[ARTICLE] What it might take to sign Nikita Zadorov and if it makes sense for the Canucks

[Junkyard Dog]

12 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

Smaller , non-physical , top six forwards do not win you championships. 

We are 0-fer for finding wingers for Petey, maybe his wingers are not the problem?

I might agree if he wasn’t playing hurt and with guys who don’t belong anywhere near a top 6 line. 
 

We are 0-for because we kept trying top 9 guys with him. Boeser(our only top 6 winger) had his own struggles and finally bounced back while having chemistry with Miller. 

Edited June 30 by Junkyard Dog

[RWJC]

Here’s my issue with how this has played out, and I was pro mgmt the minute JR was hired:

 

When trading for Z and Lindholm, and choosing to give up valuable assets (especially to this club that lacks draft capital), both of their MAX extension purchase costs expectation should have been built in to the trade end product with at least one guaranteed mgmt would choose to re-sign.
 

Instead, we have effectively purchased rentals and although people claim it was decent value for what we gave up, the fact is we purged pieces for a playoff run that according to JR would only occur “if everything goes right”. Well, everything did go right except that we lost all of that trade capital, players, and two valuable pieces that drove our playoff run. It makes no sense to have spent for that only to watch it walk away.

 

imho, at least one of those trades should have been predicated internally that the player will be brought back. We gambled and have lost on all value out. Cap space doesn’t count as an asset when you lose bonfaide NHL players, prospects and picks to acquire it, especially when none of said assets cost the team negative value (even Kuz).
 

People can claim you don’t throw good  money after bad and in that sense applied here you don’t overspend for UFAs or players allegedly resigned to “me first” contract demands.
 

But these weren’t UFAs, and they aren’t expendable. If they were, why bother trading for them in the first place if the plan is to build a long term contender? I want this core to earn requisite playoff experience asap, but not at the cost now realized.

 

These two were our own property that are simply asking market value comparables for their services. For mgmt to expect everyone to take a haircut on their deals to play here is again rolling the dice and truly marginalizing what was finally a competitive team.

 

Now it appears we’re rolling the dice again on any potential high end top 6 W that will also have a significant number of suitors after them.

 

Lindholm perhaps wanted to play elsewhere. That’s fine. At least Z wanted to be here. Ppl claiming his ask is mostly based on recent playoff performance but it’s not. He’s had a significant career in the league thus far and is a fairly unique talent that has proven he can log 3/4/5/6 minutes when required. He may be asking for term and a large pay raise, but when you hear 10+ teams are high on him knowing full well what he’s already rejected here in Van, that tells you how valuable a commodity he actually is. 
 

The only way this offseason is salvaged is if we land that coveted top 6 W. That’s the only way. And if it occurs, it will have to be an overpayment. Hard to justify given what we’ve traded out to arrive here, imho.
 

No offense to Myers but he should have been let to test Free Agency and circled back on. Now we may just be on the outside looking in at consolatory pieces that again could be overpriced and less integral to a club that is basically now hunting for their replacements. 
 

I’m happy some players have come back at relative bargains. I’m not happy that we traded out significant value only to become a showcase for talent to seek fair market deals elsewhere. Fuck that.

 

Edited June 30 by RWJC

[Lemon Face]

Our offer was 5 mill.Lets see how much he will get on Monday

[DeNiro]

14 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

Smaller , non-physical , top six forwards do not win you championships. 

We are 0-fer for finding wingers for Petey, maybe his wingers are not the problem?

Worked for Pittsburgh, twice. 

[Lemon Face]

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Here’s my issue with how this has played out, and I was pro mgmt the minute JR was hired:

 

When trading for Z and Lindholm, and choosing to give up valuable assets (especially to this club that lacks draft capital), both of their MAX extension purchase cost expectation should have been built in to the trade and at least one guaranteed to re-sign.
 

Instead, we have effectively purchased rentals and although people claim it was decent value for what we gave up, the fact is we purged pieces for a playoff run that according to JR would only occur “if everything goes right”. Well, everything did go right except that we lost all of that trade capital, players, and two valuable pieces that drove our playoff run. It makes no sense to have spent for that only to watch it walk away.

 

imho, at least one of those trades should have been predicated internally that the player will be brought back. We gambled and have lost on all value out. Cap space doesn’t not count as an asset when you lose bonfaide NHL players, prospects and picks to acquire it, especially when none of said assets cost the team negative value (even Kuz).
 

People can claim you don’t throw good  money after bad and in that sense applied here you don’t overspend for UFAs or players allegedly resigned to “me first” contract demands.
 

But these weren’t UFAs, and they aren’t expendable. If they were, why bother trading for them in the first place if the plan is to build a long term contender? I want this core to earn requisite playoff experience asap, but not at the cost now realized.

