6of1_halfdozenofother Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 As this topic really is a topic worthy of its own thread, and because there are people who hold very strong points of view on this sort of thing, and because it has a knack of causing the political threads to get derailed from time to time, I figured it's time it deserved its own thread. And I'll start with a news article from the political right's favourite media punching bag, the CBC. And this article actually only tangentially touches upon humans, even though I know people are passionate about the human version of this topic of discussion. Quote New documentary shows gender diversity par for the course in nature With host Mae Martin, episode visits Royal Botanical Gardens and explores the 'variety' of examples around us Saira Peesker · CBC News · Posted: Mar 26, 2024 8:28 AM PDT | Last Updated: 6 hours ago Canadian comedian Mae Martin hosts Fluid: Life Beyond the Binary, which airs on The Nature of Things this Thursday. (Kensington Communications) The natural world is full of gender diversity: female hyenas have pseudo penises used for sex and urination, many species of fish and plants change their sex over their lifespan, and female lions have been known to grow manes and develop a masculine growl. Those are among many examples in a new episode of CBC's The Nature of Things titled Fluid: Life Beyond the Binary — a documentary hosted by Canadian comedian Mae Martin that puts the gender spectrum exhibited by humans in the context of the rest of the living things surrounding us, and finds that it's really quite par for the course. "Nature teaches us that there's a lot of variety out there and generalizations are pretty impossible," says Joan Roughgarden, an evolutionary biologist interviewed in the episode, who wrote a book called Evolution's Rainbow. Female hyenas have a pseudo penis and are best described as intersex, according to scientists interviewed in Fluid: Life Beyond the Binary. (Kensington Communications) Roughgarden says scientists long avoided probing gender diversity, which gave some the mistaken impression that it hasn't always existed among many kinds of organisms, including humans. But seeing the diversity among her own peers at events that celebrate gay pride made it clear to her that "there's nothing the matter with the people. There's something the matter with the science." 'Nature teaches us that there's a lot of variety out there and generalizations are pretty impossible,' says evolutionary biologist Joan Roughgarden. (Lulu Wei/Kensington Communications) The show, which airs Thursday on CBC and CBC Gem at 9 p.m. ET, includes numerous examples of gender and sexual diversity in the wild, such as: Ruffs: a type of sandpiper found on the fjords of Norway. The male birds have many different appearances, including some that look the same as the females. Bonobos: "I would call bonobos bisexual in that they have sex in all combinations," said primatologist Frans de Waal, who was filmed for the show before his death on March 14 at the age of 75. "It is also quite common to find females who have masculine traits." He described one female named Donna that he observed, who grew more masculine in her appearance as she aged, and was "extremely well accepted" among the males. "She was an individual who crossed the binary… Maybe she corresponds with what we would call a trans person in human society." Clownfish – a tropical species made famous by the animated family film Finding Nemo. Neuroscientist Justin Rhodes explains that "if the female is removed or gets displaced, the male will change sex and become a female. He explains that many fish species can change their biological sex — about 500, according to another part of the episode — but most often change from female to male, often within a week. The case of the clownfish is unique in that the physical changes can take years, leaving the fish in an "intermediate state" biologically while it begins to adopt female behaviour. "The gonads don't define the sex of these animals… it's happening in the brain." 'These are not outliers' "It warms my heart because I see aspects of myself reflected in nature," says host Martin, who is non-binary, noting science has come to accept widespread natural gender diversity. "These are not outliers. This is the mainstream view." Mae Martin explores the science of gender and sexual fluidity in a new episode of The Nature of Things 13 days ago Duration1:10 ‘Fluid: Life Beyond the Binary’ debunks dangerous pseudo-scientific myths and introduces cutting-edge research to reveal that in a very real and measurable sense, we are all gender fluid. Coming to CBC and CBC Gem on March 28, 2024. The plant world is also rife with gender fluidity, says horticulturist Jon Peter, of the Royal Botanical Gardens (RBG) in Burlington, Ont. Peter is featured in the episode discussing the red ginger, a tropical plant that is male in the mornings, producing pollen, and switches to female in the afternoons, moving to a state where its egg can be fertilized. There are many local examples as well, Peter noted in an interview with CBC Hamilton this week: Moosewood, or moose maple, start out as male when they're young but can produce male and female flowers as they get older and then female flowers as they mature and get closer to the forest canopy. "When they're young and juvenile, they are looking to set down their roots and get established. It doesn't make sense for them to produce fruit." Spruce, which can have "female cones higher up in the canopy, and the lower branches will have male cones" on the same tree. Jack-in-the-Pulpit, a forest plant that starts as a "non-sexual juvenile," then becomes male, and turns female in later life. While not indigenous to Ontario, ginkgo is widely cultivated here, including at the RBG. Peter says that while it has separate male and female trees, a branch or a whole tree can change to female if there aren't other females around for pollination. Primates often display gender-fluid behaviour, according to the documentary. (Kensington Communications) "A lot of this is really new to science, there's not a lot out there about these processes," he said, while proposing they may have evolved as a way to pass genetics on to the next generation. "As that plant matures and is seeing its lifespan coming to an end, it thinks 'I need to produce seed now.'" 