spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 3 hours ago, Devron said: Guess it would depend on trade clauses, buyouts etc but ideally 5.25. It’s like Myers. I’m like the deal is ok but wtf is there a NMC for a 34 year old Does anyone know, what Zad wanted? has it been rumoured or anything? I also wanted him to stay, but I don't want us to be out of the FA players, just because we don't know a number on Zad... The 'we ran out of time' still ring in the ears... If anything this management group has done very little wrong... so lets see, what their plan is next... We've been soft for like the last 15-20 years, so the culture change was great... hopefully we are not back to being lambs to the slaughter, with QH and Petey to fend for themselves again... Monday can't come soon enough, as this is tearing fans apart... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck You Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Kinda seems like PA and JR already put their foot down, I would be shocked if Z gets what he wants here...PA seems like a no none sense type of guy that moves on quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 21 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: There is nothing in this managements history that shows they’re in panic territory. Benning’s been gone a while now 2nd season? this management group has been together . Their history with us is short , Possibly stable elsewhere. But I think Sid Malkin Fluery and many others may have helped with the panic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 24 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Can’t believe that has to be argued. Imagine a player could negotiate a contract based on 13 games. Its funny you say that but when its one of our players I hear on here repeatedly that so and so player has played himself into a better contract. I constantly heard it about Petey where he was regularly compared to McDavid and other top forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Duke Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 minutes ago, greenbean30 said: So you would gladly pay whatever a player feels they are worth? So we should sign Lindholm at $8m and Zadorov at $6m? We tried to sign Lindholm and Zadorov, they feel they are worth more than we are offering, and they were both offered fair value. $7m and $5m offered, they think they're worth more than that, you don't just bend to whatever a player is wanting. We didn't wait to offer these players these contracts until after Myers was signed, the negotiations have been on going and couldn't be agreed upon. Yep. Offers were put out to Lindholm and Zadorov fairly early on. Sounds like Lindholm had reasons beyond money for wanting out (top 6 opportunities) and Zadorov was reportedly offered a very fair 5 mil AAV and didn’t accept. Playing with the cap / available players it’s pretty obvious every penny counts. But you also still need to field a team. Myers at 3 gives you a very good 18 minute a night pairing with Soucy for 6.25 mil. It’s also easier to fill that 3rd LD (Zadorov) spot for cheaper. Dillon, Cole, Edmundson, Forbort are all bigger, rugged LD likely to sign for significantly less. Even a guy like Martinez is an intriguing option, though might be pricier. Going cheaper opens up the opportunity to land another RD like Roy, Pesce, Walker or Carrier IF management only wants to add one top 6 “B” winger. Without even considering trades there’s a ton of interesting options out there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) 49 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Jason King was an elite prospect for 20 games once. 13 games is too small of a sample size to bend over for a 5th dman especially when the rest of the season shows there are some warts to his game too. lol , your comparing Jeff Cowan and Jason King to Nikita Zadorov!! LMFAO !!! That’s like playing NAKED TWISTER with 5 gallons of Mazola Oil. !! Edited June 30 by SilentSam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 8 minutes ago, The Duke said: Yep. Offers were put out to Lindholm and Zadorov fairly early on. Sounds like Lindholm had reasons beyond money for wanting out (top 6 opportunities) and Zadorov was reportedly offered a very fair 5 mil AAV and didn’t accept. Playing with the cap / available players it’s pretty obvious every penny counts. But you also still need to field a team. Myers at 3 gives you a very good 18 minute a night pairing with Soucy for 6.25 mil. It’s also easier to fill that 3rd LD (Zadorov) spot for cheaper. Dillon, Cole, Edmundson, Forbort are all bigger, rugged LD likely to sign for significantly less. Even a guy like Martinez is an intriguing option, though might be pricier. Going cheaper opens up the opportunity to land another RD like Roy, Pesce, Walker or Carrier IF management only wants to add one top 6 “B” winger. Without even considering trades there’s a ton of interesting options out there. Martinez has been declining for