[ARTICLE] What it might take to sign Nikita Zadorov and if it makes sense for the Canucks

[Comox Blaster]

Sign him.  Let Myers and Hronek walk.  Dillon can replace Myers defensively and start looking on the farm.  

[Bob Long]

43 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

If he wants that kind of money, he's not going to get it from any serious cup contender, imo.  

 

We were talking about Treliving after all.

[Diamonds]

Does anyone else find it funny that the same people that shit on Gudbranson and his overpayment by Columbus are the same people that want to overpay Zadorov?

 

Guess what, the year they were both in Calgary Gudbranson averaged a minute more aTOI and about 2 minutes more on the PK and played a similarly physical game. Offensively Zadorov has provided a little bit more, but not drastically so. Gudbranson averaged 18:08/game that year and even this year Zadorov averaged 17:04/game for the Canucks during the regular season. Gudbranson signed with Columbus at age 30 and Zadorov is 29 now.

 

So, if Gudbranson at $4M x 4 was some crazy overpayment (also RHD premium) then wouldn't $5.5M+ x 6 or 7 years for Zadorov also be?

 

Zadorov managed to really step up his game in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he can play at that level year-round. Obviously he's a great personality and seems to get along well with everyone on the team. We would all love to re-sign him but that doesn't mean we should jump to overpay him. I still hold fast that my absolute cap for him would be $5M and no more than 5 years unless he's taking in the 4's. There just isn't enough resume for him playing at that consistent top 4 level to justify more than that.

[Dizzle]

18 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

Does anyone else find it funny that the same people that shit on Gudbranson and his overpayment by Columbus are the same people that want to overpay Zadorov?

 

Guess what, the year they were both in Calgary Gudbranson averaged a minute more aTOI and about 2 minutes more on the PK and played a similarly physical game. Offensively Zadorov has provided a little bit more, but not drastically so. Gudbranson averaged 18:08/game that year and even this year Zadorov averaged 17:04/game for the Canucks during the regular season. Gudbranson signed with Columbus at age 30 and Zadorov is 29 now.

 

So, if Gudbranson at $4M x 4 was some crazy overpayment (also RHD premium) then wouldn't $5.5M+ x 6 or 7 years for Zadorov also be?

 

Zadorov managed to really step up his game in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he can play at that level year-round. Obviously he's a great personality and seems to get along well with everyone on the team. We would all love to re-sign him but that doesn't mean we should jump to overpay him. I still hold fast that my absolute cap for him would be $5M and no more than 5 years unless he's taking in the 4's. There just isn't enough resume for him playing at that consistent top 4 level to justify more than that.

All else being equal, I would definitely take Zadorov over Guddy, but your point is a fair one. 
 

IF Zadorov is making over 5 he has to be a second pairing guy. I just don’t know if that is a good gamble to make. He’s shown flashes of that kind of ability, but he’s also got a long resume that suggests he is a 4/5 tweener not a mainstay top 4 guy. 

Edited May 29 by Dizzle

[N4ZZY]

11 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

All else being equal, I would definitely take Zadorov over Guddy, but your point is a fair one. 
 

IF Zadorov is making over 5 he has to be a second pairing guy. I just don’t know if that is a good gamble to make. He’s shown flashes of that kind of ability, but he’s also got a long resume that suggests he is a 4/5 tweener not a mainstay top 4 guy. 

Thing is. Zadorov probably doesn’t see himself as a 4/5 tweener but a top 4 guy. What happens if you pay him like a top four only for him to produce in reality like a bottom four. Then we’re stuck with yet another bad contract moving forward. 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Thing is. Zadorov probably doesn’t see himself as a 4/5 tweener but a top 4 guy. What happens if you pay him like a top four only for him to produce in reality like a bottom four. Then we’re stuck with yet another bad contract moving forward. 

I mentioned in another post that if Zadorov reaches that $6M mark, we really need to reassess.  Brett Pesce could probably be had for $6.5M, and Matt Roy could probably be had for $5.5M.  Both RHD which would better balance our D core.  If Zadorov is in the low $5M range, then I'm all for it.  Once he reaches the high $5M or $6M range, we need to look at other options.

