[PGT] Jets at Canucks

[AnthonyG]

39 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

There’s a lot more required to succeed  than putting a solid cord together. Without the right mix of supporting players, team moral, chemistry, positive encouragement and coaching staff a solid core is useless. 
 

In seven years Benning was unable to finish the job he started by failing to support the core in many ways. 
 

JR and AP have accomplished more here to create a winning team in 20 months than JB did in 7 years. I’d hardly call their work tossing a few sprinkles. What they have done is just as important or more so as to what JB did. 
 

Anyone can bake a cake. Few can take it to the winning level. 

 

 

The hardest part of building a contender is building the core. Without one of Pettersson, Miller, Hughes and Demko this team falls drastically short of a contender. Identifying supporting cast players and also having assets to move makes it a lot easier to fine tune a core into contender. Rutherford took 14 years to win his first cup as a builder. His 2 cups in PIT he had very little impact on those winning rosters as they were largely all already had in PITs system prior to his arrival.

ive given tons of credit to PA early on in this season on his work in the bottom 6, getting a proper backup and shaping the blueline. But to say this team was built by current management and completely dismissing the arteries of this team that came from Benning is just such a disgusting bias view because all these “fans” refuse to accept the fact JB was instrumental in constructing this team. His core and his secondary players are still driving this team.

[AnthonyG]

32 minutes ago, Hogs and Podz said:

"Prick"

Lmfao

Lol someones upset

[RWMc1]

47 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

if we win the cup....every poster on the forum should post an inappropriate pic of themselves doing just that.

 

Ribs would love it.

Naked with a Gwar codpiece.

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Benning gets credit for Hughes and Miller. He was forced to pick Petey and and Demko was the scouts. Then Benning went about messing up the cap and not being able to build out the roster as a result. New management builds around the existing core in a year and a half and makes one of the top clubs in the league. 
Benning was (still is) a moran. 

Benning LISTENED to his scouts and iirc HE changed the scouting department after 2014. Demko was his pick. He put the whole scouting departments eyes on Pettersson. Petey was ranked as low as 17th to jump 12 spots is a huge risk. Also can you confirm you were there when Benning refused?? Because to me it seems like he took one persons word, and then asked for a unanimous decision by sending his top guys to watch. the proper approach to take and ultimately just you love to say “Gillis was the GM of the most successful Canucks team ever” yet he did next to fuck all to build that team. Jim Benning’s name is attached to Elias Pettersson’s draft record. Same as Hoglander, also Garland is the difference maker on the 3rd line, Myers has been outstanding. Also UMM BROCK BOESER??? How the hell can you dismiss the amount of talent he has supplied this organization? He wasnt forced to pick ANYONE. He can pick what he feels this team needs. He  worked with the old regime’s scouting department and after 2014 he changed that and the results showed.

 

 

you still fail to realize how good this team has been the last 4 years. Injuries and underperforming star players is what held us back. Pettersons 24 pointless games in a 40 game span. Demkos first 25 games last year and then Spencer let it all in Martin. COVID and Pettersson missing 30 games. This team has gone through a lot of shit the last few seasons but the winning pieces have always been there. I have fought you and so many others on keeping your chin up because this team was so fucking close to contending and I was right the whole fucking time.

 

Messing up the cap??? Dude are you serious?? COVID fucked the cap. Drop the bullshit cap complaints. He got stiffed with a fuckin cap recapture into an immediate cap freeze after adding at the TDL and his few touches at the start of the 19-20 season took us from a bottom team to a playoff team. His worst contracts have had ZERO impact on us contending. 

[The Duke]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Is that a winning core? Is that list the building blocks of a contender? Zero credit to JB for putting the best core this organization has ever seen. Instead the guy who tossed a few sprinkles on the cake gets all the credit just as Gillass did.

I think the current management have been fabulous - and much better with the details than JB, while maintaining strong drafting.  
 

But yeah, the main work was already done.  And JR/Allvin would have had to agree with that when they accepted the jobs since there has been zero movement towards a rebuild. 
 

