OMG Gender Diversity! Thread

[Sapper]

Didn't folks get the message ? PP moved on from trans issues to carbon tax...... And just like that the anti sogi rallies ended and the axe the tax rallies.began

 

And let's be equal here ... If a parent wants to invoke religious grounds to refuse their teen medical options ... Let them demonstrate that they really have that faith and actually attend that church .... The same measure a parent may have to provide in refusing blood for their teen during surgery etc 

 

Parents don't own there teens ... They have a duty of care to their teens 

 

I'm not sure the exact age they must be in BC but it would take a serious medical issue to start at age 7 .... Not sure how this became a discussion point of 7 yr olds 

[Sharpshooter]

4 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

My best friend is a trans dude. 
Ive known him for 15 years, and I’ve only ever known him as a man.

Raddest fucking guy ever.  
If anyone has anything stupid to say about trans folks, I’ve always been more than happy to slap them in the ear.  
Yes, if you look at TikTok or Libsoftiktok, you are going to think they are fucked, but they are showing you those people for their specific agenda.  
Trans folks tend to be the strongest and most thoughtful and interesting people. 
They have been through a mental mind fuck and probably a lot of unnecessary abuse.  You gain a lot of personality when you grow up like that.  
 

Having said all that. 
 

First,
Leaning kids in that direction, and giving medication before 16 years old is fucking insane and shouldn’t happen.   
Period. 
My kid is 7.  She has had little boyfriends.  She has told me her and her little friend Bella are ‘in lesbians together’.  
She wanted to be a pilot. And a teacher.  
And a fucking robot princess.  
No way in hell I’m giving her hormones because of what she feels she wants to be/do this week.  

Second,

If you were born with a dick, you don’t play with women in sports. 
Straight up dangerous.  
Remember that trans woman who was in MMA and broke that woman’s orbital? 
She said she has never fought against power like that before. She never right away she was fucked and she got seriously injured.  
 

You can’t give them drugs before puberty as they aren’t mentally capable of making that huge of a decision. 
You can’t allow a trans man who went through male puberty to compete with women.  
Both those go together.  
 

I have zero hate in my heart and am 100% in support of people living how they want to live.  (Once they are old enough to make their own decisions). 
 

[Pianoman]

14 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Yea I do get suspicious when people trot out "the science" in these threads.

Sounds like you just want to keep your head in the sand and plead ignorance. I linked a scientific study. Here is a second one from a sports medicine journal:

 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

You say you are sceptical of the science, but you are ok just thinking they don’t have an advantage? Just basing it off of feelings? You should read them and see where is the point you get ‘suspicious’. 
l totally agree that scientific studies aren’t 100% reliable and need to be taken with a grain of salt. But something like this is actually quantifiable. 

 

[Pianoman]

10 hours ago, elvis15 said:

If there's a comfort in the locker room issue, have a space set aside for her. And there's no issue with height, since Thomas is about the same height as Katie Ledecky, one of the greatest women swimmers who people have confused as a man when given a picture of her.

 

Where does the physical advantage argument stop? Micheal Phelps has a longer wingspan and doesn't produce as much lactic acid as other people, which gives him an advantage.

 

 

 

I feel like this is all missing the point. It’s not about how tall they are or even if they ‘look’ like women. It’s more about the non visible/hardly visible advantages such as muscle growth, bone density, ligaments, etc, and many other things. We shouldn’t be judging someone based on how they look, if they ‘look’ like they belong. That’s a really dangerous game to play. It should be on if they have a level playing field with everyone else. And in the case of competing against trans athletes, women don’t. 
 

Yes some women have advantages over other women based on size, height, etc. But those advantages are still inherent to women, rather than the advantages trans athletes bring. It’s like if someone is trying to find the largest apple ever grown, some trees will have an advantage to producing bigger ones. But if you bring in a small watermelon and paint it red and try to enter it in the largest apple competition….. 

[D.B Cooper]

9 hours ago, King Heffy said:

That decision should be made by medical professionals.

Disagree

[D.B Cooper]

8 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

K

Edited March 28 by D.B Cooper

[Alflives]

11 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

My best friend is a trans dude. 
Ive known him for 15 years, and I’ve only ever known him as a man.

Raddest fucking guy ever.  
If anyone has anything stupid to say about trans folks, I’ve always been more than happy to slap them in the ear.  
Yes, if you look at TikTok or Libsoftiktok, you are going to think they are fucked, but they are showing you those people for their specific agenda.  
Trans folks tend to be the strongest and most thoughtful and interesting people. 
They have been through a mental mind fuck and probably a lot of unnecessary abuse.  You gain a lot of personality when you grow up like that.  
 

Having said all that. 
 

