Sneakystink Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 5 hours ago, DrJockitch said: Stone has a lacerated spleen. That is a hard injury to fake. ‘If we had LTIR space and where defending cup champs I think we would all be upset if we didn’t use the LTIR space to repeat. TB was much more sketchy about it than Vegas ever was. This is the third year in a row though around the same time and the same player. I wonder what next year's injury will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27 Percent Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 6 hours ago, DrJockitch said: Stone has a lacerated spleen. That is a hard injury to fake. ‘If we had LTIR space and where defending cup champs I think we would all be upset if we didn’t use the LTIR space to repeat. TB was much more sketchy about it than Vegas ever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 34 minutes ago, 27 Percent said: So, an older injury prone player is injury prone So many conspiracies here. Bettman is out to get us, the lottery is fixed, the ref’s have it out for us specifically. this board is worse than Q-Anon sometimes for the amount of fantasy crap that people believe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27 Percent Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: So, an older injury prone player is injury prone So many conspiracies here. Bettman is out to get us, the lottery is fixed, the ref’s have it out for us specifically. this board is worse than Q-Anon sometimes for the amount of fantasy crap that people believe. Note the dates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 7 hours ago, DrJockitch said: Stone has a lacerated spleen. That is a hard injury to fake. ‘If we had LTIR space and where defending cup champs I think we would all be upset if we didn’t use the LTIR space to repeat. TB was much more sketchy about it than Vegas ever was. The timing is fortuitous for Vegas, but yeah, Stone's injury is no joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergiomomesso Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 20 hours ago, DeNiro said: They were promised Celebrini if they helped Vegas out. We were promised Celebrini and they delivered. Just the wrong one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 11 hours ago, DrJockitch said: Stone has a lacerated spleen. That is a hard injury to fake. ‘If we had LTIR space and where defending cup champs I think we would all be upset if we didn’t use the LTIR space to repeat. TB was much more sketchy about it than Vegas ever was. That is not even the point. The point is league playoffs should be fair and equal for every team. When a team is entering the playoffs with a roster that has a 93million salary vs 83million, that is unfair. The loophole should be closed immediately, not wait 5 years, 10 years, or how ever long it's been there. And this is not a once in a bluemoon thing, it seems to happen every year. 1-2 teams get to stack up their team because of LTIR. Colorado is one of these teams too, they shopped at TDL and then the stars align and Landeskog's return magically aligns just before the playoffs. I am shocked no one returns from LT injury just before trade deadline. But everyone seems to be ok just before playoffs. And no offense to the injury. You never know. A lacerated spleen may just mean a bruised spleen. Edited March 10 by Drakrami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Drakrami said: That is not even the point. The point is league playoffs should be fair and equal for every team. When a team is entering the playoffs with a roster that has a 93million salary vs 83million, that is unfair. The loophole should be closed immediately, not wait 5 years, 10 years, or how ever long it's been there. And this is not a once in a bluemoon thing, it seems to happen every year. 1-2 teams get to stack up their team because of LTIR. Colorado is one of these teams too, they shopped at TDL and then the stars align and Landeskog's return magically aligns just before the playoffs. I am shocked no one returns from LT injury just before trade deadline. But everyone seems to be ok just before playoffs. How are they going to close a loophole that lets you put a player in when one is injured? Force teams to play with shrinking rosters. The point is that everyone thinks Vegas is gaming the system with a legitimate injury that can’t be faked and they are doing everything they can in the CBA. That isn’t scuzzy, that isn’t a problem, that is good management working within the CBA negotiated with the PA. Both sides seem happy with it. Is just the bitter fans who wish that their team could do the same griping. Edited March 10 by DrJockitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: How are they going to close a loophole that lets you put a player in when one is injured? Force teams to play with shrinking rosters. The point is that everyone thinks Vegas is gaming the system with a legitimate injury that can’t be faked and they are doing everything they can in the CBA. That isn’t scuzzy, that isn’t a problem, that is good management working within the CBA negotiated with the PA. Both sides seem happy with it. Is just the bitter fans who wish that their team could do the same griping. What do you mean they can't