Their biggest moves have been bringing in Tocchet, building the defense and filling out a roster that all aren’t afraid to play two-way “Tocchet hockey.”  I think their moves go beyond the individual in-and-out player decisions as they’ve really created a cohesive roster top to bottom. 
 

Much more contentious, I still think JB/Wisebrod did a better job of bringing in talent than the team’s success indicated.  So many players brought in, only to sputter, be traded out, and do well again elsewhere.  Chemistry, coaching and the maturity of the core are making a lot of difference here vs how the team looked 2-3 years ago. 

Edited March 11 by The Duke

[AnthonyG]

7 minutes ago, The Duke said:

I think the current management have been fabulous - and much better with the details than JB, while maintaining strong drafting.  
 

But yeah, the main work was already done.  And JR/Allvin would have had to agree with that when they accepted the jobs since there has been zero movement towards a rebuild. 
 

Their biggest moves have been bringing in Tocchet, building the defense and filling out a roster that all aren’t afraid to play two-way “Tocchet hockey.”  I think their moves go beyond the individual in-and-out player decisions as they’ve really created a cohesive roster top to bottom. 
 

Much more contentious, I still think JB/Wisebrod did a better job of bringing in talent than the team’s success indicated.  So many players brought in, only to sputter, be traded out, and do well again elsewhere.  Chemistry, coaching and the maturity of the core are making a lot of difference here vs how the team looked 2-3 years ago. 

I’ve given lots of praise to the work PA and JR have done. There have been some mistakes that I do fear how it could impact us in a few years. If Lindholm doesnt re-sign, thats a pretty big mistake not seeking a sign and trade especially when they were seeking a long term solution. How Kuzmenko was handled and plummeting his stocks and selling at rock bottom. And how we went about buying out a top 4D whos buyout penalty is going to hurt us in a couple seasons as we are in a window of contention, 4million dollars is a costly mistake when you are contending. Taking a 2C to trade to get a top 4D then to trade a boat load to get a 2C replacement…. There were so many other ways of handling this that would have avoided a buy penalty and not have to go out shopping for a 2C.

 

It takes a team to win, for fans on here to just ignore or dismiss Benning’s work is so childish and pathetic.

 

[Barnstorm]

28 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

The hardest part of building a contender is building the core. Without one of Pettersson, Miller, Hughes and Demko this team falls drastically short of a contender. Identifying supporting cast players and also having assets to move makes it a lot easier to fine tune a core into contender. Rutherford took 14 years to win his first cup as a builder. His 2 cups in PIT he had very little impact on those winning rosters as they were largely all already had in PITs system prior to his arrival.

ive given tons of credit to PA early on in this season on his work in the bottom 6, getting a proper backup and shaping the blueline. But to say this team was built by current management and completely dismissing the arteries of this team that came from Benning is just such a disgusting bias view because all these “fans” refuse to accept the fact JB was instrumental in constructing this team. His core and his secondary players are still driving this team.

I’m not dismissing JB’s work at all. I’m suggesting there’s more to the picture than what he managed to do and AP has stepped in and possibly  finished the puzzle in short order. 
 

Comparing timelines in various franchises is not a good bench mark. 

The circumstances are different everywhere. After 7 Benning years the team was floundering despite his successes. 

 

I agree Benning did some good work however he made some huge blunders  that the team Is still recovering from. I don’t believe PA has or will make similar mistakes. 
 

Can you cite an example of someone completely dismissing JB’s accomplishments?

[GrammaInTheTub]

This management group has always been transparent in their confidence in our core while acknowledging that certain historical contracts inherited were a problem. They have gone so far as to publicly say yeah there is one or two more we’d like to be rid of. They inherited a great core and some problems, but have produced excellent results that put our team where it is today. 