 

These two were our own property that are simply asking market value comparables for their services. For mgmt to expect everyone to take a haircut on their deals to play here is again rolling the dice and truly marginalizing what was finally a competitive team.

 

Now it appears we’re rolling the dice again on any potential high end top 6 W that will also have a significant number of suitors after them.

 

Lindholm perhaps wanted to play elsewhere. That’s fine. At least Z wanted to be here. Ppl claiming his ask is mostly based on recent playoff performance but it’s not. He’s had a significant career in the league this far and is a fairly unique talent that has proven he can log 3/4/5/6 minutes when required. He may be asking for term and a large pay raise, but when you hear 10+ teams are high on him knowing full well what he’s already rejected here in Van, that tells you how valuable a commodity he actually is. 
 

The only way this offseason is salvaged is if we land that coveted top 6 W. That’s the only way. And if it occurs, it will have to be an overpayment. Hard to justify given what we’ve traded out to arrive here, imho.
 

No offense to Myers but he should have been let to test Free Agency and circled back on. Now we may just be on the outside looking in at consolatory pieces that again could be overpriced and less integral to a club that is basically now hunting for their replacements. 
 

I’m happy some players have come back at relative bargains. I’m not happy that we traded out significant value only to become a showcase for talent to seek fair market deals elsewhere. Fuck that.

 

Overpaying is not fair market.If i remember correctly many posters here had hard time to accept  price we paid for him.Calling him 7nt defender

[RupertKBD]

5 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Saying that it seems like they are trying to get as many of the 

 

two top 6 forwards or high end forward. 

two top 4 D

And a veteran G

 

as humanly possible with 15.5M in cap. 
 

By all reports and rumours. 
 

It sounds like they’re comfortable of trying out Hronek anchoring his line(likely with lesser D) if they can find someone for Hughes though they might have wanted Zadorov there at certain price. 
 

That they are focused in on Petey’s line and that’s where most of our cap hit is gonna go. 
 

That they want a vet G. 

 

Seems like a lot of speculation there, but if that is accurate, it seems as though the 5 million offer to Z was a big mistake. To do all that, you need to somehow find 2 top 4 D that will play for around 3-4 million. If PA can pull that off, I take back everything I said....

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, DeNiro said:

Worked for Pittsburgh, twice. 

If anything you need duos in your top 6 or really balanced depth. We got one duo with Miller/Boeser. Gotta find that with Petey or a couple 2nd line guys who compliment Petey and each other. 
 

To me that seems like the priority for JR/PA.

[EdgarM]

5 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I might agree if he wasn’t playing hurt and with guys who don’t belong anywhere near a top 6 line. 
 

We are 0-for because we kept trying top 9 guys with him. Boeser(our only top 6 winger) had his own struggles and finally bounced back while having chemistry with Miller. 

 

Kuzmenko w/ Petey - 43 games 21 points

                  w/out Petey - 29 games 25 points

[Metal Face Doom]

5 minutes ago, Lemon Face said:

Our offer was 5 mill.Lets see how much he will get on Monday

And that's already an overpay.  If he signs close to 5.5-6, that team can have him.  If he signs for say, 5.25 with someone else, then he never wanted to be here.

[Bob Long]

23 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Who would have thought that we would over pay Myers and let Zadorov go. Is this a really bad nightmare? Someone wake me up please. 

 

Myers isn't overpaid at 3 tho. Even if you want to quibble about 500k, he's not the reason.

[GrammaInTheTub]

7 minutes ago, Lemon Face said:

Our offer was 5 mill.Lets see how much he will get on Monday

Is this confirmed somewhere? I hadn’t seen any reports on our offer yet.

[RWJC]

5 minutes ago, Lemon Face said:

Overpaying is not fair market.If i remember correctly many posters here had hard time to accept  price we paid for him.Calling him 7nt defender

No. His actual value is what is paid for him in a free market. Ppl fail to understand that. The only reason he is being labeled a potential “overpayment” is because he’s less affordable for us. That’s it. If 1/3 of the league is pursuing the guy knowing he’s already rejected 4.75 and term, that means his positioning on his contract demand is sound. 
Don’t mistake our valuation of a player against fair market. Our own economy of scale and cap structure is its own internally fabricated organism. 
 

 

Edited June 30 by RWJC

[Captain insano]

1 minute ago, GrammaInTheTub said:

Is this confirmed somewhere? I hadn’t seen any reports on our offer yet.

This numbers been floating around, it’s all speculation 

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Seems like a lot of speculation there, but if that is accurate, it seems as though the 5 million offer to Z was a big mistake. To do all that, you need to somehow find 2 top 4 D that will play for around 3-4 million. If PA can pull that off, I take back everything I said....

That goes back to what I said about Hronek anchoring his own pairing. Unless you want a really good D-core at the expense of Petey’s line you only really need to find a top 4 RD which is why I speculate that the rumours of us interested in Tanev might have merit. 
 

