside Mik will get going without the pressure of playing with EP)

Joshua Blueger Garland (best 3rd line in the league)

Lafferty Aman PDG (hard working forecheckers)

[Moeknows]

10 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Yep agreed. Now who to blame. I don't think PA or JR are directly responsible - I think it should come down to our scouts. They're the ones watching the games. If you watch any of Calgary's games over the last year you can see how solid Lindholm is defensively, but how he sacrifices a lot of offence for defence. That's fine, and people have been tempted in by him due to his once-off 40G, 80P season playing with two 100pt stars. Good scouts would be able to isolate his performance from them. Just watch any of Calgary's games this season or even last year. Last year he was what a 60 point solid defensive player. He may not be playing with good linemates but he's playing 20 minutes on their top line and top PP. He's getting opportunities but still not scoring much.

 

All this talk about him getting 8M is rediculous - he's on a 4-5M contract right now and playing like it. He's our 3rd line checking center right now. Monahan is outscoring him.

 

Personally I hate the idea of a top team full of stars acquiring another star - it throws the chemistry and balance right off, especially mid-season, and that's what we've done. The deals you make mid season or at the TDL are depth ones to improve depth going into the playoffs, not a star player to throw out chemistry off. The pieces we gave up weren't massive but they were numerous.

 

Not a fan of the trade, obviously it'll get judged in the post-season big time but so far Lindholm has been the same if not much worse than he was in Calgary. Not directly PA's fault, but his scouts should have told him he's a shell of his former self. Conroy knew what he was doing and cashed in big time by selling him based on potential and former production instead of what he's doing now.

It appears we got fleeced

[Bardown]

10 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Yep agreed. Now who to blame. I don't think PA or JR are directly responsible - I think it should come down to our scouts. They're the ones watching the games. If you watch any of Calgary's games over the last year you can see how solid Lindholm is defensively, but how he sacrifices a lot of offence for defence. That's fine, and people have been tempted in by him due to his once-off 40G, 80P season playing with two 100pt stars. Good scouts would be able to isolate his performance from them. Just watch any of Calgary's games this season or even last year. Last year he was what a 60 point solid defensive player. He may not be playing with good linemates but he's playing 20 minutes on their top line and top PP. He's getting opportunities but still not scoring much.

 

All this talk about him getting 8M is rediculous - he's on a 4-5M contract right now and playing like it. He's our 3rd line checking center right now. Monahan is outscoring him.

 

Personally I hate the idea of a top team full of stars acquiring another star - it throws the chemistry and balance right off, especially mid-season, and that's what we've done. The deals you make mid season or at the TDL are depth ones to improve depth going into the playoffs, not a star player to throw out chemistry off. The pieces we gave up weren't massive but they were numerous.

 

Not a fan of the trade, obviously it'll get judged in the post-season big time but so far Lindholm has been the same if not much worse than he was in Calgary. Not directly PA's fault, but his scouts should have told him he's a shell of his former self. Conroy knew what he was doing and cashed in big time by selling him based on potential and former production instead of what he's doing now.

He hasn't seemed to gel with anyone YET, so yes it doesn't look great so far. But I will give him some time. I care about the playoffs, I also know finding chemistry with new players can take some time (its literally why JR likes making trades well ahead of the deadline).

 

He was brought in to help us as we get past the first round and things get tougher, I'll reserve judgment until then. That being said, the concerns of giving up our first are a bit sillly, our pick is going to be at the bottom of the first round, we didn't give up some future 100 pt player. More likely a player who may or may not make the NHL at all.

[Moeknows]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Auston Matthews isn't a play driver.  He gets paid to score goals.  He has 25 assists.  Petey has 46 assists.  So they aren't even close in terms of play driving.

 

Yes, we did have a problem.  The problem was that Kuzmenko doesn't know how to play defense.  And it looks like Calgary has also figured that out.  So, Conroy isn't as smart as some people think.  Kuzmenko won't be easy to move next year, they may not get much for him.  And our 1st round pick will be a very low first.  Hunter B may not even play in the NHL, and if he does he may be Tyson Barrie 2.0.

 

In terms of Lindholm, he may not be a 40 goal scorer any longer, but he is elite defensively.  He can easily be our 3C long term.  He's not going to get $8 million if he puts up 50 points this year.  $6 million would be the maximum I think.  

 

As for chemistry, I don't think that is the problem.  The problem right now is we are tired and worn out and that 9 game home stand is looking real good right now. Also, missing Joshua is bigger than some people think.  Our 3rd line is not the same without him.  He is more important than Garland.

He's sick not benched. Read their stuff they quite like him

[Elias Pettersson]

32 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Agree with you on Matthews but I think most people would agree that Matthews is a class above Pettersson.  
 

My point with Kuzmenko is that the Canucks were winning games even with Kuzmenko shitting it up on the 2nd line.  Lotto Line and Garland gave us all of the primary and secondary scoring that we needed.  My ultimate point is that we should go back to that instead of trying to over-cater to Lindholm.  Have Lindholm form a super shut down line with Mikheyev and Suter, and re-unite the Lotto line.