years and is soft as butter, no thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 12 minutes ago, spook007 said: Does anyone know, what Zad wanted? has it been rumoured or anything? I also wanted him to stay, but I don't want us to be out of the FA players, just because we don't know a number on Zad... The 'we ran out of time' still ring in the ears... If anything this management group has done very little wrong... so lets see, what their plan is next... We've been soft for like the last 15-20 years, so the culture change was great... hopefully we are not back to being lambs to the slaughter, with QH and Petey to fend for themselves again... Monday can't come soon enough, as this is tearing fans apart... Yeah for me Allvin had 2 jobs Hronek and Z. I felt the rest could be replaced. That’s what bothers me. i don’t even know or care much about what Z wanted, I just cared about the result. Seems he’s gone now. I hope things come together. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post greenbean30 Posted June 30 Popular Post Share Posted June 30 Just now, Devron said: Yeah for me Allvin had 2 jobs Hronek and Z. I felt the rest could be replaced. That’s what bothers me. i don’t even know or care much about what Z wanted, I just cared about the result. Seems he’s gone now. I hope things come together. But that's just emotions talking because you liked the guy as a personality and player. Allvin has to care what players are asking for and there has to be a limit what we will pay players. There is a cap to worry about, and overpaying just because he is a fan favourite isn't a smart move. I liked Zad too, and would love him back here. But my personal figure was around $5m for 5 years, 6 max. If Zads thinks he's worth more than that, then I'm happy he's not coming back because we have other places that extra cap needs to go towards. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Just now, greenbean30 said: But that's just emotions talking because you liked the guy as a personality and player. Allvin has to care what players are asking for and there has to be a limit what we will pay players. There is a cap to worry about, and overpaying just because he is a fan favourite isn't a smart move. I liked Zad too, and would love him back here. But my personal figure was around $5m for 5 years, 6 max. If Zads thinks he's worth more than that, then I'm happy he's not coming back because we have other places that extra cap needs to go towards. More than emotion. It was also a recoup of the assets we spent. I’m still a believer in younger players to fit the core. And I don’t think management is robotic either, Myers was an emotional signing to them 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Devron said: Yeah for me Allvin had 2 jobs Hronek and Z. I felt the rest could be replaced. That’s what bothers me. i don’t even know or care much about what Z wanted, I just cared about the result. Seems he’s gone now. I hope things come together. I know... The hard part is not Zad... its what he represented... It was Canucks no longer having to rely on help from the refs, and crying because the calls didn't go our way... It was being able to stand up to the big bad Bruins of the world instead of turning the other cheek... Not sure what to expect.... as I said Monday can't come soon enough, as the suspense is killing me, but if our bottom pairing is going to be filled from within, then we are back to being 'soft' Canucks again... Mangement may have a an ace or two up their sleeve, as tocchet hockey needs some muscle and hard-nosed players... Edited June 30 by spook007 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 hours ago, Lemon Face said: Our offer was 5 mill.Lets see how much he will get on Monday And where.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Face Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Just now, spook007 said: And where.... yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegr Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 5 minutes ago, spook007 said: I know... The hard part is not Zad... its what he represented... It was Canucks no longer having to rely on help from the refs, and crying because the calls didn't go our way... It was being able to stand up to the big bad Bruins of the world instead of turning the other cheek... Not sure what to expect.... as I said Monday can't come soon enough, as the suspense is killing me, but if our bottom pairing is going to be filled from within, then we are back to being 'soft' Canucks again... Mangement may have a an ace or two up their sleeve, as tocchet hockey needs some muscle and hard-nosed players... I’d agree with this. At this moment, which Canuck is the best in fights? Someone will need to be able to protect our stars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 hours ago, EdgarM said: Kuzmenko w/ Petey - 43 games 21 points w/out Petey - 29 games 25 points Kuzmenko 1st season 81 games - 74 points Kuzmenko 2nd season 43 games - 21 points.... Both w Petey? Maybe wait and see, what his output will be next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 minutes ago, Slegr said: I’d agree with this. At this moment, which Canuck is the best in fights? Someone will need to be able to protect our stars. Atm it's probably Joshua or Miller.... But you don't really want Miller having to drop the gloves constantly... We definitely need more truculence in the line up... they don't need to be knuckle draggers only, but somebody who'll drop them if needed... