6of1_halfdozenofother Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 15 minutes ago, King Heffy said: Parents have all the rights they need in Canada. We do have laws in place to protect children from abusive parents; I don't think that's crazy. If anything, I would think that this talk of "parental rights" is the convergence from two angles - those who abdicated their rights and now seek to overcompensate, as well as those who seek to have absolute control over others - trying to take over the narrative of how their rights have somehow been unjustly stripped by "duh gubbermint" and/or "duh evil teacherz" (they haven't and they can't) and implement their view of the world of absolute control over kids (and in the process, actually and quite ironically surrendering what rights they have to the government they claim had stifled their rights). But hey, "muh freedumbs, muh rights!" 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 7 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: If anything, I would think that this talk of "parental rights" is the convergence from two angles - those who abdicated their rights and now seek to overcompensate, as well as those who seek to have absolute control over others - trying to take over the narrative of how their rights have somehow been unjustly stripped by "duh gubbermint" and/or "duh evil teacherz" (they haven't and they can't) and implement their view of the world of absolute control over kids (and in the process, actually and quite ironically surrendering what rights they have to the government they claim had stifled their rights). But hey, "muh freedumbs, muh rights!" That crowd also uses the same language in the US as justification for why they should be allowed to assault their children. Parental rights come with parental responsibilities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 35 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: This is the first time I have seen this topic come up on cdc/cff. I dont have social media so I havent been part of any other discussion. The percentage of how much it happens isn't the point, I simply have curiosities about fairness. This angle about sports is the only place where I have questions. Otherwise I am all for inclusion. It's 2024. Live and let live. And not to say you aren't for inclusion, but it's a significant part of the political discourse - particularly in the US but by extension here - to the point laws are being passed by right wing politicians. It's so little an issue compared to other things but takes up significant time. Even here as an off topic thread it generates discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: If anything, I would think that this talk of "parental rights" is the convergence from two angles - those who abdicated their rights and now seek to overcompensate, as well as those who seek to have absolute control over others - trying to take over the narrative of how their rights have somehow been unjustly stripped by "duh gubbermint" and/or "duh evil teacherz" (they haven't and they can't) and implement their view of the world of absolute control over kids (and in the process, actually and quite ironically surrendering what rights they have to the government they claim had stifled their rights). But hey, "muh freedumbs, muh rights!" I take a less charitable view, TBH.... I think a lot of it is based in bigotry. People will tell you "it's about the kids!", or "parental rights", but IMHO, it's really about their own contempt for the LGTBQ community. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 As a social construct, have at it. Will defend their right to be who they want to be. For some folk, by simply existing and seeing them hold hands on the street, it constitutes 'shoving it down their throats', so gotta be vigilant about any attack on their rights. In a competitive sports setting, it's murkier for me, I lean on the side of having a third category, transgender, alongside male and female. In a medical situation where you are dying and your life depends on a proper diagnosis, you have to go by biological birth gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, RupertKBD said: I take a less charitable view, TBH.... I think a lot of it is based in bigotry. People will tell you "it's about the kids!", or "parental rights", but IMHO, it's really about their own contempt for the LGTBQ community. I would take it further. It's most likely an innate desire to assert their control over others because they are so self-centred that nothing is more important to them but to raise themselves by subjugating others. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 16 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I just read this. Didn't know anything about the Lia thomas thing. Or about this civil rights lawyer. Just posting for the sports part of this discussion. https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/sex-matters-why-transgender-athletes-must-not-compete-against-biological-females/ Inclusion and fairness are two vital values in the world of sports. Transgender women should be allowed to compete in women’s athletics, so long as these individuals can show that they’ve mitigated the athletic advantages that come with male puberty. As an Olympic champion and as a civil rights lawyer, I can assure you that there was nothing fair about transgender woman Lia Thomas competing for the University of Pennsylvania in NCAA swimming. Worse, her domination of the ‘women’s sports’ category has done nothing to engender greater empathy for inclusive practices throughout society for the trans community. Googling 'transgender athletes' shows that for every article like that there is another saying just the opposite. Just like ITT there are a lot of differing opinions out there. It looks like things are going this way: Pendulum swings towards tighter measures against transgender athletes Heading into 2024, there has been a seismic shift in the sporting landscape for trans athletes, with the pendulum swinging back toward tighter measures on a divisive issue. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/pendulum-swings-tighter-measures-transgender-athletes-rcna131461 I found this article interesting: Expert: Science won’t resolve debates about trans athletes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 18 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I just read this. Didn't know anything about the Lia thomas thing. Or about this civil rights lawyer. Just posting for the sports part of this discussion. https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/sex-matters-why-transgender-athletes-must-not-compete-against-biological-females/ Inclusion and fairness are two vital values in the world of sports. Transgender women should be allowed to compete in women’s athletics, so long as these individuals can show that they’ve mitigated the athletic advantages that come with male puberty. As an Olympic champion and as a civil rights lawyer, I can assure you that there was nothing fair about transgender woman Lia Thomas competing for the University of Pennsylvania in NCAA swimming. Worse, her domination of the ‘women’s