'Gender is a much wider spectrum than the two boxes' The episode's editor, Peter Topalovic, says he always learns something doing his job, whether it's editing a baking show or Canada's Got Talent, but says the episode taught him way more than he was expecting. Topalovic, who grew up in Hamilton and went to Bishop Ryan Catholic Secondary School, says the show affirms the normalcy of all forms of gender expression and sexuality. "When you look at the unbiased scientific findings, as we do in this documentary, you see that fluidity is not unusual at all," he told CBC Hamilton in an interview. "Gender is a much wider spectrum than the two boxes we put people in. There's masculine, feminine and so much in between." Film editor Peter Topalovic, who grew up in Hamilton, says discussing gender expression on The Nature of Things will bring awareness to a wider audience. (Submitted by Peter Topalovic) He's pleased that the wide reach of The Nature of Things will bring issues of gender to some people who may not have thought much about it before. "I know that my older, Croatian parents will be tuning in to learn about a topic they otherwise wouldn't be exposed to," he said. "With this documentary, I hope more trans people feel seen and more cis people feel compassion for them." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/gender-diversity-nature-1.7155092 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bob Long Posted March 26 Popular Post Share Posted March 26 For me this one is a simple issue. If you actually believe that everyone is equal, it doesn't matter what gender they are at birth, think they are, or decide they are later. It only becomes an issue when you bring something like your spin on religion or some other divider into it. 4 1 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 It's about time. Been waiting for this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: For me this one is a simple issue. If you actually believe that everyone is equal, it doesn't matter what gender they are at birth, think they are, or decide they are later. It only becomes an issue when you bring something like your spin on religion or some other divider into it. Cool, Now iron out the sports angle. Should we be letting those born male, with all the hormones that come along with it, compete in born female sports? In specific college sports where scholarships etc can be at stake. Not that I have read any of that happening...but could it? Edited March 27 by bishopshodan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck You Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 I'm still pissed off about all the woman and children being able to go first from the Titanic and men had to sit there and play the violin WTF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Cool, Now iron out the sports angle. Should we be letting those born male, with all the hormones that come along with it, complete in born female sports? In specific college sports where scholarships etc can at stake. Not that I have read any of that happening...but could it? sure, why not? its only an issue apparently pre-transition: see: https://www.bbc.com/sport/46453958 So I suppose for the narrow situation of someone pre-transition, maybe thats a place where they'd have to still compete in their birth gender. Most sports also have weight classes, or other categorizations. Seems to me like there would be a natural place for a person to slot in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Look, I'm all for gender identities - that are legitimate - but come on, some are ridiculous. Furries? Come on, and society has lost their minds - I heard today that back east, there are schools that provide large cat litter boxes for kids that say they are a furry. Unbelievable. Can evolution please reset. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post 6of1_halfdozenofother Posted March 27 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 27 5 minutes ago, Heretic said: Look, I'm all for gender identities - that are legitimate - but come on, some are ridiculous. Furries? Come on, and society has lost their minds - I heard today that back east, there are schools that provide large cat litter boxes for kids that say they are a furry. Unbelievable. Can evolution please reset. https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/01/30/how-furries-got-swept-up-in-anti-trans-litter-box-rumors/ Long since debunked, my friend. 1 1 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 15 minutes ago, Heretic said: Look, I'm all for gender identities - that are legitimate - but come on, some are ridiculous. Furries? Come on, and society has lost their minds - I heard today that back east, there are schools that provide large cat litter boxes for kids that say they are a furry. Unbelievable. Can evolution please reset. Furries have nothing to do with gender identity. And no, no schools are providing litter boxes for students. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 21 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Most sports also have weight classes, or other categorizations But I wonder about the hormones... i would think a 145lb male is massively different than a 145lb female because of that. At least that was my experince from years of training alongside females in martial arts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: But I wonder about the hormones... i would think a 145lb male is massively different than a 145lb female because of that. At least that was my experince from years of training alongside females in martial arts. I would think the issue is more so skeletal structure than hormones. Transgender people undergo hormone replacement therapy as part of their transition and have levels within the range of their identified gender after they've undergone it for some time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 11 minutes ago, 112 said: Furries have nothing to do with gender identity. And no, no schools are providing litter boxes for students. "In the social sciences, sex and gender are recognized as distinct concepts. Sex is typically conceptualized as an element of a person’s biologicy, whereas gender, which is socially constructed, refers to aspects of a person’s psychology (e.g., behaviour, self-perception)." Though, if we go by what you say, a furry then is technically just a fan, just as we are Canucks fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maninthebox Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I don't care what you identify as. You shouldn't care what I identify you as. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Totally the goal of a straight male to change just to dominate athletics. /s So absurd that South Park lambasted this talking point a number of years ago. Ohhhhh yaaaaaaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barn Burner Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, Maninthebox said: I don't care what you identify as. You shouldn't care what I identify you as. Yeah exactly. Just don't lay your shit on me. Do whatever it is you do, but ever violate anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Heretic said: "In the social sciences, sex and gender are recognized as distinct concepts. Sex is typically conceptualized as an element of a person’s biologicy, whereas gender, which is socially constructed, refers to aspects of a person’s psychology (e.g., behaviour, self-perception)." Though, if we go by what you say, a furry then is technically just a fan, just as we are Canucks fans. I'm not sure furscience.com is a good source for this. You won't find anyone who works in transgender healthcare who thinks furries/otherkin are trans. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: For me this one is a simple issue. If you actually believe that everyone is equal, it doesn't matter what gender they are at birth, think they are, or decide they are later. It only becomes an issue when you bring something like your spin on religion or some other divider into it. Exactly. I don't care who's in what bathroom, just don't make eye contact with me and wash your hands please. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Sparkle Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, bishopshodan said: Cool, Now iron out the sports angle. Should we be letting those born male, with all the hormones that come along with it, complete in born female sports? In specific college sports where scholarships etc can at stake. Not that I have read any of that happening...but could it? most sports leagues that allow trans people to compete have rules that state that a person has to be on HRT for a certain amount of time. a trans woman on HRT for 2 years will have not have the testosterone and muscle that's lost over time to give any sort of an "edge" so unless a trans girl starts HRT early in high school, they most likely wont be eligible for the scholarships 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) I am staying out of this this post lol Edited March 27 by The Arrogant Worms 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Zamboni Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 brb...getting popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Twilight Sparkle Posted March 27 Popular Post Share Posted March 27 6 minutes ago, Toni Zamboni said: brb...getting popcorn i mean, i'm here for the transphobia and bigotry that will be displayed too lol 3 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoop Hogg Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 57 minutes ago, Heretic said: Look, I'm all for gender identities - that are legitimate - but come on, some are ridiculous. Furries? Come on, and society has lost their minds - I heard today that back east, there are schools that provide large cat litter boxes for kids that say they are a furry. Unbelievable. Can evolution please reset. This post belongs in the cheesy joke thread. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 People are so going to get banned from this message board the first time tempers flare. Honestly I hope this thread dies soon. Sorry @6of1_halfdozenofother. I mean no disrespect towards you. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 9 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said: most sports leagues that allow trans people to compete have rules that state that a person has to be on HRT for a certain amount of time. a trans woman on HRT for 2 years will have not have the testosterone and muscle that's lost over time to give any sort of an "edge" so unless a trans girl starts HRT early in high school, they most likely wont be eligible for the scholarships This is probably the best way to handle it I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Snoop Hogg Posted March 27 Popular Post Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said: i mean, i'm here for the transphobia and bigotry that will be displayed too lol It’s a shame that in 2024, that transphobia, along with racism, is still a thing. 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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