[The Duke]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I’ve given lots of praise to the work PA and JR have done. There have been some mistakes that I do fear how it could impact us in a few years. If Lindholm doesnt re-sign, thats a pretty big mistake not seeking a sign and trade especially when they were seeking a long term solution. How Kuzmenko was handled and plummeting his stocks and selling at rock bottom. And how we went about buying out a top 4D whos buyout penalty is going to hurt us in a couple seasons as we are in a window of contention, 4million dollars is a costly mistake when you are contending. Taking a 2C to trade to get a top 4D then to trade a boat load to get a 2C replacement…. There were so many other ways of handling this that would have avoided a buy penalty and not have to go out shopping for a 2C.

 

It takes a team to win, for fans on here to just ignore or dismiss Benning’s work is so childish and pathetic.

 

I agree - the narrative in Vancouver has always been dictated by the team’s record.  
 

Even Benning’s loudest detractors and “proper rebuild” cheerleaders shut up during the bubble run.  Of course, he made a few (pretty big) mistakes that offseason and wasn’t able to build on that momentum. 
 

Allvin / JR haven’t been perfect by any stretch but the team is winning.. so while people might complain about Mikheyev, there’s no criticism towards Allvin.  Same with signing Kuzmenko only to sell for pennies vs what he would have returned at the deadline last year on that super cheap contract.  They also threw a lot of assets moving on from some players who have gone on to find success in other orgs.  Most of all? No one is whining about a rebuild - and that seemed to be the *biggest* complaint for years and it never happened.
 

Gillis got the same pass with some bum moves down the stretch as well.  But that’s just how it goes. 

Edited March 11 by The Duke

[Moeknows]

28 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Benning LISTENED to his scouts and iirc HE changed the scouting department after 2014. Demko was his pick. He put the whole scouting departments eyes on Pettersson. Petey was ranked as low as 17th to jump 12 spots is a huge risk. Also can you confirm you were there when Benning refused?? Because to me it seems like he took one persons word, and then asked for a unanimous decision by sending his top guys to watch. the proper approach to take and ultimately just you love to say “Gillis was the GM of the most successful Canucks team ever” yet he did next to fuck all to build that team. Jim Benning’s name is attached to Elias Pettersson’s draft record. Same as Hoglander, also Garland is the difference maker on the 3rd line, Myers has been outstanding. Also UMM BROCK BOESER??? How the hell can you dismiss the amount of talent he has supplied this organization? He wasnt forced to pick ANYONE. He can pick what he feels this team needs. He  worked with the old regime’s scouting department and after 2014 he changed that and the results showed.

 

 

you still fail to realize how good this team has been the last 4 years. Injuries and underperforming star players is what held us back. Pettersons 24 pointless games in a 40 game span. Demkos first 25 games last year and then Spencer let it all in Martin. COVID and Pettersson missing 30 games. This team has gone through a lot of shit the last few seasons but the winning pieces have always been there. I have fought you and so many others on keeping your chin up because this team was so fucking close to contending and I was right the whole fucking time.

 

Messing up the cap??? Dude are you serious?? COVID fucked the cap. Drop the bullshit cap complaints. He got stiffed with a fuckin cap recapture into an immediate cap freeze after adding at the TDL and his few touches at the start of the 19-20 season took us from a bottom team to a playoff team. His worst contracts have had ZERO impact on us contending. 

He took Petey caused he was talked into it. Contracts, Erikkson, OEL (which handcuffed current Mgt). Suter, Beagle, Roussel. Drafting Juolevi. The Gulbranson trade. Letting Tanev, Markstrom and Toffoli walk for no return. Yes he made some good moves but the bad far outwieghs the good IMO.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, The Duke said:

I agree - the narrative in Vancouver has always been dictated by the team’s record.  
 

Even Benning’s loudest detractors and “proper rebuild” cheerleaders shut up during the bubble run.  Of course, he made a few (pretty big) mistakes that offseason and wasn’t able to build on that momentum. 
 

