OMG Gender Diversity! Thread

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Pianoman said:

This article basically supports what I was saying though. And it’s just an article, no facts are even presented. It says that if a man has gone through puberty then it is hard to undo that advantage, and there is not a lot of research about it yet. But as I presented, there is some research, which shows they have advantage. I don’t even understand why this is such a big deal. It’s not like banning them from women’s competitions is saying they aren’t women, just that they have an unfair advantage. 
 

There’s a few people on here saying that this is the one area anti-trans people are really pushing, so wouldn’t you think the best solution is to actually not have trans women competing against women, then the anti-trans people won’t have much argument left? I don’t want to get lumped into the anti-trans group, I’m just really big into rules and fairness and facts lol. So I feel passionate about this. 

Funny, but I think the article basically supports what I have been saying.   Maybe both you and I have preconceived  ideas.

[Maninthebox]

I'd suggest people read up on John Money and David Reimer. I won't add links, as I feel like there is a tendency to bias in the articles people choose to... research.

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Maninthebox said:

I'd suggest people read up on John Money and David Reimer. I won't add links, as I feel like there is a tendency to bias in the articles people choose to... research.

There is a bias in what search engines show us.   They have all learned what it is we like to see.   So, they are biased based on our biases.

[Maninthebox]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

There is a bias in what search engines show us.   They have all learned what it is we like to see.   So, they are biased based on our biases.

 

Agreed, but in this day and age I cannot reasonably suggest people go read a *gasp* book 

[Bob Long]

33 minutes ago, Pianoman said:

If a person has fully transitioned before puberty has started, then according to current research, there is no know advantage (which I actually stated in my original post). Once puberty begins to occur, they start to have advantages.

 

Buts lets stick to the paper your quoted. What do you think its saying?

[Pianoman]

55 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Funny, but I think the article basically supports what I have been saying.   Maybe both you and I have preconceived  ideas.

Hmm or maybe our thinking is more similar than we realize haha. 
 

I pretty much don’t out any stock in articles though, it’s just someone’s opinion. Which can be interesting to read sometimes, but it’s nit factual. 

[Pianoman]

32 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Buts lets stick to the paper your quoted. What do you think its saying?

It is saying that even with taking estrogen and other hormones post transition, it still provides physical advantages well after the 1 year threshold required by the IOC and World Athletics. It focused primarily on endurance. 
 

It’s saying that pretty clearly. You can read it if you want. 

Edited March 28 by Pianoman
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[StrayDog]

4 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

Sure are there.  Thats why I said you don’t see many.  
They are clearly out there, but you don’t see it close to as often. 
And of course you are going to see some successful. 
Some folks can do amazing shit.  

It also clearly depends on the sport.  
I think more of combat or contact type sports. That’s why I referred to them getting hurt.  
 

So you're ok with trans athletes competing with genders they identify with, if the sport is one with less physicality? Not judging on it; I want to make sure I understand your position.

[Satchmo]

9 minutes ago, Pianoman said:

Hmm or maybe our thinking is more similar than we realize haha. 
 

I pretty much don’t out any stock in articles though, it’s just someone’s opinion. Which can be interesting to read sometimes, but it’s nit factual. 

I won't comment on our similarities beyond sharing an interest in the Canucks.    Let's see some more posts.

 

I don't see much difference between the paper you posted and the article I posted.   Both contain opinions from medical professionals.  

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, Maninthebox said:

 

Agreed, but in this day and age I cannot reasonably suggest people go read a *gasp* book 

Which book did you read on this subject? I'm familiar with this subject, but haven't read any published literature on it yet.

[Maninthebox]

12 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Which book did you read on this subject? I'm familiar with this subject, but haven't read any published literature on it yet.

 

As Nature Made Him, John Colapinto. And I haven't finished reading it.

 

My comment about books was meant ironically, however.