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 3 minutes ago, spook007 said: Atm it's probably Joshua or Miller.... But you don't really want Miller having to drop the gloves constantly... We definitely need more truculence in the line up... they don't need to be knuckle draggers only, but somebody who'll drop them if needed... With no one to back them up, those two aren't going to do anything, that would be suicide. We won't even be able to respond with a few big hits. That guy cost too much, apparently. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 1 minute ago, EdgarM said: With no one to back them up, those two aren't going to do anything, that would be suicide. We won't even be able to respond with a few big hits. That guy cost too much, apparently. Well they did it before Zad came... Miller was never scared of dropping them... Zad wasn't that good a fighter. His force was hammering players into the boards at will... The few time I saw him fight, I wasn't that impressed 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck You Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 18 minutes ago, Slegr said: I’d agree with this. At this moment, which Canuck is the best in fights? Someone will need to be able to protect our stars. Garland. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 3 minutes ago, spook007 said: Well they did it before Zad came... Miller was never scared of dropping them... Zad wasn't that good a fighter. His force was hammering players into the boards at will... The few time I saw him fight, I wasn't that impressed The team toughness usually grows as tougher players are inserted into the line up. I would expect the opposite if you substract said players. I am pretty sure no opposing players looked forward to getting hit by Zadorov. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Just now, EdgarM said: The team toughness usually grows as tougher players are inserted into the line up. I would expect the opposite if you substract said players. I am pretty sure no opposing players looked forward to getting hit by Zadorov. Absolutely agree... It was just that Miller was dropping them prior to Zad coming here... Not getting Zad in the line up leaves a hole...a massive one... Time will tell how or if they will address this... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 hours ago, Rick_theRyper said: A lot picks gone for a team that may have made the playoffs either way. I don't think Lindholm got us into the playoffs, he played well against Nash. And Zadorov got going beautifully in both rounds. He was the keeper he always was. I'd rather have traded for Toffoli and resigned him than Lindholm and would have been cheaper. Big mistake hope they give him one more offer dig deep. He's right there with Miller, Hughes and Garland with dragging people into battle. Lindholm took a bit of time to get settled, but he was great during the play offs... 10 points in 13 games... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 27 minutes ago, greenbean30 said: So you would gladly pay whatever a player feels they are worth? So we should sign Lindholm at $8m and Zadorov at $6m? We tried to sign Lindholm and Zadorov, they feel they are worth more than we are offering, and they were both offered fair value. $7m and $5m offered, they think they're worth more than that, you don't just bend to whatever a player is wanting. We didn't wait to offer these players these contracts until after Myers was signed, the negotiations have been on going and couldn't be agreed upon. No Not necessarily. First , I think Management is offering lower than fair value. Lets keep in mind that the numbers we see here are speculative. (Lets use a 5x5 as a contract as an example.) Management has been telling players that they could re-sign : “We want players that want to be here in Vancouver” “We want players who want to be part of our Culture”.. I personally think those words harbour the inclination that if you don’t except our offer, you sir are not a team player and we / you should look elsewhere. Its a “posture” . Fair VALUE of a player in this “Capped Sport “ should actually rise every year , to the same amount the Cap rises. The same we all wish we shared Cost of Living clauses in our work to offset and hold fair value to our wages. So a player like Zadorov has to look at that same scenario, Let’s say Zadorov is offered a 5m x 5 years. The 5th year of the contract may not truly reflect the market or how the Cap has risen. It a tug of war .. because a manager’s argument can be made that a player will depreciate rather than appreciate in value. as with Zadorov’s last contract of 3.75 , he’s definitely played better than that in his short tenure here.. a managers dream if that lasted 1 , 2 , or 3 more years.