sports’ category has done nothing to engender greater empathy for inclusive practices throughout society for the trans community. And my thought on that is how can you prove one way or the other? Should Lisa Thomas or others be penalized in absence of proof? The article stating Thomas has dominated women's swimming leads me to believe there is more opinion than fact there, as she definitely has not dominated since transitioning. Here's the other side of that coin: cis-women who happen to be taller, faster, stronger, etc. are far more affected by this discussion because people suspect them of being trans or doing something illegal to enhance their performance than any instance of a trans athlete beating someone out for a spot. The Twitter thread I'm posting is well worth the read and shows the real impact of the vitriol often created by this discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhdlois Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 There’s never been so much division since they pushed the inclusion agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, DSVII said: As a social construct, have at it. Will defend their right to be who they want to be. For some folk, by simply existing and seeing them hold hands on the street, it constitutes 'shoving it down their throats', so gotta be vigilant about any attack on their rights. In a competitive sports setting, it's murkier for me, I lean on the side of having a third category, transgender, alongside male and female. In a medical situation where you are dying and your life depends on a proper diagnosis, you have to go by biological birth gender. For the sports third category suggestion, extrapolate that thought out to the Olympics. Considering transgender people are such a small part of any population, and elite athletes are also such a small percentage of any population, if your tried to have one as a subset of the other, there wouldn't be enough people to have an Olympic event for almost all the sports at an elite level, let alone qualifiers to decide who gets to go. We've all seen the events where some country gets an athlete through that isn't nearly as strong as the rest of the competitors. It's a great story to see their journey and a moment of pride that people can compete, but imagine all the competitors at that level? That just wouldn't meet the standard. And even if one or two can compete at a reasonable level, it doesn't mean that separate category is really worthy of being singled out. And the other side of that Eddie the Eagle type Olympic story is you'd essentially be denying a trans person their chance to try and qualify to make it to that level against the top competition in their field. For the last part of your post, that's not entirely correct. Hormone therapies, gender reassignment surgeries, and other things can affect how medical treatment is offered to a person regardless of their assigned at birth sex. As with many fields, medicine is largely developed on a binary outlook - in this case, treat someone as though they are male or female. But that doesn't apply in a lot of cases even outside of the trans discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 17 minutes ago, elvis15 said: The article stating Thomas has dominated women's swimming leads me to believe there is more opinion than fact there The percentages presented in the article seem more than just opinion to me. I guess the idea of the all natural benefits being removed with 2.5 years of hormone therapy is in question in my mind. But there are layers to this onion and I agree that the sports part of the overall issue, is minor. That said, I cant say I believe true fairness is being properly addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 24 minutes ago, Redhdlois said: There’s never been so much division since they pushed the inclusion agenda. Who are 'they'? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, elvis15 said: For the sports third category suggestion, extrapolate that thought out to the Olympics. Considering transgender people are such a small part of any population, and elite athletes are also such a small percentage of any population, if your tried to have one as a subset of the other, there wouldn't be enough people to have an Olympic event for almost all the sports at an elite level, let alone qualifiers to decide who gets to go. We've all seen the events where some country gets an athlete through that isn't nearly as strong as the rest of the competitors. It's a great story to see their journey and a moment of pride that people can compete, but imagine all the competitors at that level? That just wouldn't meet the standard. And even if one or two can compete at a reasonable level, it doesn't mean that separate category is really worthy of being singled out. And the other side of that Eddie the Eagle type Olympic story is you'd essentially be denying a trans person their chance to try and qualify to make it to that level against the top competition in their field. For the last part of your post, that's not entirely correct. Hormone therapies, gender reassignment surgeries, and other things can affect how medical treatment is offered to a person regardless of their assigned at birth sex. As with many fields, medicine is largely developed on a binary outlook - in this case, treat someone as though they are male or female. But that doesn't apply in a lot of cases even outside of the trans discussion. Athletes, yep I can see that, like I said I don't have the perfect answer so it is still murky to me. Medical wise, I can agree to an extent, sure it's not black and white, but say if they identify as say 100% female, the transition doesn't make that an absolute fact biologically, it's not ideal to prescribe treatment based on what they are assigning themselves when the doctor has to go by the science of what the hormone therapies and surgeries did to their bodies. This is just my take from an anecdote from my friend who works as an MD at one of the US's best hospitals, where sometimes the correct diagnosis/treatment is delayed because of the patient's refusal for treatment or medication that diverges from what they identify as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 28 minutes ago, Redhdlois said: There’s never been so much division since they pushed the inclusion agenda. The real agenda here is the $$ from the clicks that feed the negative feedback loop algorithm that is telling everyone the world is going to shit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: We'd have to have an honest assessment of it. Do people still fall in a usual range of performance after transitioning? It certainly won't be figured out on social media. I just think it's funny that all these defenders(not putting you in that camp btw) come out for this issue, but couldn't care less about other things like pay equity. Like many things in life..it varies per case. There are a few examples in sports of a trans women competing that resulted in absolute ridiculous outcomes. Lia Thomas has been mentioned....a very poorly rated swimmer as a male and then transitions mid college and sets women's records. By several accounts