First,
Leaning kids in that direction, and giving medication before 16 years old is fucking insane and shouldn’t happen.   
Period. 
My kid is 7.  She has had little boyfriends.  She has told me her and her little friend Bella are ‘in lesbians together’.  
She wanted to be a pilot. And a teacher.  
And a fucking robot princess.  
No way in hell I’m giving her hormones because of what she feels she wants to be/do this week.  

Second,

If you were born with a dick, you don’t play with women in sports. 
Straight up dangerous.  
Remember that trans woman who was in MMA and broke that woman’s orbital? 
She said she has never fought against power like that before. She never right away she was fucked and she got seriously injured.  
 

You can’t give them drugs before puberty as they aren’t mentally capable of making that huge of a decision. 
You can’t allow a trans man who went through male puberty to compete with women.  
Both those go together.  
 

I have zero hate in my heart and am 100% in support of people living how they want to live.  (Once they are old enough to make their own decisions). 
 

What’s the age of consent? Is it 18? When can kids get into pubs? Is that 18 too? Vote? 18? Maybe 18 is a good age for kids to start that hormone stuff if that’s important for them? 
Really isn’t our purpose to make babies and keep the species going? Don’t know what % of people choose to not be a parent but the people switching genders can’t be more than those who are still in tact but don’t have kids. 

[StrayDog]

I see lots of people discussing male to female athletes. What about those who have transitioned from female to male and compete? Athletes like Schuyler Bailar or Chris Mosier?

[D.B Cooper]

38 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What’s the age of consent? Is it 18? When can kids get into pubs? Is that 18 too? Vote? 18? Maybe 18 is a good age for kids to start that hormone stuff if that’s important for them? 
Really isn’t our purpose to make babies and keep the species going? Don’t know what % of people choose to not be a parent but the people switching genders can’t be more than those who are still in tact but don’t have kids. 

I don’t know, but IMO, if we don’t trust you to drive, or even drink a certain beverage, how can you make a decision to change your body?   
You need your parents permission to get your ears pierced. 
 

IMO, live like you feel, but keep medicine out of it until they are old enough to make a life changing decision 

[D.B Cooper]

7 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

I see lots of people discussing male to female athletes. What about those who have transitioned from female to male and compete? Athletes like Schuyler Bailar or Chris Mosier?

Lol!  
You don’t seem many who try or even want to compete against men.  
I guess when you started out as the smaller/weaker body, you can see how absurd it is to compete against the opposite sex, as opposed to the other way around where you now get to be a man’s body fighting women.  

[Heretic]

16 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Ok? This but you commented on something as fact that doesn’t actually happen. It is mindless misinformation with zero benefit to being spread. 

 

Did I say it was a fact? I said "I heard"

[StrayDog]

21 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

Lol!  
You don’t seem many who try or even want to compete against men.  
I guess when you started out as the smaller/weaker body, you can see how absurd it is to compete against the opposite sex, as opposed to the other way around where you now get to be a man’s body fighting women.  

Not true. They are out there. You just don't see stories about them as often because - as you just did - people downplay it as "absurd". There are female to male athletes out there and competing, and the two I referenced above did very well doing the absurd thing of competing against men. 

[D.B Cooper]

25 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Not true. They are out there. You just don't see stories about them as often because - as you just did - people downplay it as "absurd". There are female to male athletes out there and competing, and the two I referenced above did very well doing the absurd thing of competing against men. 

Sure are there.  Thats why I said you don’t see many.  
They are clearly out there, but you don’t see it close to as often. 
And of course you are going to see some successful. 
Some folks can do amazing shit.  

It also clearly depends on the sport.  
I think more of combat or contact type sports. That’s why I referred to them getting hurt.  
 

[Optimist Prime]

I know it is controversial, but

 

That is all.

[Bob Long]

9 hours ago, Pianoman said:

Sounds like you just want to keep your head in the sand and plead ignorance. I linked a scientific study. Here is a second one from a sports medicine journal:

 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

You say you are sceptical of the science, but you are ok just thinking they don’t have an advantage? Just basing it off of feelings? You should read them and see where is the point you get ‘suspicious’. 
l totally agree that scientific studies aren’t 100% reliable and need to be taken with a grain of salt. But something like this is actually quantifiable. 

 

 

Did you actually read the paper? 

[elvis15]

10 hours ago, Pianoman said:

I feel like this is all missing the point. It’s not about how tall they are or even if they ‘look’ like women. It’s more about the non visible/hardly visible advantages such as muscle growth, bone density, ligaments, etc, and many other things. We shouldn’t be judging someone based on how they look, if they ‘look’ like they belong. That’s a really dangerous game to play. It should be on if they have a level playing field with everyone else. And in the case of competing against trans athletes, women don’t. 
 

Yes some women have advantages over other women based on size, height, etc. But those advantages are still inherent to women, rather than the advantages trans athletes bring. It’s like if someone is trying to find the largest apple ever grown, some trees will have an advantage to producing bigger ones. But if you bring in a small watermelon and paint it red and try to enter it in the largest apple competition….. 