… and a rip off for Zadorov . arguably a top 4 placement, easily on this team, talked to be elsewhere by the attention he has gained. And another reason to seek THAT opportunity. To me , a hypothetical deal at 5 x 5 is low on this player .. someone else can run the numbers to see what the cap MAY rise to , but to compensate fairly for an unknown cap rise over 5 years is a bit of a crap shoot . But if that contract was a bit higher, With more term, I think he would stay here , and by that I also think he would have signed for less here. Less than the offers he is about to receive. But sometimes posturing helps nobody.. Moreso timing is critical. jus my thoughts. 5.5 x 6 would have kept him. If your worried about a “depreciating asset” move clauses in the 4th year .. a 5.5 m contract in 4 years will get eaten up by anybody .. that clause is Value back to management as an disposable asset. Ill be flabbergasted if he signed for less than that here,. or especially anywhere else . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, EdgarM said: The point being that Petey had legit top 6 forwards to play with. Lindholm was another that should have worked out but again we are getting rid of him too, apparently. And that point you made is nullified by the fact that Kuz wasn’t a fit under Tocchet like I just laid out for you. Petey was hurt the 2nd half like I said and Lindholm, is a two-way forward who was playing with an injured Petey, who isn’t a play driver, who took till the playoffs to acclimate because he had his own struggles offensively before we even traded for him and worked better as a C with Joshua and Garland. Petey needs a legit top 6 forward. Only time he really had one was with Kuz only under Boudreau where that system worked with Kuz. Gonna need one that’s gonna work under Tocchet. Edited June 30 by Junkyard Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzle Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 1 minute ago, SilentSam said: No Not necessarily. First , I think Management is offering lower than fair value. Lets keep in mind that the numbers we see here are speculative. (Lets use a 5x5 as a contract as an example.) Management has been telling players that they could re-sign : “We want players that want to be here in Vancouver” “We want players who want to be part of our Culture”.. I personally think those words harbour the inclination that if you don’t except our offer, you sir are not a team player and we / you should look elsewhere. Its a “posture” . Fair VALUE of a player in this “Capped Sport “ should actually rise every year , to the same amount the Cap rises. The same we all wish we shared Cost of Living clauses in our work to offset and hold fair value to our wages. So a player like Zadorov has to look at that same scenario, Let’s say Zadorov is offered a 5m x 5 years. The 5th year of the contract may not truly reflect the market or how the Cap has risen. It a tug of war .. because a manager’s argument can be made that a player will depreciate rather than appreciate in value. as with Zadorov’s last contract of 3.75 , he’s definitely played better than that in his short tenure here.. a managers dream if that lasted 1 , 2 , or 3 more years.… and a rip off for Zadorov . arguably a top 4 placement, easily on this team, talked to be elsewhere by the attention he has gained. And another reason to seek THAT opportunity. To me , a hypothetical deal at 5 x 5 is low on this player .. someone else can run the numbers to see what the cap MAY rise to , but to compensate fairly for an unknown cap rise over 5 years is a bit of a crap shoot . But if that contract was a bit higher, With more term, I think he would stay here , and by that I also think he would have signed for less here. Less than the offers he is about to receive. But sometimes posturing helps nobody.. Moreso timing is critical. jus my thoughts. 5.5 x 6 would have kept him. If your worried about a “depreciating asset” move clauses in the 4th year .. a 5.5 m contract in 4 years will get eaten up by anybody .. that clause is Value back to management as an disposable asset. Ill be flabbergasted if he signed for less than that here,. or especially anywhere else . Never been a top 4 fixture in his life, But will be now after ten years in the league…. I’m not buying it. Even if (and that’s a big if) he did become that, you don’t pay for what a 29 year old player might become. You pay for what they’ve been. 4.5 would have been a generous offer. By the sounds of it they went as high as 5. Loved Zad, but have no problem letting him walk at that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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