[MeanSeanBean]

5 minutes ago, Maninthebox said:

 

As Nature Made Him, John Colapinto. And I haven't finished reading it.

 

My comment about books was meant ironically, however.

Oh, I get it. I'm familiar with that book and his work, but haven't read it. I assume it just retells the story mostly since he's a journalist and fictional writer, not a researcher.

 

What are your thoughts on the subject then, since your mentioned this case in particular?

 

[Bob Long]

30 minutes ago, Pianoman said:

It is saying that even with taking estrogen and other hormones post transition, it still provides physical advantages well after the 1 year threshold required by the IOC and World Athletics. It focused primarily on endurance. 
 

It’s saying that pretty clearly. You can read it if you want. 

 

Its a review of people in the US Air Force, average age of 26. It suggest that hormone suppression might need more than 12 months, but its a very limited study, its not a conclusion of anything. 

 

Its important to remember that 1 paper on its own isn't a scientific conclusion of anything. 

 

[Maninthebox]

14 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Oh, I get it. I'm familiar with that book and his work, but haven't read it. I assume it just retells the story mostly since he's a journalist and fictional writer, not a researcher.

 

What are your thoughts on the subject then, since your mentioned this case in particular?

 

 

About that particular situation I won't express my thoughts, for the same reason I won't suggest potentially biased links. It is a horrific story, I will say that much. I'll also say that while there are possible conclusions one might come to, depending on how they view the overarching trans gender discussion, I did not have such ulterior motives. I'm genuinely interested in the topic, but I am not personally invested in the debate. If that makes sense...

 

As to the book, thus far it seems as you surmise. I had learned of the case and wanted to learn more, essentially. I can't say whether the book will really offer that, at this point.

[MeanSeanBean]

@Maninthebox

 

Seems kinda strange you would bring it up as a talking point if you have no opinion on the subject of your own. But that's ok, I'd like to share my own.

 

My opinion is it should have never happened. It was a tragic story that lead to medical experimentation, without consent, and led to someone losing their life. 

 

One of my main take aways is the trauma that can be caused by forcing a person to live in an identity that is not their own. Wether that's gender, sexual orientation, or whatever it is that doesn't allow a person to live their truth.

 

Forcing a person to live an identify that doesn't match their personal perception can lead to tragedy. In this case it was due to poor judgement calls by doctors, but you could make the same argument about a Trans person not being accepted as their gender differing from their biological at birth sexuality. I feel this is reinforced by the overwhelming data we see within LGBTQ around mental health crisis.

 

This story reinforces my believes that's it's important that we allow people live their truths, as long as it's not directly harmful to others, of course. If a person grows up not identifying with their biological sexual identity, it's important they feel free to live as whatever gender that allows them to live as stress-free as possible, or that persons life, like David's, could end tragically.

Edited March 28 by MeanSeanBean

[Maninthebox]

@MeanSeanBean

 

Thank you for sharing your views. I apologize if my suggestion came off as strange.

 

[Pianoman]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Its a review of people in the US Air Force, average age of 26. It suggest that hormone suppression might need more than 12 months, but its a very limited study, its not a conclusion of anything. 

 

Its important to remember that 1 paper on its own isn't a scientific conclusion of anything. 

 

Yes it says on average after a year there is an 9 percent physical advantage. Which is huge. I agree one paper on its own means nothing, that’s why I sent a couple. There are also others there. But there is literally no peer reviewed research that shows that trans athletes do NOT have advantage. Any research shows an advantage, even if it’s limited or uncertain how much. 

[D.B Cooper]

1 hour ago, StrayDog said:

So you're ok with trans athletes competing with genders they identify with, if the sport is one with less physicality? Not judging on it; I want to make sure I understand your position.