[N4ZZY]

11 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I mentioned in another post that if Zadorov reaches that $6M mark, we really need to reassess.  Brett Pesce could probably be had for $6.5M, and Matt Roy could probably be had for $5.5M.  Both RHD which would better balance our D core.  If Zadorov is in the low $5M range, then I'm all for it.  Once he reaches the high $5M or $6M range, we need to look at other options.

Yea. I love Zadorov. But if you can land two defensive players and both are RHD for one. Then I think management has to do that. Assuming of course players like Pesce would sign here as a free agent and Roy too. Others are going to bid on them as well. So if you can’t sign Zadorov but then miss out on quality defensive players. Then the team is screwed. 

[fuzzy]

13 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I mentioned in another post that if Zadorov reaches that $6M mark, we really need to reassess.  Brett Pesce could probably be had for $6.5M, and Matt Roy could probably be had for $5.5M.  Both RHD which would better balance our D core.  If Zadorov is in the low $5M range, then I'm all for it.  Once he reaches the high $5M or $6M range, we need to look at other options.

I concur

[stawns]

3 hours ago, Comox Blaster said:

Sign him.  Let Myers and Hronek walk.  Dillon can replace Myers defensively and start looking on the farm.  

 

Ld vs rd

[Dr. Crossbar]

20 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

 

Remember Vancouver fans were fuming at Myers at $6 million per. Well he has produced more offense, been a higher plus player and played more ATOI throughout his career versus Zadorov.

 

Vancouver all wants Myers gone or back for the $ 3-4m range per, you can't in the same breath now want to repeat a mistake and add a 4/5 guy in the $5m + range long term. Zadorov isn't that guy. BUT since everyone is in love with him right now, let's say he can get an offer of 6 years ? at $ 5 miilion per ?? that is absolute top end of what the team should be doing and likely means the team has to utilize a Brisebois, Juulsen or Friedman type again throughout the year where maybe Cole was positioned. 

 

People thinking too much with their emotions around here. It's an interesting study of online behavior.

[stawns]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

We were talking about Treliving after all.

 

That Toronto, not a contending team!

[Dr. Crossbar]

28 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I mentioned in another post that if Zadorov reaches that $6M mark, we really need to reassess.  Brett Pesce could probably be had for $6.5M, and Matt Roy could probably be had for $5.5M.  Both RHD which would better balance our D core.  If Zadorov is in the low $5M range, then I'm all for it.  Once he reaches the high $5M or $6M range, we need to look at other options.

 

I was going to post Zad at low $5 range yesterday. Anything between $5 and 5.5, which would be almost $2 mill more than he's making now.

 

We can't wind back to the past ten years of overpayments. Fans really need to be prepared to let some guys walk. I'm not saying we let Big Z walk but we really need to be careful. Every guy can't be overpaid. That includes Hronek. I'm more confident in this management than last. They are focused on the team.

 

We just can't have it both ways. There needs to be a line in the sand.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by Dr. Crossbar

[kilgore]

There are some players that its worth it to overpay.  Z is one of them. Because if you add up the playoff presence, as well as the way he contributes to the new "Canucks hockey" where its us who knock, and his locker room personality which is underrated in its importance, then he won't be overpaid, even if its something like 6 x 4.  The quiet room of Horvats term is just not ideal.  The Sedins had Bieksa, Kesler, and Burrows in the room.  We have Miller and..... Seriously, who else has the personality to help galvanize the room?  Its part of building a contender.  IMO it would be a huge loss to lose Zadorov. 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

Does anyone else find it funny that the same people that shit on Gudbranson and his overpayment by Columbus are the same people that want to overpay Zadorov?

No. Nothing about that is funny. Zadorov is a superior skater, passer, shooter, and overall player than Gudbranson, who is probably a tougher pugilist. 

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

Guess what, the year they were both in Calgary Gudbranson averaged a minute more aTOI and about 2 minutes more on the PK and played a similarly physical game. Offensively Zadorov has provided a little bit more, but not drastically so. Gudbranson averaged 18:08/game that year and even this year Zadorov averaged 17:04/game for the Canucks during the regular season. Gudbranson signed with Columbus at age 30 and Zadorov is 29 now.

That was in Calgary about three seasons ago. Different teams and different coaches result in different outcomes. 

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

So, if Gudbranson at $4M x 4 was some crazy overpayment (also RHD premium) then wouldn't $5.5M+ x 6 or 7 years for Zadorov also be?