close a loophole? This is not even hard, I can think of many ways. They can change the definition of LTIR. LTIR can only be activated if the medical assesement timeline is after the playoffs. They can make the salary cap still count during the playoffs. There are many party interests to consider, I will leave that out. But saying that the loophole is there because it is inevitable is just nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 11 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: How are they going to close a loophole that lets you put a player in when one is injured? Force teams to play with shrinking rosters. The point is that everyone thinks Vegas is gaming the system with a legitimate injury that can’t be faked and they are doing everything they can in the CBA. That isn’t scuzzy, that isn’t a problem, that is good management working within the CBA negotiated with the PA. Both sides seem happy with it. Is just the bitter fans who wish that their team could do the same griping. I think its the idea that they have the ability to field a team over the cap for the playoffs, if everyone suddenly found their health. Vegas would have a 93 million cap if everyone came off LTIR today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 33 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: How are they going to close a loophole that lets you put a player in when one is injured? Force teams to play with shrinking rosters. The point is that everyone thinks Vegas is gaming the system with a legitimate injury that can’t be faked and they are doing everything they can in the CBA. That isn’t scuzzy, that isn’t a problem, that is good management working within the CBA negotiated with the PA. Both sides seem happy with it. Is just the bitter fans who wish that their team could do the same griping. I mean, there are ways to fix it. I am no expert but changing how much of a player's cap can be used via LTIR can change. Instead of giving Vegas Stone's entire 9.5mil as free cap give them 50% of it or something. That way they can still afford to call someone up. Yes. This would also effect us with the Poolman cap, but if it means Vegas and Tampa can't keep going into the playoffs with 10+mil more cap spent than everyone else, I think it's fair. Smarter people than me should surely be able to think of a way to balance the playing field. Even Toronto abused it by swapping Timmins to LTIR, conveniently, around TDL time. LTIR is supposed to be so teams can call up players to cover for the injured ones. It shouldn't be used to give teams nearly 10mil in free cap space. Lol. I don't get how you're arguing against changing this. You don't think that teams increasing their cap by over 10% over other teams before playoffs isn't unfair? Why should we be punished for having a healthy team at the TDL? But Vegas can add like 2-3 major pieces off one player getting injured. When the playoffs start, their cap hit will be way higher than ours, but because cap doesn't matter in the playoffs they just have a far superior team now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 26 minutes ago, JeremyCuddles said: I mean, there are ways to fix it. I am no expert but changing how much of a player's cap can be used via LTIR can change. Instead of giving Vegas Stone's entire 9.5mil as free cap give them 50% of it or something. That way they can still afford to call someone up. Yes. This would also effect us with the Poolman cap, but if it means Vegas and Tampa can't keep going into the playoffs with 10+mil more cap spent than everyone else, I think it's fair. Smarter people than me should surely be able to think of a way to balance the playing field. Even Toronto abused it by swapping Timmins to LTIR, conveniently, around TDL time. LTIR is supposed to be so teams can call up players to cover for the injured ones. It shouldn't be used to give teams nearly 10mil in free cap space. Lol. I don't get how you're arguing against changing this. You don't think that teams increasing their cap by over 10% over other teams before playoffs isn't unfair? Why should we be punished for having a healthy team at the TDL? But Vegas can add like 2-3 major pieces off one player getting injured. When the playoffs start, their cap hit will be way higher than ours, but because cap doesn't matter in the playoffs they just have a far superior team now. That has to be negotiated with the PA. Can’t just change the CBA and why would the players want to give it up. LTIR is meant for teams to be able to replace injured players. That can mean call up or signing UFAs or making trades as it should. ‘No cap in the playoffs is where the mistake is made as is accruing cap space. The rule should be the team on the ice fits under 1/82nd of the full cap but that isn’t how it was negotiated. This system is still way better than the Wings, Avs, Leaf’s and Rangers trying to buy the cup every year. Boohoo the Knights can field a $93M team. The job is to beat the team in front of you. They are playing under same rules as we are since the Luongo penalty ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 1 hour ago, DrJockitch said: That has to be negotiated with the PA. Can’t just change the CBA and why would the players want to give it up. LTIR is meant