Allvin / JR haven’t been perfect by any stretch but the team is winning.. so while people might complain about Mikheyev, there’s no criticism towards Allvin.  Same with signing Kuzmenko only to sell for pennies vs what he would have returned at the deadline last year on that super cheap contract.  They also threw a lot of assets moving on from some players who have gone on to find success in other orgs.  Most of all? No one is whining about a rebuild - and that seemed to be the *biggest* complaint for years and it never happened.
 

Gillis got the same pass with some bum moves down the stretch as well.  But that’s just how it goes. 

Team was going clearly in the wrong direction before the season ended prematurely due to the pandemic.  They benefited from that.  Vezina type goaltending in the post-season (credit to Benning for drafting Demko who was largely responsible for that) let them give a HUGE scare to Vegas (who lacked the ability to 'put away' a team).  It ended up costing Vegas in the Finals.  This current team doesn't rely mainly on Vezina goaltending for its wins (imho).

Edited March 11 by NewbieCanuckFan

[The Duke]

3 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Team was going clearly in the wrong direction before the season ended prematurely due to the pandemic.  They benefited from that.  Vezina type goaltending in the post-season (credit to Benning for drafting Demko who was largely responsible for that) let them give a HUGE scare to Vegas (who lacked the ability to 'put away' a team).  It ended up costing Vegas in the Finals.  This current team doesn't rely mainly on Vezina goaltending for its wins (imho).

For sure, this is a much more complete team.  (And that group wasn’t half bad - on top of Hughes, Petey and Boeser we still had Horvat, Edler, Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, Sutter, etc)
 

But the bubble showed those core guys could bring it in a playoff series (albeit no crowd and stuff) it’s a big reason why I’m excited for playoffs this year! 

[AnthonyG]

24 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

I’m not dismissing JB’s work at all. I’m suggesting there’s more to the picture than what he managed to do and AP has stepped in and possibly  finished the puzzle in short order. 
 

Comparing timelines in various franchises is not a good bench mark. 

The circumstances are different everywhere. After 7 Benning years the team was floundering despite his successes. 

 

I agree Benning did some good work however he made some huge blunders  that the team Is still recovering from. I don’t believe PA has or will make similar mistakes. 
 

Can you cite an example of someone completely dismissing JB’s accomplishments?

Its the posters on here who just endlessly bash Benning. 
 

Bennings “blunders” were in rebuilding years for large majority of it. The OEL and Garland trade? Are we really suffering? We came out of it with Garland who is a massive piece in the bottom 6. Or will we begin to suffer when that buyout kicks in during our window to win…. Whats more costly, Loui Erikssons 6 mil during rebuilding years, or OELs buyout or Mikheyevs contract in contending years?

JT and OEL trade combined is a win. At the price we paid for OEL is made up for in what it cost us for what we have in Miller.

 

Bennings worst contracts

Eriksson - moot point as it wasnt holding us back from contending

Beagle, Holtby and Roussel - brought in to help play a role in development at the NHL level, just as Schenn and Holtby were. He targeted guys with cup winning experience or experienced vets to help mould the youth at the NHL level. This is why these types of players were given intermediate deals. He brought in cup experience in every area. This gets way overlooked and seen as “shit contracts” when really we paid for their experience, not their play.

What Benning accomplished in 7 years, with nothing to start with is remarkable, especially when you look at the large body or work being done in under 5 years. How many other FULL rebuilds have accomplished this much that fast? We still see a lot of the same teams still struggling year after year. Buffalo, New Jersey, Arizona etc. if you look at teams without generational talent, as to how long it took to build contenders it took a minimum of 8 years and thats also including teams WITH generational talent, to either win a cup or be a contender. Bennings did this without a 1st overall let alone a top 3 pick and no assets to move to accelerate the process.

 

 

 

 

[Snoop Hogg]

There’s no doubt that Super Genius Patrik Allvin is a far superior GM to Braindead Jim Benning. 