At that point a stop gap 4/5 guy could “suffice” with Hronek saving you as much cap while you try to fill out the rest of the top 6 and veteran G as best you can. 
 

With 15.5M you only can really decide to upgrade Petey’s line or the top 4 effectively, you can’t fully do both. A choice has to be made and I feel that they’re set on Petey’s line. 

[RupertKBD]

1 minute ago, Junkyard Dog said:

That goes back to what I said about Hronek anchoring his own pairing. Unless you want a really good D-core at the expense of Petey’s line you only really need to find a top 4 RD which is why I speculate that the rumours of us interested in Tanev might have merit. 
 

At that point a stop gap 4/5 guy could “suffice” with Hronek saving you as much cap while you try to fill out the rest of the top 6 and veteran G as best you can. 
 

With 15.5M you only can really decide to upgrade Petey’s line or the top 4 effectively, you can’t fully do both. A choice has to be made and I feel that they’re set on Petey’s line. 

 

I don't really agree that this plan would work, but it still means that they shouldn't have offered Zadorov 5 million. Unless you think they could do that and still sign Tanev + 2 top 6 forwards....

[EdgarM]

8 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Worked for Pittsburgh, twice. 

 

Are you sure? Hainsey and Dumoluin - 6' 4" and 6'3" ?

[DeNiro]

Just now, EdgarM said:

 

Are you sure? Hainsey and Dumoluin - 6' 4" and 6'3" ?

 

You said top 6 forwards.

[Ghostsof1915]

12 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Here’s my issue with how this has played out, and I was pro mgmt the minute JR was hired:

 

When trading for Z and Lindholm, and choosing to give up valuable assets (especially to this club that lacks draft capital), both of their MAX extension purchase costs expectation should have been built in to the trade end product with at least one guaranteed mgmt would choose to re-sign.
 

Instead, we have effectively purchased rentals and although people claim it was decent value for what we gave up, the fact is we purged pieces for a playoff run that according to JR would only occur “if everything goes right”. Well, everything did go right except that we lost all of that trade capital, players, and two valuable pieces that drove our playoff run. It makes no sense to have spent for that only to watch it walk away.

 

imho, at least one of those trades should have been predicated internally that the player will be brought back. We gambled and have lost on all value out. Cap space doesn’t count as an asset when you lose bonfaide NHL players, prospects and picks to acquire it, especially when none of said assets cost the team negative value (even Kuz).
 

People can claim you don’t throw good  money after bad and in that sense applied here you don’t overspend for UFAs or players allegedly resigned to “me first” contract demands.
 

But these weren’t UFAs, and they aren’t expendable. If they were, why bother trading for them in the first place if the plan is to build a long term contender? I want this core to earn requisite playoff experience asap, but not at the cost now realized.

 

These two were our own property that are simply asking market value comparables for their services. For mgmt to expect everyone to take a haircut on their deals to play here is again rolling the dice and truly marginalizing what was finally a competitive team.

 

Now it appears we’re rolling the dice again on any potential high end top 6 W that will also have a significant number of suitors after them.

 

Lindholm perhaps wanted to play elsewhere. That’s fine. At least Z wanted to be here. Ppl claiming his ask is mostly based on recent playoff performance but it’s not. He’s had a significant career in the league thus far and is a fairly unique talent that has proven he can log 3/4/5/6 minutes when required. He may be asking for term and a large pay raise, but when you hear 10+ teams are high on him knowing full well what he’s already rejected here in Van, that tells you how valuable a commodity he actually is. 
 

The only way this offseason is salvaged is if we land that coveted top 6 W. That’s the only way. And if it occurs, it will have to be an overpayment. Hard to justify given what we’ve traded out to arrive here, imho.
 

No offense to Myers but he should have been let to test Free Agency and circled back on. Now we may just be on the outside looking in at consolatory pieces that again could be overpriced and less integral to a club that is basically now hunting for their replacements. 
 

I’m happy some players have come back at relative bargains. I’m not happy that we traded out significant value only to become a showcase for talent to seek fair market deals elsewhere. Fuck that.

 

How do you know that they didn't talk with the agents before the trades?

You realize up until the playoffs we'd probably gotten Lindholm and Zads at an affordable price.

Both had good to very good playoffs. Both players looked like they thrive in the playoffs.

Other GM's saw this. Centres and Defence will always be in demand.

I don't think PA predicted that Boston, and Toronto among other teams would be pushing the prices up.

It's easy to say after the fact.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

6 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

Kuzmenko w/ Petey - 43 games 21 points

                  w/out Petey - 29 games 25 points

The first half of the season when Petey was at his best, playing like an All-Star despite Kuz struggling?

On a team coached by Rick Tocchet?

 

Seems you left out the most important parts. 

[Hugh_Jasoule]

34 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

Smaller , non-physical , top six forwards do not win you championships. 