But that's why athletes like Lia Thomas had to wait two years since starting hormones and transitioning to compete. That waiting period for the hormones to have an effect actually lessened her muscle mass to more that of a woman's. Maybe some other things are still small advantages, but if it was that much of an advantage then she would have dominated early in the sport. Instead, she's known best for a 5th place tie that launched Riley Gains' right wing media career.

[Pianoman]

36 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

But that's why athletes like Lia Thomas had to wait two years since starting hormones and transitioning to compete. That waiting period for the hormones to have an effect actually lessened her muscle mass to more that of a woman's. Maybe some other things are still small advantages, but if it was that much of an advantage then she would have dominated early in the sport. Instead, she's known best for a 5th place tie that launched Riley Gains' right wing media career.

If you read the two articles I linked, you would see that trans athletes still have a physical advantage after 2 years. They always will, because the advantages happened during puberty that can’t become undone. It’s currently estimated that after 2 years trans athletes still have a 12 percent physical advantage. Which is huge at top level competitions, not fair at all. 
 

Edit: I should say UP to 12 percent physical advantage. It will of course vary among athletes, but thats the upper threshold 

Edited March 28 by Pianoman

[Pianoman]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Did you actually read the paper? 

Yes i’ve read many of them. Not completely start to end, but enough to understand the methodology and the focus of the study. 

[Gurn]

I know this is a sports site, however why does such an important topic degenerate into a 'unfair competitive  sports advantage' argument.?

This is such a small piece of the overall issues regarding trans- it feels like a deliberate diversion; to try and control the discussion.

 

People end up focusing on such a small, small part of an issue.

Maybe it is because there are still some small, small, people out there?

 

[Chicken.]

4 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I know this is a sports site, however why does such an important topic degenerate into a 'unfair competitive  sports advantage' argument.?

This is such a small piece of the overall issues regarding trans- it feels like a deliberate diversion; to try and control the discussion.

 

People end up focusing on such a small, small part of an issue.

Maybe it is because there are still some small, small, people out there?

 

Maybe because that is the primary source of disagreement amongst folks?   And yes as you mention most people that come here are sports oriented and passionate about it.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Pianoman said:

Yes i’ve read many of them. Not completely start to end, but enough to understand the methodology and the focus of the study. 

 

So on the particular one you quoted, what relevance did it have to people who started transitioning in their teens?

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, Pianoman said:

Yes i’ve read many of them. Not completely start to end, but enough to understand the methodology and the focus of the study. 

Did you read this one?

 

Expert: Science won’t resolve debates about trans athletes

https://newsroom.uw.edu/blog/expert-science-wont-resolve-debates-about-trans-athletes

 

IMHO it accurately describes what we know and what we don't know.  It also sys this:

 

This is that social justice issue where science is just not going to satisfy everybody on this. I worry that scientific facts will be used to bludgeon each other and that we won't come to a consensus because our feelings are so heightened.

[Satchmo]

14 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I know this is a sports site, however why does such an important topic degenerate into a 'unfair competitive  sports advantage' argument.?

This is such a small piece of the overall issues regarding trans- it feels like a deliberate diversion; to try and control the discussion.

 

People end up focusing on such a small, small part of an issue.

Maybe it is because there are still some small, small, people out there?

 

Sports are the one thing that can be debated without having to say out loud that you are anti, pro, or ambivalent -trans.  You just have to be a sports fan.

It's also a pretty grey area and one that even a trans supporter like myself has yet to come to a full decision on.

[Pianoman]

23 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Did you read this one?

 

Expert: Science won’t resolve debates about trans athletes

https://newsroom.uw.edu/blog/expert-science-wont-resolve-debates-about-trans-athletes

 

IMHO it accurately describes what we know and what we don't know.  It also sys this:

 

This is that social justice issue where science is just not going to satisfy everybody on this. I worry that scientific facts will be used to bludgeon each other and that we won't come to a consensus because our feelings are so heightened.

This article basically supports what I was saying though. And it’s just an article, no facts are even presented. It says that if a man has gone through puberty then it is hard to undo that advantage, and there is not a lot of research about it yet. But as I presented, there is some research, which shows they have advantage. I don’t even understand why this is such a big deal. It’s not like banning them from women’s competitions is saying they aren’t women, just that they have an unfair advantage. 
 

There’s a few people on here saying that this is the one area anti-trans people are really pushing, so wouldn’t you think the best solution is to actually not have trans women competing against women, then the anti-trans people won’t have much argument left? I don’t want to get lumped into the anti-trans group, I’m just really big into rules and fairness and facts lol. So I feel passionate about this. 

[Pianoman]

32 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So on the particular one you quoted, what relevance did it have to people who started transitioning in their teens?

If a person has fully transitioned before puberty has started, then according to current research, there is no know advantage (which I actually stated in my original post). Once puberty begins to occur, they start to have advantages.