It depends. Zadorov was clearly one of the most consistent players in the playoffs, you know the time of year when teams really show what they're made of. There aren't many players of his size that are offensively talented who can skate as well as he can. Obviously, there is a limit as to what that combined set of size, skill, and speed is worth.

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

Zadorov managed to really step up his game in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he can play at that level year-round.

What player plays at the playoff intensity level all season long? Pettersson barely showed up in the playoffs and played markedly pedestrian for about half the season. Is he worth $11.6M a year?

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

Obviously he's a great personality and seems to get along well with everyone on the team. We would all love to re-sign him but that doesn't mean we should jump to overpay him.

Does Alvin strike you as a GM that is jumping to overpay? I mean, Mikeyev is probably his only really bunk signing. 

[RupertKBD]

On 5/28/2024 at 7:54 AM, BC_Hawk said:

No pressure on us. Simply qualify him, and conr=tinue to work on a contract or trade. Do you think a player likes risking injury on a QO?

 

I'm not an expert on free agency, but I don't think it works like that. The player can just turn down the QO and go to arbitration....

[NewbieCanuckFan]

14 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

No. Nothing about that is funny. Zadorov is a superior skater, passer, shooter, and overall player than Gudbranson, who is probably a tougher pugilist. 

 

As well...who cares what Columbus pays Gudbranson?  They're a lotter pick team.  They need *somebody* on their blueline.  There isn't anything hockey related that Gubranson does better than Zadorov.  I don't see how the comparison is relevant (my POV).

[BC_Hawk]

7 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I'm not an expert on free agency, but I don't think it works like that. The player can just turn down the QO and go to arbitration....

absolutely he can, but then he is stuck with whatever the arbitrator assigns. In addition, it isn't suppose to be the best process for the player; most avoid it like the plague.

 

In the end, Nux control him for 2024/25. If he wants to play next year, it will be for the nux or whomever they trade him to. The Canucks control the situation; the two years of club control is why he fetched what he did in the trade.

 

What we are seeing here is the dance; Hronek asks for the moon, and quotes his production in first half as reasoning. Canucks counter with low ball offer, and quote his production was based on playing with Hughes. State he can only demand that $$ if he proves he can drive his own line (hence PA's comments). This is the way RFA negotiations go; both parties understand they are married to each other for the next year, so no huge hurry to get a deal done like a UFA.

Edited May 29 by BC_Hawk

[RupertKBD]

Also, I think maybe some folks are looking at these contract negotiations the wrong way. It isn't some arbitrary number and term that you think the player is worth....it's what he can get on the open market.

 

It's all well and good to say, "let him walk" if he wants more than you believe he's worth, but if someone else pays him that much, then he's worth it. Now you're at the point where you say, "No problem. We'll just sign player X for this amount of money and this term". Well, what if that player wants more than you think he's worth?

 

We can debate about whether Z is going to get better at age 29, but the one thing we know, is that he's not going to get smaller. Nor is he going to get less inclined to lay big hits on opposing forwards. In a nutshell, he's the kind of player the team needs if they're going to compete with teams like Vegas and Dallas, instead of being pushed around like they did in past seasons.

 

I don't think that Z's combination of size, physicality, speed and finesse are easily replaced at all and I believe PA will make an offer based on what the market dictates.....which in my estimation, is going to be more than many here are comfortable with.

 

Personally, I'm hoping they can work something out.

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

absolutely he can, but then he is stuck with whatever the arbitrator assigns. In addition, it isn't suppose to be the best process for the player; most avoid it like the plague.

 

In the end, Nux control him for 2024/25. If he wants to play next year, it will be for the nux or whomever they trade him to. The Canucks control the situation; the two years of club control is why he fetched what he did in the trade.

 

What we are seeing here is the dance; Hronek asks for the moon, and quotes his production in first half as reasoning. Canucks counter with low ball offer, and quote his production was based on playing with Hughes. State he can only demand that $$ if he proves he can drive his own line (hence PA's comments). This is the way RFA negotiations go; both parties understand they are married to each other for the next year, so no huge hurry to get a deal done like a UFA.

 

If he goes to arbitration the team can't trade him and he walks to free agency

[PhillipBlunt]

10 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

As well...who cares what Columbus pays Gudbranson?  They're a lotter pick team.  They need *somebody* on their blueline.  There isn't anything hockey related that Gubranson does better than Zadorov.  I don't see how the comparison is relevant (my POV).