 

Agree with you on Joshua.  Try PDG on that line while he’s out instead of Bains.  

 

The 3rd line hasn't been the same since Joshua was injured.  That's the main problem right now.  Kuzmenko had no chemistry with Petey, so Lindholm isn't making it worse.  Hoglander was taken off the 4th line, so that line isn't going right now either.

 

So, we really only have one line going right now.  This is the issue.  If we get Joshua back and move Hoglander back to the 4th line, then we'd be in the exact situation as before Kuzmenko was traded.  

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, Moeknows said:

He's sick not benched. Read their stuff they quite like him

 

The last two games before he got sick, he played 11:49 and 10:25 and was on the 4th line...

[Goose]

On the face of it I was wondering if Lindholm is a play driver which is what I thought the Canucks needed.  

 

Hoagie EP Lindholm should be a good line on paper.  

 

LA exposed what the Canucks need which the ability to dump and chase.  If Mikheyev isnt going to get it done I think they need to replace him w someone who does.  

 

 

[Hairy Kneel]

2 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Mikeyev's "use" elsewhere hasn't amounted to much in the past 30 games. At $1-2M per season, he'd be a decent player, but at the $4.75M he's underperforming. Some have said that he's still recovering from his injury, but his skating and movement don't allude to such an excuse. And if he is still recovering, he shouldn't be playing, which I don't think Tocc, Alvin, or Rutherford would allow. 

We have to sweep that contract elsewhere and put that money on a decent forward. We can't hide that fat contract in the bottom 6 anymore. 

Mik isn't the defensive forward we needed. 

We got those already. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

51 minutes ago, Bardown said:

He hasn't seemed to gel with anyone YET, so yes it doesn't look great so far. But I will give him some time. I care about the playoffs, I also know finding chemistry with new players can take some time (its literally why JR likes making trades well ahead of the deadline).

 

He was brought in to help us as we get past the first round and things get tougher, I'll reserve judgment until then. That being said, the concerns of giving up our first are a bit sillly, our pick is going to be at the bottom of the first round, we didn't give up some future 100 pt player. More likely a player who may or may not make the NHL at all.

 

Yeah the pieces going back aren't that big a deal but I feel like that package could have secured a lot of centers, most of whom would have performed better than Lindholm so far. Of course we can't judge the entirety of the trade until Lindholm's time is done with us, but we're 13 games in and for a rental that's like a third of his time as a Canuck and he's sucked. He doesn't have that long to get it together.

 

Of course if he becomes a beast in the playoffs then great, the trade is worth it, but so far we haven't seen any signs of this for a long time. Not this year with the Canucks, not this year with Calgary, not even really last season.

 

Just feel as though our scouts should have dodged this one and gone after a better center. Everyone ragging on Monahan but he's moved around for good reason - the guy bags goals and produces no matter which team he's on. Henrique out here putting up a solid season on a dead-beat team as well. These guys would have costed us a lot less than what we gave up for Lindholm.

 

I wonder if the package we gave up for Lindholm could have gotten us Tanev + Monahan...

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Hopefully things will improve and no reason they shouldn't on paper.  But I said the same thing when we acquired Sean Burke but then we just gave up after he went 2-9-4 and cut our losses with the near Hall of Famer.  Expected (or hoped for) bigger things from Derek Roy, Eric Weinrich, Jimmy Carson, Gary Leeman, Stephane Morin, Vladimir Krutov and several others with decent resumes in their Canuck days.

 

The one that truly disappointed me was Geoff Sanderson.   Was only 25-26 or so, close to 50 a couple times, regular 30 plus goal scorer, and came in and whiffed.  

 

Sean Burke too, same era.   Just checked, 9 games and gone...only 25,  355 career goals.   Keenan era.   Irbe.  Essensa.  Potvin.  

Edited March 1 by IBatch

[PhillipBlunt]

22 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

We have to sweep that contract elsewhere and put that money on a decent forward. We can't hide that fat contract in the bottom 6 anymore. 

Mik isn't the defensive forward we needed. 

We got those already. 

Switching him out for a bigger forward with more aggression is key.

[Hairy Kneel]

5 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Switching him out for a bigger forward with more aggression is key.

Because he can't score anymore, we can't have him eating food off of Blueger's, Suter's or Lafferty's plates anymore. Those guys are paid accordingly.  They earned their spots 

[Kevin Biestra]

38 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The one that truly disappointed me was Geoff Sanderson.   Was only 25-26 or so, close to 50 a couple times, regular 30 plus goal scorer, and came in and whiffed.  

 

Sean Burke too, same era.   Just checked, 9 games and gone...only 25,  355 career goals.   Keenan era.   Irbe.  Essensa.  Potvin.  

 

Yeah we actually acquired Geoff Sanderson twice and both times gave up on him pretty quickly.  We had his Whalers setup man Andrew Cassels as well and at least he stuck and scored some points.