for teams to be able to replace injured players. That can mean call up or signing UFAs or making trades as it should. ‘No cap in the playoffs is where the mistake is made as is accruing cap space. The rule should be the team on the ice fits under 1/82nd of the full cap but that isn’t how it was negotiated. This system is still way better than the Wings, Avs, Leaf’s and Rangers trying to buy the cup every year. Boohoo the Knights can field a $93M team. The job is to beat the team in front of you. They are playing under same rules as we are since the Luongo penalty ended. I just fail to see how front loaded contracts were ruining the league to the point they had to step in but Vegas icing a 98mil dollar team while the rest of us who are healthy are icing 84-88mil dollar teams is fine. Lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Actually this trade made 0 sense. SJS is a full rebuild team. Hertl is their best player. They are supposed to hang on to him and get the best return. The return is a (most likely low) 1st round pick and an ok prospect, and SJS have to give 2x 3rd rounders back. The most outrageous thing is, I don't believe Hertl was ever on the trade market. Which is the most basic thing the SJS GM had to do, put him up for bid. 2nd most outrageous thing is, they are retaining 17% salary for the next 7 years? Logically, makes 0 sense. SJS GM working for Las Vegas, likely. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 15 minutes ago, Drakrami said: Actually this trade made 0 sense. SJS is a full rebuild team. Hertl is their best player. They are supposed to hang on to him and get the best return. The return is a (most likely low) 1st round pick and an ok prospect, and SJS have to give 2x 3rd rounders back. The most outrageous thing is, I don't believe Hertl was ever on the trade market. Which is the most basic thing the SJS GM had to do, put him up for bid. 2nd most outrageous thing is, they are retaining 17% salary for the next 7 years? Logically, makes 0 sense. SJS GM working for Las Vegas, likely. Yup. Retaining 1.3 mil until 2030. Was Hurtl disgruntled or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 The intent of LTIR is to allow a team to replace an injured player by tapping into a reserve cap balance. This intent is nullified in the playoffs. I just can't see why they can't just state that the team must be cap compliant for the team they dress for the game? You can carry a 200m roster for all I care, but the team that dresses and plays should still meet the upper cap limit once the puck drops. And for those that argue players don't get paid in the playoffs and therefore have no cap hit, just remember the cap hit of a contract is determined when it is signed. It's not like it fluctuates annually based on how much salary a player is paid. A LOT of the time players are paid different amounts from year to year (front loaded deals especially). The CAP HIT remains the same. That same cap hit can and should be used in calculating the team's overall cap hit in the playoffs too. Like I said, don't really care if you carry a massive team cap hit in the playoffs. All that matters is the starting lineup should be cap compliant. It's pretty obvious. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wing Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, HKSR said: The intent of LTIR is to allow a team to replace an injured player by tapping into a reserve cap balance. This intent is nullified in the playoffs. I just can't see why they can't just state that the team must be cap compliant for the team they dress for the game? You can carry a 200m roster for all I care, but the team that dresses and plays should still meet the upper cap limit once the puck drops. And for those that argue players don't get paid in the playoffs and therefore have no cap hit, just remember the cap hit of a contract is determined when it is signed. It's not like it fluctuates annually based on how much salary a player is paid. A LOT of the time players are paid different amounts from year to year (front loaded deals especially). The CAP HIT remains the same. That same cap hit can and should be used in calculating the team's overall cap hit in the playoffs too. Like I said, don't really care if you carry a massive team cap hit in the playoffs. All that matters is the starting lineup should be cap compliant. It's pretty obvious. Agree there's a logical way to do this. Vegas can have a roster payroll of 200M if they wish, but the roster they dress in playoffs should be cap compliant. That's fair game to them and everyone else. It's up the NHL to address this. With Vegas blatantly using this loophole again and again, I can't imagine it to not be a topic of discussion in the next CBA negotiation. I'm really hating the argument that Vegas is just playing within rules and their GM is a genius blah blah blah. It's unethical when you start abusing the system to your advantage. If there's a loophole that causes unfairness in the game, you need to address it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 minutes ago, Wing said: Agree there's a logical way to do this. Vegas can have a roster payroll of 200M if they wish, but the roster they dress in playoffs should be cap compliant. That's fair game to them