she was in the female locker room pre meets dong out and making a lot of the other competitors uncomfortable. Now I can't recall if it was via behaviour or just them being put off by a trans female in the room. But a 6 foot plus Lia was racing people a foot smaller. Frame matters A LOT in swimming. Then look up Falon Fox who competed in MMA...now that was absolute bullshit. I think you have seen enough of my post history to know I am not hating on any group except Flames fans but transwomen in sports is an issue as far as integrity of sport goes with no clear or comfortable solution right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 50 minutes ago, DSVII said: Athletes, yep I can see that, like I said I don't have the perfect answer so it is still murky to me. Medical wise, I can agree to an extent, sure it's not black and white, but say if they identify as say 100% female, the transition doesn't make that an absolute fact biologically, it's not ideal to prescribe treatment based on what they are assigning themselves when the doctor has to go by the science of what the hormone therapies and surgeries did to their bodies. This is just my take from an anecdote from my friend who works as an MD at one of the US's best hospitals, where sometimes the correct diagnosis/treatment is delayed because of the patient's refusal for treatment or medication that diverges from what they identify as. A lot of minorities have distrust of doctors and hospitals based on a long history of mistreatment. Women were often treated for "hysteria" or emotional issues rather than realizing actual issues were present. Black people have suffered through experiments like the Tuskegee syphilis study and James Marion Sims performing surgeries on black women without anesthesia. Trans people also have a dubious history with medicine, so I understand the distrust even if a doctor does have their best interests and is properly diagnosing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 59 minutes ago, Gnarcore said: Like many things in life..it varies per case. There are a few examples in sports of a trans women competing that resulted in absolute ridiculous outcomes. Lia Thomas has been mentioned....a very poorly rated swimmer as a male and then transitions mid college and sets women's records. By several accounts she was in the female locker room pre meets dong out and making a lot of the other competitors uncomfortable. Now I can't recall if it was via behaviour or just them being put off by a trans female in the room. But a 6 foot plus Lia was racing people a foot smaller. Frame matters A LOT in swimming. Then look up Falon Fox who competed in MMA...now that was absolute bullshit. I think you have seen enough of my post history to know I am not hating on any group except Flames fans but transwomen in sports is an issue as far as integrity of sport goes with no clear or comfortable solution right now. If there's a comfort in the locker room issue, have a space set aside for her. And there's no issue with height, since Thomas is about the same height as Katie Ledecky, one of the greatest women swimmers who people have confused as a man when given a picture of her. Where does the physical advantage argument stop? Micheal Phelps has a longer wingspan and doesn't produce as much lactic acid as other people, which gives him an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrigal77 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 18 hours ago, Bob Long said: sure, why not? its only an issue apparently pre-transition: see: https://www.bbc.com/sport/46453958 So I suppose for the narrow situation of someone pre-transition, maybe thats a place where they'd have to still compete in their birth gender. Most sports also have weight classes, or other categorizations. Seems to me like there would be a natural place for a person to slot in. Give me a break. Mens muscle mass is different. Bone structure, etc.. This is insanity. Just stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Good thing they aren't men after they've transitioned, but rather women (since it always comes back to the specific of trans women vs cis women). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, madrigal77 said: Give me a break. Mens muscle mass is different. Bone structure, etc.. This is insanity. Just stop. Got a source to back up your feelings that you're trying to disguise as facts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Vanderhoek Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 hours ago, Bob Long said: But is this really happening? Or is it one of these social media arguments that has few real instances? I mean end of the day in a competition people will compete against each other and transitioned or not someone has to come out on top. There appears to be a couple dozen cases where a transgender person has won a competition and the question of fairness has been raised due to the suggested advantage of a male versus female in sport. It is not always quite as simple as male versus female as many institutions have in place time frames where trans persons have to be on for example hormone therapies etc before competing to lower testosterone levels and other for example. So while the question of fairness is raised and is legitimate, there are already some policies in place to help lessen any advantages and it should be noted that such policies are waiting on more scientific data and studies to fine tune this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 It always evolves into a discussion on trans women in female competitive sports. I'd wager this is because it's the only area where the anti-trans crowd sort of has a point. 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrigal77 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 5 minutes ago, King Heffy said: Got a source to back up your feelings that you're trying to disguise as facts? Common sense. All of human history. The fact that we separate woman's and mens sports for fairness. I shouldn't even have to post a link because anyone with a functioning brain should know all this, but if you REALLY need it, here you go. https://fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/#:~:text=Females generally have 40% less,HAVE LOWER BODY STRENGTH ADVANTAGE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, 112 said: It always evolves into a discussion on trans women in female competitive sports. I'd wager this is because it's the only area where the anti-trans crowd sort of has a point. Or more that arguing the reverse would show how ridiculous the argument is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, madrigal77 said: Common sense. All of human history. The fact that we separate woman's and mens sports for fairness. I shouldn't even have to post a link because anyone with a functioning brain should know all this, but if you REALLY need it, here you go. https://fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/#:~:text=Females generally have 40% less,HAVE LOWER BODY STRENGTH ADVANTAGE. That's quite the one sided website. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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