[GDT] Vegas @ Vancouver - Monday, April 8th - 7pt/10et - SNP, 650 - Rogers Arena - Vancouver, B.C.

[Taphouse Canuck]

18 hours ago, Nucks780 said:

Phx scored 7 vs vegas. Surely we can score  on vegas with better talent.

Thompson looked dogshit in goal for that game, let's hope he's in net and not Hill

[The Aquaman]

5 minutes ago, OldFaithfulcap said:

 

All sexy tonight, jt sexy drag

 

LOL

[Chickenspear]

3 minutes ago, Taphouse Canuck said:

Thompson looked dogshit in goal for that game, let's hope he's in net and not Hill

Hill's injured. Day-to-day.

[Coconuts]

45 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Good point. Yeah, I like Raty and he's having a good year. D Petey and Silovs too, but they are still long shots. Hoping Silovs has a great game tonight.

 

 

Yeah, I always knew they would trade the first but I agree it's too early. It sucks more that Lindholm hasn't been a success yet and we probably can't re-sign him. I was alright with it though just in the sense that the team deserved it. Target could have been better perhaps.

 

I'm not down on the job management has done or prospects we have in any way and I love having the Sedin's and company working with them. I got this wrong last time but I think @Gurn or @Coconuts pointed out how many picks Dallas has kept and used compared to us. That's how they unearth gems every once in awhile.

 

David Poile (24 years) is one guy that comes to mind that had been with Nashville all the way and just retired last year and handed the reigns to Trotz. I would love it if they eventually took over!

 

 

Yeah I wouldn't say 'no depth'. That's not what I meant but not quality great depth like Dallas has. Outside of the two I mentioned the best for any of those players is tertiary depth. McWard, Hirose, Karlsson and Alriksson are super long shots that most likely never do anything. D-Petey, and Bains are possible bottom of the line-up guys, as is Raty, but those three are not likely scoring more than a handful of goals in a season. I like Mynio a heck of a lot (my Darkhorse favorite pick) but he's a rather long shot to play as well.

 

Nothing at all like Harley(15G), Lundkvist (2G, trade), Robertson(27G), Johnston (31G) , Stankhoven(24G/82), Oettinger(32W). And that's in addition to Heiskanen, Hintz, and throw in guys like Marchment (UFA), and Steel (UFA), who profile more like our players. 

 

That's 101 goals from young drafted players. Currently the crop you mentioned is at 0 and I would say 30-40 combined from our players is incredibly lofty, and that's likely only if Lekk can score 30 or more.

 

I should rephrase. We have depth unlike the last 15 years but it isn't anywhere near Dallas depth.

 

Vancouver and Dallas's philosophy haven't been the same, Dallas generally prioritizes using their own picks and that's why they've been able to find, develop, utilize, and trade good prospects. 

 

I've been encouraged by this management's drafting thus far, but I'm hoping they do a better job of retaining and using their picks going forward. That's not just been an issue for this management group though. 

 

Since 2000 the Canucks haven't had a 1st round pick in 2002, 2010, 2020,or 2021. Soon to include 2024. Lot of misses throughout those years, but drafting and development have long been issues. Roughly on par with Dallas keeping their 1sts.

 

It's the 2nd round picks where things get quite ugly though. We didn't pick a player in the 2nd round in 2000, 2001, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2022, 2023, and soon to include 2024. This franchise has consistently frittered away 2nd rounders over the last 24 years, 13 drafts without a 2nd. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

On 3/18/2024 at 4:51 PM, Coconuts said:

 

That will forever be a gripe of mine until we change the narrative 

 

I'll admit I was a bit skeptical of Rutherford and Allvin at the beginning but they've generally made good moves thus far, I'd like to see them emulate the Dallas Stars more when it comes to draft picks though

 

I wish we had an organizational philosophy that better emphasized drafting, keeping picks, and development 

 

Drafting and development are things Dallas has prioritized seemingly forever, it's why there are where they are now, it's why they're such a good team 

 

Just as they appeared to be fading with Benn and Seguin they hit gold with Hintz, Robertson, Heiskanen, and Otter. Now they're seeing further success with guys like Johnston (23OA, 2021), Harley (18OA, 2019), Stankoven (47OA, 2021)