If it is a woman’s sport, I don’t believe someone with a man’s body should be able to compete. 
If it’s a man’s sport, and someone with a woman’s body wants to out themselves at risk, that’s up to them. 
Again, I’m thinking contact/combat style sports.  
I don’t see why they don’t just have mixed curling all the time.  lol 

[MeanSeanBean]

25 minutes ago, Maninthebox said:

@MeanSeanBean

 

Thank you for sharing your views. I apologize if my suggestion came off as strange.

 

No worries, I just thought you were opening up a dialogue since you specifically brought it up. Just wasn't expecting you to bring it up if you didn't actually have any input on it. Seemed strange to me is all.

[Maninthebox]

13 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

No worries, I just thought you were opening up a dialogue since you specifically brought it up. Just wasn't expecting you to bring it up if you didn't actually have any input on it. Seemed strange to me is all.

 

I'm still learning about it eh, haven't fully formed an opinion worth expressing.

[MeanSeanBean]

11 minutes ago, Maninthebox said:

 

I'm still learning about it eh, haven't fully formed an opinion worth expressing.

That's fair, I think everyone could benefit from that advice.

[StrayDog]

31 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

If it is a woman’s sport, I don’t believe someone with a man’s body should be able to compete. 
If it’s a man’s sport, and someone with a woman’s body wants to out themselves at risk, that’s up to them. 
Again, I’m thinking contact/combat style sports.  
I don’t see why they don’t just have mixed curling all the time.  lol 

You're thinking contact sports, but there are a ton of sports that don't involve contact. You're against transgender people competing there as well? Including female to male transgender athletes?

 

[D.B Cooper]

51 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

You're thinking contact sports, but there are a ton of sports that don't involve contact. You're against transgender people competing there as well? Including female to male transgender athletes?

 

I think if there is a physical advantage, it’s a no go. 
Other than that, if the sport is cool with it, let’s get playing.  
My opinion is purely safety and fairness based.  
Like I said, I spend a lot of time with trans folks and am as supportive as can be towards them. 
I just don’t want to see someone get seriously injured because we were more concerned about feelings than safety 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Pianoman said:

Yes it says on average after a year there is an 9 percent physical advantage. Which is huge. I agree one paper on its own means nothing, that’s why I sent a couple. There are also others there. But there is literally no peer reviewed research that shows that trans athletes do NOT have advantage. Any research shows an advantage, even if it’s limited or uncertain how much. 

 

Only in running speed tho. With such a narrow study group not sure you can reach anything conclusive here 

[Pianoman]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Only in running speed tho. With such a narrow study group not sure you can reach anything conclusive here 

In this one paper we were referencing it is talking about push-ups and sit-ups as well, primarily in regard to endurance rather than explosive power (not that there isn’t a different in explosive power, they just didn’t aim to look at that)
 

Regardless, it just makes sense to not allow biological males to compete with females. At the very least until there is absolute proof they don’t have an advantage in a certain activity. Sports isn’t divided by ‘gender’, it’s divided by ‘sex’. Changing genders to try to resemble the opposite sex still doesn’t change your biology completely no matter how hard one tries. It might change it enough to live a normal content life as woman after, but when it comes to being an elite athlete even a small advantage is a big advantage (if that makes sense).
 

It just seems naive to dismiss all research as vague or inconclusive and just decide based on feelings, especially when it’s apparent that it is an issue.

 

If someone argues, well it hardly ever happens that a trans-woman wins an event (even though I would disagree with that), does that mean that it is RIGHT? There are rules in place that prevent low occurrence things from happening everywhere, should we get rid of those rules just because those scenarios don’t happen too frequently? It’s a terrible argument. (This isn’t aimed at you Bob, I don’t remember you saying that. Just aimed at whoever thinks that).

 

As a final note, I was also not a fan of Oscar Pistorius competing with his fancy prosthetic leg. Since there was the potential for him to have an unfair advantage over the others, but there wasn’t any research or proof either way. I was pretty alone in that opinion haha, so maybe I am just a bit more strict on fairness and an even playing field than other people. 

Edited March 28 by Pianoman
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