I agree. It was a poor comparison. I was just trying to be nice. 

[RupertKBD]

8 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

absolutely he can, but then he is stuck with whatever the arbitrator assigns. In addition, it isn't suppose to be the best process for the player; most avoid it like the plague.

 

In the end, Nux control him for 2024/25. If he wants to play next year, it will be for the nux or whomever they trade him to. The Canucks control the situation; the two years of club control is why he fetched what he did in the trade.

 

What we are seeing here is the dance; Hronek asks for the moon, and quotes his production in first half as reasoning. Canucks counter with low ball offer, and quote his production was based on playing with Hughes. State he can only demand that $$ if he proves he can drive his own line (hence PA's comments). This is the way RFA negotiations go; both parties understand they are married to each other for the next year, so no huge hurry to get a deal done like a UFA.

 

What if he goes to arbitration and gets a 1 year deal at over 7 million (based on the Hanifin contract comparable) and then gets to UFA status? How does that help the Canucks?

[Dizzle]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

Thing is. Zadorov probably doesn’t see himself as a 4/5 tweener but a top 4 guy. What happens if you pay him like a top four only for him to produce in reality like a bottom four. Then we’re stuck with yet another bad contract moving forward. 

 

This is exactly the problem. The guy is awesome for what he is. I'd even be willing to give him a little bit extra for his physicality and what he brings... but getting stuck over paying because we've all fallen in love with the physicality and the personality could be a real problem. 

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

Also, I think maybe some folks are looking at these contract negotiations the wrong way. It isn't some arbitrary number and term that you think the player is worth....it's what he can get on the open market.

 

It's all well and good to say, "let him walk" if he wants more than you believe he's worth, but if someone else pays him that much, then he's worth it. Now you're at the point where you say, "No problem. We'll just sign player X for this amount of money and this term". Well, what if that player wants more than you think he's worth?

 

We can debate about whether Z is going to get better at age 29, but the one thing we know, is that he's not going to get smaller. Nor is he going to get less inclined to lay big hits on opposing forwards. In a nutshell, he's the kind of player the team needs if they're going to compete with teams like Vegas and Dallas, instead of being pushed around like they did in past seasons.

 

I don't think that Z's combination of size, physicality, speed and finesse are easily replaced at all and I believe PA will make an offer based on what the market dictates.....which in my estimation, is going to be more than many here are comfortable with.

 

Personally, I'm hoping they can work something out.

 

If course his value is determined by what he can get on the open market, but the bigger factor is what the team thinks his value is to them and I think there's a big discrepancy between those two values

[RupertKBD]

Just now, stawns said:

If course his value is determined by what he can get on the open market, but the bigger factor is what the team thinks his value is to them and I think there's a big discrepancy between those two values

 

Are you sure about that? Or are you speaking for the team?

[PhillipBlunt]

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

It's all well and good to say, "let him walk" if he wants more than you believe he's worth, but if someone else pays him that much, then he's worth it. Now you're at the point where you say, "No problem. We'll just sign player X for this amount of money and this term". Well, what if that player wants more than you think he's worth?

Good points. Not something a lot of armchair GMs take into account. 

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

We can debate about whether Z is going to get better at age 29, but the one thing we know, is that he's not going to get smaller. Nor is he going to get less inclined to lay big hits on opposing forwards. In a nutshell, he's the kind of player the team needs if they're going to compete with teams like Vegas and Dallas, instead of being pushed around like they did in past seasons.

I'd say this last season was one of his best. Not only was a physical force, but his defensive acumen was on full display. He was one of the better defensemen, not named Quinn, at carrying the puck out of the zone. He also showed a markedly improved offensive game. His goals in the playoffs were excellent as well. 

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

I don't think that Z's combination of size, physicality, speed and finesse are easily replaced at all and I believe PA will make an offer based on what the market dictates.....which in my estimation, is going to be more than many here are comfortable with.

 

Personally, I'm hoping they can work something out.

I can't think of a player of his size and ferocity in the league that also possesses the skating and offensive capability that he has. Under the award winning coaching staff, I can only imagine what capability Tocchet, Foote and Gonchar can find in Zadorov given a full season to work with him.