[Lemon Face]

23 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I’ve given lots of praise to the work PA and JR have done. There have been some mistakes that I do fear how it could impact us in a few years. If Lindholm doesnt re-sign, thats a pretty big mistake not seeking a sign and trade especially when they were seeking a long term solution. How Kuzmenko was handled and plummeting his stocks and selling at rock bottom. And how we went about buying out a top 4D whos buyout penalty is going to hurt us in a couple seasons as we are in a window of contention, 4million dollars is a costly mistake when you are contending. Taking a 2C to trade to get a top 4D then to trade a boat load to get a 2C replacement…. There were so many other ways of handling this that would have avoided a buy penalty and not have to go out shopping for a 2C.

 

It takes a team to win, for fans on here to just ignore or dismiss Benning’s work is so childish and pathetic.

 

You looks like perfect GM for this team.You see everything we dont,it is magic.How Aqua man missed such diamond in the rough it is beyond my imagination.I hope some other teams recognize your talent and give you opportunity to led them to promise land. Interest me how would you criticize yours beautiful self ,if given chance to be GM

[Captkirk888]

5 hours ago, Ballisticsports said:

I never had the ACL injury, I did tear my MCL and it hurt over a year even JUST walking

I strained my MCL and it took 4-5 months before it felt right again. I was in my early 40s at the time tho…

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 minutes ago, The Duke said:

For sure, this is a much more complete team.  (And that group wasn’t half bad - on top of Hughes, Petey and Boeser we still had Horvat, Edler, Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, Sutter, etc)
 

But the bubble showed those core guys could bring it in a playoff series (albeit no crowd and stuff) it’s a big reason why I’m excited for playoffs this year! 

I pity actually the other team that faces us in the post-season when we have all cylinders going.

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

10 minutes ago, Snoop Hogg said:

There’s no doubt that Super Genius Patrik Allvin is a far superior GM to Braindead Jim Benning. 

Kind of helps Alvin has Master Yoda as a "consultant" (JR).  Jim Benning had John freaking Weisbrod for immediate help.  No fair comparison.

[Attila Umbrus]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

 You have such a good understanding of “building” a contender.

Mikheyev - lol

Hronek

Lafferty

Joshua

Ljndholm

DeSmith

Aman

Zadorov

Soucy

 

“Built”
 

Lmfao 

We def gotta give Benning and Co the credit that is deserved drafting the group of guys we have.

 

But he also failed pretty miserably to support this young group with good veteran leadership. 
 

The list above is a great supporting cast of players that have helped this club do a complete 180 turn around. That’s not something to sneeze at.

 

Do we need to bring up Bennings list of guys he tried to bring in to make our club competitive? He dished out some bad contracts to a lot of vets, which never supported this cast of young guys like current management have.

 

Benning played his role, just like Nonis before him.

 

Both him and Nonis could not get past the “building” stage however. It took Gillis and now Allvin to push past and get to the next stage.

 

It happens all the time, things stall and get stagnant. You can call it luck but you gotta be good to be lucky. Both Gillis and Allvin took what gifts were given and pushed the needle further than their previous successors had. Can’t hate on them for that. It just is what it is.

 

I think you’re a bit too caught up on our lack of trade deadline movement in my opinion. There is a lot to be excited about. These are good times my friend. We should all be happy with things right now. 
 

I appreciate your passion and insight, but you are acting like you know everything and everyone else knows nothing. Why are you so confrontational? There is no reason to act like this with all your fellow canuck fans. I’ve seen lots of good takes and posts from you. But last couple weeks you’ve been very agitated and confrontational. We’re all just trying to share a conversation with you. 
 

Anyways, all the best. Lets enjoy this run we’re on. Hope you agree.

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, CanuckMan said:

Is 32 points what’s expected from a 2nd line player? Because he’s never scored more than that so not sure what’s meant by him usually scoring at a second line rate. Usually when you think 1st line players you’re thinking players close to a point per game or PPG or more. Second line players are usually in the 50-60 point range. His production has always been a third line players. 25-30 points

 

Mikheyev had 21 goals and 32 points in only 53 games.  That was a pace for 32 goals and 50 points.  A 32 goal pace is definitely top 6 material...