and everyone else. It's up the NHL to address this. With Vegas blatantly using this loophole again and again, I can't imagine it to not be a topic of discussion in the next CBA negotiation. I'm really hating the argument that Vegas is just playing within rules and their GM is a genius blah blah blah. It's unethical when you start abusing the system to your advantage. If there's a loophole that causes unfairness in the game, you need to address it. It is not unethical, it is not abusing the system it is working within the system in the way that best supports your club. That is what sports is both from a management and athletic perspective, turning over every stone (hopefully within the rules as this is) to maximize performance and beat everyone else. It would be mis-management for Vegas not to do this. They are the defending champs and should be all in. It may come up in CBA, it may not. If anything though the bigger issue to me is the unfair advantage the low tax sun belt teams get. They are essentially working with a bigger cap. Vagaries and coincidence of LTIR are one thing, the tax advantage is a bigger structural issue. Our cap is still better than baseball (luxury tax), football and basketball's and allows for more competitive balance than any of the others. No one would be complaining about this if it was us in the Vegas role, other than the other 31 teams fans. I would prefer to see a system where the cap in the playoffs is for players dressed only (no roster limits in playoffs) equal to 1/82nd of the annual cap. It would allow a little more salary in the lineup compared to regular season as the players that are not dressed no longer need to fit under the cap but would avoid these kind of ballooned values. Could also just create injury salary slot exemptions. With a LTIR injury, a player can be added up to $1M (or whatever) value. Kind of how NBA allows their rosters to be filled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 32 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: It is not unethical, it is not abusing the system it is working within the system in the way that best supports your club. That is what sports is both from a management and athletic perspective, turning over every stone (hopefully within the rules as this is) to maximize performance and beat everyone else. It would be mis-management for Vegas not to do this. They are the defending champs and should be all in. It may come up in CBA, it may not. If anything though the bigger issue to me is the unfair advantage the low tax sun belt teams get. They are essentially working with a bigger cap. Vagaries and coincidence of LTIR are one thing, the tax advantage is a bigger structural issue. Our cap is still better than baseball (luxury tax), football and basketball's and allows for more competitive balance than any of the others. No one would be complaining about this if it was us in the Vegas role, other than the other 31 teams fans. I would prefer to see a system where the cap in the playoffs is for players dressed only (no roster limits in playoffs) equal to 1/82nd of the annual cap. It would allow a little more salary in the lineup compared to regular season as the players that are not dressed no longer need to fit under the cap but would avoid these kind of ballooned values. Could also just create injury salary slot exemptions. With a LTIR injury, a player can be added up to $1M (or whatever) value. Kind of how NBA allows their rosters to be filled. Well..... maybe... So where does Canucks being hit by the Luongo rule compare to this? As far as I can see here from the cheap seats, Canucks were twisting the system as much as they could, by finding a loop hole, to their advantage... There was nothing illegal about it, when the contract was signed, but because the league found Canucks to have used a loop hole to an unfair advantage, they hammered them retrospective... I don't see much difference in using the Luongo loophole and the way they use LTIR by using the rules to their advantage... Of course its Bettmans baby doing it, year after year, so.... Edited March 11 by spook007 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 minute ago, spook007 said: Well..... maybe... So where does Canucks being hit by the Luongo rule compare to this? As far as I can see here from the cheap seats, Canucks were twisting the system as much as they could, by finding a loop hole, to their advantage... There were nothing illegal about it, when the contract was signed, but because the league found Canucks to have used a loop hole to an unfair advantage, they hammered them retrospective... I don't see much difference in using the Luongo loophole and the way they use LTIR by using the rules to their advantage... Of course its Bettmans baby doing it, year after year, so.... That’s easy it is completely irrelevant and unrelated. The Luongo rule was scuzzy by the league but the teams were warned ahead of time. It wasn’t something to come out of the blue we were directly told that this would happen if we signed that deal. Now, what the league should have done was reject the contract and accept the law suit to come. We were the only team that tried to flaunt that rule after the league said not to do it. Those back diving contracts with no