We are 0-fer for finding wingers for Petey, maybe his wingers are not the problem?

My emotions say no…. My logical brain says - you might just have a valid point.  Good insight. 

[Junkyard Dog]

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I don't really agree that this plan would work, but it still means that they shouldn't have offered Zadorov 5 million. Unless you think they could do that and still sign Tanev + 2 top 6 forwards....

Could just be one really good forward too. Like how Boeser/Miller are a duo. 
 

Maybe they were hoping to keep Zadorov around Tanev money instead and literally run back the same D while having enough for Petey. Maybe this is plan B if Zadorov cost us too much. 
 

We will see. 

[EdgarM]

6 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

 

You said top 6 forwards.

I was responding to Junkyard as he said we were prioritizing a top six forward instead of solidifying our Dcore. I said we need our solid defense first before a scoring winger for Petey.

[Elias Pettersson]

29 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Here’s my issue with how this has played out, and I was pro mgmt the minute JR was hired:

 

When trading for Z and Lindholm, and choosing to give up valuable assets (especially to this club that lacks draft capital), both of their MAX extension purchase costs expectation should have been built in to the trade end product with at least one guaranteed mgmt would choose to re-sign.
 

Instead, we have effectively purchased rentals and although people claim it was decent value for what we gave up, the fact is we purged pieces for a playoff run that according to JR would only occur “if everything goes right”. Well, everything did go right except that we lost all of that trade capital, players, and two valuable pieces that drove our playoff run. It makes no sense to have spent for that only to watch it walk away.

 

imho, at least one of those trades should have been predicated internally that the player will be brought back. We gambled and have lost on all value out. Cap space doesn’t count as an asset when you lose bonfaide NHL players, prospects and picks to acquire it, especially when none of said assets cost the team negative value (even Kuz).
 

People can claim you don’t throw good  money after bad and in that sense applied here you don’t overspend for UFAs or players allegedly resigned to “me first” contract demands.
 

But these weren’t UFAs, and they aren’t expendable. If they were, why bother trading for them in the first place if the plan is to build a long term contender? I want this core to earn requisite playoff experience asap, but not at the cost now realized.

 

These two were our own property that are simply asking market value comparables for their services. For mgmt to expect everyone to take a haircut on their deals to play here is again rolling the dice and truly marginalizing what was finally a competitive team.

 

Now it appears we’re rolling the dice again on any potential high end top 6 W that will also have a significant number of suitors after them.

 

Lindholm perhaps wanted to play elsewhere. That’s fine. At least Z wanted to be here. Ppl claiming his ask is mostly based on recent playoff performance but it’s not. He’s had a significant career in the league thus far and is a fairly unique talent that has proven he can log 3/4/5/6 minutes when required. He may be asking for term and a large pay raise, but when you hear 10+ teams are high on him knowing full well what he’s already rejected here in Van, that tells you how valuable a commodity he actually is. 
 

The only way this offseason is salvaged is if we land that coveted top 6 W. That’s the only way. And if it occurs, it will have to be an overpayment. Hard to justify given what we’ve traded out to arrive here, imho.
 

No offense to Myers but he should have been let to test Free Agency and circled back on. Now we may just be on the outside looking in at consolatory pieces that again could be overpriced and less integral to a club that is basically now hunting for their replacements. 
 

I’m happy some players have come back at relative bargains. I’m not happy that we traded out significant value only to become a showcase for talent to seek fair market deals elsewhere. Fuck that.

 

And how exactly do you know this?  Were you in the negotiating room?  
 

From media reports, we offered Zadorov $5 million. You think his market value is higher than that?  Apparently he wants $6 million. You gonna pay him $6 million?  
 

We offered Lindholm $7 million. You want to pay him more?  Apparently he wants $8 million. 
 

Regardless of what we paid in those trades to acquire those players, it makes no sense to overpay on certain players and not on others. Every dollar counts now with the OEL buyout. 

Edited June 30 by Elias Pettersson

[EdgarM]

8 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

The first half of the season when Petey was at his best, playing like an All-Star despite Kuz struggling?

On a team coached by Rick Tocchet?

 

Seems you left out the most important parts. 

So is Kuz a legit top 6 or not? 25 points in 29 games seems like he is. Contrary to what you are saying.

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

And how exactly do you know this?  Were you in the negotiating room?  
 

From media reports, we offered Zadorov $5 million. You think his market value is higher than that?  Apparently he wants $6 million. You gonna pay him $6 million?  
 

We offered Lindholm $7 million. You want to pay him more?  Apparently he wants $8 million. 
 

Regardless of what we paid in those trades to acquire those surfs, it makes no sense to overpay on certain players and not on others. Every dollar counts now with the OEL buyout. 

Actually if we traded you!!! We could afford both. I sure liked their playoff performance over yours.