[Moeknows]

10 minutes ago, Lemon Face said:

You looks like perfect GM for this team.You see everything we dont,it is magic.How Aqua man missed such diamond in the rough it is beyond my imagination.I hope some other teams recognize your talent and give you opportunity to led them to promise land. Interest me how would you criticize yours beautiful self ,if given chance to be GM

WOW!!! Either 12 or ESL

[CanuckDownUnder]

8 minutes ago, Captkirk888 said:

I strained my MCL and it took 4-5 months before it felt right again. I was in my early 40s at the time tho…

 

Sounds familiar. I wear a brace now just in case as re-injury would cause more damage than the first time apparently.

[Captkirk888]

1 hour ago, Moeknows said:

MorOn,  MorOn, MorOn. We talked about this remember LOL

He’s doing that on purpose now….

[KFAN]

2 hours ago, Barnstorm said:

There’s a lot more required to succeed  than putting a solid cord together. Without the right mix of supporting players, team moral, chemistry, positive encouragement and coaching staff a solid core is useless. 
 

In seven years Benning was unable to finish the job he started by failing to support the core in many ways. 
 

JR and AP have accomplished more here to create a winning team in 20 months than JB did in 7 years. I’d hardly call their work tossing a few sprinkles. What they have done is just as important or more so as to what JB did. 
 

Anyone can bake a cake. Few can take it to the winning level. 

 

 

And it's not just what they've done with players. Getting Tocchet and letting him choose his team are huge, as is the acquiring of good, collaborative decision makers in the management team.

[Barnstorm]

14 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Its the posters on here who just endlessly bash Benning. 
 

Bennings “blunders” were in rebuilding years for large majority of it. The OEL and Garland trade? Are we really suffering? We came out of it with Garland who is a massive piece in the bottom 6. Or will we begin to suffer when that buyout kicks in during our window to win…. Whats more costly, Loui Erikssons 6 mil during rebuilding years, or OELs buyout or Mikheyevs contract in contending years?

JT and OEL trade combined is a win. At the price we paid for OEL is made up for in what it cost us for what we have in Miller.

 

Bennings worst contracts

Eriksson - moot point as it wasnt holding us back from contending

Beagle, Holtby and Roussel - brought in to help play a role in development at the NHL level, just as Schenn and Holtby were. He targeted guys with cup winning experience or experienced vets to help mould the youth at the NHL level. This is why these types of players were given intermediate deals. He brought in cup experience in every area. This gets way overlooked and seen as “shit contracts” when really we paid for their experience, not their play.

What Benning accomplished in 7 years, with nothing to start with is remarkable, especially when you look at the large body or work being done in under 5 years. How many other FULL rebuilds have accomplished this much that fast? We still see a lot of the same teams still struggling year after year. Buffalo, New Jersey, Arizona etc. if you look at teams without generational talent, as to how long it took to build contenders it took a minimum of 8 years and thats also including teams WITH generational talent, to either win a cup or be a contender. Bennings did this without a 1st overall let alone a top 3 pick and no assets to move to accelerate the process.

 

 

 

 

VGK won it all in 6 years. Previous to that they were highly competitive including divisional and conference wins.
 

Hard to blame people for bashing Benning. This fanbase is dedicated and has been success  starved for  so long. It wouldn’t matter who was running the show at that time. High hopes for young stars without support will bring criticism. 
 

The new management has said they inherited some difficult situations hindering progress. I accept their judgement that both good and bad came from the previous group. 
 

Lastly, I believe Jim Benning was not going to get us over the hump no matter how much time he was given. The players were completely flummoxed by the coaching changes and inadequacies, personnel upheavals and money poorly spent. The players aren’t naive. They know when things aren’t right and their play reflects it. 

 

When you work under mediocre management you deliver mediocre results. That’s why so many teams struggle year in and year out for decades. Good management is uncommon, mediocre is everywhere. 
 

Our new management gained valuable experience and skills while in Pa. As a result they are moving towards the cup quicker than most or would typically be expected. 
 

Bottom line , there was no hope, now there is.