intent to finish the last years were clearly cap circumvention. They increased the overall spending on contracts in the league. The LTIR rule does not, it increases the theoretical spending of one team while usually reducing the spending of another. It does nothing to the overall salary expenses of the league on players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 48 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: That’s easy it is completely irrelevant and unrelated. The Luongo rule was scuzzy by the league but the teams were warned ahead of time. It wasn’t something to come out of the blue we were directly told that this would happen if we signed that deal. Now, what the league should have done was reject the contract and accept the law suit to come. We were the only team that tried to flaunt that rule after the league said not to do it. Those back diving contracts with no intent to finish the last years were clearly cap circumvention. They increased the overall spending on contracts in the league. The LTIR rule does not, it increases the theoretical spending of one team while usually reducing the spending of another. It does nothing to the overall salary expenses of the league on players. With all due respect... to tell somebody its legal (by signing it off) and at the same time warning them, suggests that we accepts some teams do funny business, circumventing rules to their advantages, and other teams we'll nail... In the end its about somebody getting an unfair advantage... whether its by league overspending or by increasing (theoretical) spending of one team, regardless of it reducing spending by another... its getting an unfair advantage. If this carries on, you'll teams in general dropping a few players (Canucks with their lead could have done so with Soucy etc...) and then load up for the play offs... Team with lots on money will easily that, other teams less so... I don't see any difference... I understand, why the rule exists, but its being used in a way, I doubt, the league was intending it to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 36 minutes ago, spook007 said: With all due respect... to tell somebody its legal (by signing it off) and at the same time warning them, suggests that we accepts some teams do funny business, circumventing rules to their advantages, and other teams we'll nail... In the end its about somebody getting an unfair advantage... whether its by league overspending or by increasing (theoretical) spending of one team, regardless of it reducing spending by another... its getting an unfair advantage. If this carries on, you'll teams in general dropping a few players (Canucks with their lead could have done so with Soucy etc...) and then load up for the play offs... Team with lots on money will easily that, other teams less so... I don't see any difference... I understand, why the rule exists, but its being used in a way, I doubt, the league was intending it to be used. I agree it is not the way the league intended in which case they should have done a better job in the writing of the CBA. I don’t see it as an unfair advantage, just a team maximizing what they can do based on the CBA as any team should and can. You also seem to be believing the conspiracy fallacy that this was just something made up. It is a legitimate injury. Soucy can’t just be dropped whatever that means. Doctors need to sign off on it. I do wish the league would implement an independent LTIR review for all players going on LTIR. Stone has a lacerated spleen (that is an hard thing to fake) and it is not guaranteed that he will be back for the playoffs. bunch of hand wringing doomsayers over here. Edited March 11 by DrJockitch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneakystink Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 23 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: I agree it is not the way the league intended in which case they should have done a better job in the writing of the CBA. I don’t see it as an unfair advantage, just a team maximizing what they can do based on the CBA as any team should and can. You also seem to be believing the conspiracy fallacy that this was just something made up. It is a legitimate injury. Soucy can’t just be dropped whatever that means. Doctors need to sign off on it. I do wish the league would implement an independent LTIR review for all players going on LTIR. Stone has a lacerated spleen (that is an hard thing to fake) and it is not guaranteed that he will be back for the playoffs. bunch of hand wringing doomsayers over here. Maybe in a case like this the league should have its own doctors examine him. Crazy odds to have injuries around the same time and come back the same time 3 years in a row. All I'm saying... Edited March 11 by Sneakystink 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz-Pix Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Perhaps they should look at changing the TDL to after the all star break. It's a lot harder to hide players on LTIR for 2 and half - 3 months than it is for 5-6 weeks. It's also a lot harder for a player to be in playoff game shape when they come back for Game 1. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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