[occ78]

54 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Switching him out for a bigger forward with more aggression is key.

Exactly what I am saying 

 

Power forward with size and skill is what Petey and Hoglander needs so they don’t have to do the dirty work and gets pushed around (potential injury)

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by occ78

[PhillipBlunt]

12 minutes ago, occ78 said:

Exactly what I am saying 

 

Power forward with size and skill is what Petey and Hoglander needs so they don’t have to do the dirty work and gets pushed around (potential injury)

 

 

 

 

Who?

[occ78]

59 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Who?

Someone like Alex Tuch (i know it’s difficult) Lawson Crouse,   Take a chance on Josh Anderson (trade Mikheyev), 

Antony Mantha he got the size and fights occasionally 

 

somone like this 

 

 

Edited March 1 by occ78

[occ78]

Not sure how they can make the cap work but they’ll do something 

Edited March 1 by occ78

[PhillipBlunt]

14 minutes ago, occ78 said:

Someone like Alex Tuch (i know it’s difficult) Lawson Crouse,   Take a chance on Josh Anderson (trade Mikheyev), 

Antony Mantha he got the size and fights occasionally 

 

somone like this 

Tuch or Crouse would be ideal, but very expensive to acquire, especially with the payday coming to Pettersson. Josh Anderson is supposedly pretty expensive too. Mantha, while huge, is inconsistent.

[Bobby James]

I think the trade is pretty much what a top 6 two way center is going to cost you. I agree that he hasn't played great so far. 

 

However, these are always going to be the risks when it comes to loading up for playoffs and getting a rental. The cost typically hurts and there is no guarantee he fits. 

 

The real test will be come playoff time and how he does, but yeah Lindholm really needs to start showing more. Maybe they should put him back on Petey's line with Hoggy and we can see how that goes again for a few games. 

[Moeknows]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

The last two games before he got sick, he played 11:49 and 10:25 and was on the 4th line...

They're trying to bring scoring to the 4th line 

[Alflives]

15 hours ago, occ78 said:

Bringing lindholm made the team worse and gave up all that assets including #1 pick 

 

[kilgore]

14 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Yep agreed. Now who to blame. I don't think PA or JR are directly responsible - I think it should come down to our scouts. They're the ones watching the games. If you watch any of Calgary's games over the last year you can see how solid Lindholm is defensively, but how he sacrifices a lot of offence for defence. That's fine, and people have been tempted in by him due to his once-off 40G, 80P season playing with two 100pt stars. Good scouts would be able to isolate his performance from them. Just watch any of Calgary's games this season or even last year. Last year he was what a 60 point solid defensive player. He may not be playing with good linemates but he's playing 20 minutes on their top line and top PP. He's getting opportunities but still not scoring much.

 

All this talk about him getting 8M is rediculous - he's on a 4-5M contract right now and playing like it. He's our 3rd line checking center right now. Monahan is outscoring him.

 

Personally I hate the idea of a top team full of stars acquiring another star - it throws the chemistry and balance right off, especially mid-season, and that's what we've done. The deals you make mid season or at the TDL are depth ones to improve depth going into the playoffs, not a star player to throw out chemistry off. The pieces we gave up weren't massive but they were numerous.

 

Not a fan of the trade, obviously it'll get judged in the post-season big time but so far Lindholm has been the same if not much worse than he was in Calgary. Not directly PA's fault, but his scouts should have told him he's a shell of his former self. Conroy knew what he was doing and cashed in big time by selling him based on potential and former production instead of what he's doing now.

 

It sure seems like you are right.  For now.

I'm willing to give it more time.  Including the playoffs. For what we gave up, I was not a fan of the trade when I heard it, and he will have to step it up more for me to feel good about the trade.  But I can't knock it too bad yet, especially looking at the track record of JR and PA. 

 

I suspect a part of that decision was made to appease Pettersson into signing. Here, look, another good Swedish countryman to play with.  Such a  big assumption that just because they are both Swedes, they will mesh well.  Just like LE and the twins.

 

But would that 1st round pick have been better spent on Tanev?  That is what I am lamenting.  We could have had Tanev here by now if they'd offered it. And maybe nothing else. A 5th round throw in maybe.  We'd have also cleared up more cap space, as Chris would have signed for a discount to play here, while Lindholm will demand whatever the market will bear. 

 

Then we look at other forward options. If Lindholm is now no more than a shut down third line center, we could have filled that spot with someone else.  How awesome our D would look right now with Tanev as the final piece to the puzzle.  Plus it would restore some of the bad ju ju since he was unceremoniously ignored and dumped to Calgary.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

5 hours ago, Darius said:

Can you post some proof that he was put on his own line because he was dragging down EP?  Or is this  your interpretation?

 

Coach has come out more than once and said he likes having the centers spread out on their own lines.

Eye test is pretty bad for both Petey and Lindholm since the trade. They are both excellent on the defensive side of the puck though, everything I'm saying is about offense. We're running 3 centers to try and get them all going and give us options. Idk what you want as evidence, it's really all in front of us.