 

You can throw Grushnikov (48OA, 2021) in there too as he was a good enough prospect to help them reel in Tanev from Calgary

 

They never really bottomed out the way we did but they just keep managing to find players

 

I'll go back to 2000, nice round number, and take a look at how they've handled their top two picks 

 

The 2003, 2007, 2008, and 2023 drafts are the only drafts they haven't picked a player in the first round since 2000

 

The 2001, 2006, 2016, 2019, and 2020 drafts are the only drafts they haven't picked a player in the second round since 2000

 

Many of those years they have multiple 2nd round picks

 

Things will shift a little going forward, Dallas doesn't have a 2nd in this coming draft or the following, but it's smart use of picks is why they were able to get Tanev for Grushnikov (48OA) and a 2nd, which meant they could keep their 1st. Generally Dallas keeps their picks, but they managed to add a top 4RD for what they're hoping will be a cup run, and Tanev's exactly what they needed. 

 

We still have our 2025 1st and 2nd but given how we've been trading picks I'm not exactly optimistic about us keeping them. 

Edited April 8 by Coconuts

[RWMc1]

Go Canucks Go!!!!!

 

Vegas special rules? hope not

 

 

 

[Dr. Crossbar]

22 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Vancouver and Dallas's philosophy haven't been the same, Dallas generally prioritizes using their own picks and that's why they've been able to find, develop, utilize, and trade good prospects. 

 

I've been encouraged by this management's drafting thus far, but I'm hoping they do a better job of retaining and using their picks going forward. That's not just been an issue for this management group though. 

 

Since 2000 the Canucks haven't had a 1st round pick in 2002, 2010, 2020,or 2021. Soon to include 2024. Lot of misses throughout those years, but drafting and development have long been issues. Roughly on par with Dallas keeping their 1sts.

 

It's the 2nd round picks where things get quite ugly though. We didn't pick a player in the 2nd round in 2000, 2001, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2022, 2023, and soon to include 2024. This franchise has consistently frittered away 2nd rounders over the last 24 years, 13 drafts without a 2nd. 

 

This management's decision-making has been better than the previous regime's. That gives me hope. I agree, though, we need to start retaining those picks. It may be tough if they're going all in for this core's window without thinking about the next core.

 

We're only a little over two years into Allvin and this regime getting a handle on things, so I tend to think of this as Phase 1. What they have done across the board  and top to bottom in a short amount of time has been impressive. Going forward the rubber really hits the road.

 

The interesting thing as compared to the previous regime is that we're just entering our competitive window, which influences the drafting decisions and retention. So context and reasoning has been different. In some ways, makes it easier knowing what needs to be replaced. In other ways harder looking farther down the line at replacing key pieces while not drafting low given our window to compete.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9 by Dr. Crossbar

[Dom]

Going to throw the Burr jersey on tonight.... don't wear it often, 1-0 this year when it's on. 

[Heretic]

Wasn't Demko supposed to be back by now?

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, Future Considerations said:

 

Disagree for the most part as Abbotsford Canucks have a better record than the Texas Stars right now.  Dallas has drafted well, but Benn, Duchesne, Pavelski and more on that team are all aging out.  Hintz is already 27.   

 

Abbotsford is running a pretty good young line up right now, they have players.   Canucks may have the next Hintz in Raty who's only 21. 

 

I'd love a conference final of Van vs. Dal because the Canucks would win that.  

 

I think Vancouver looks set to contend for the next 5 years right now.  The OEL buyout means we get to try out our young players and find quality.  

 

Yes, we will try players out sure, but will they have success is the question?

 

Their AHL records right now though are irrelevant as Dallas has all these players in their line-up already, and for years to come. Raty has 18 goals in his second year, so sure he has a chance, but he sure doesn't look like Robertson, who had 25 in his first year of AHL, and has averaged 38 per 82 over his first 4 NHL seasons, or Johnston who jumped right into the NHL with 24 goals. Stankoven was on pace for over 30 goals and 75 points before his call up.

 

The next 2 years will be a battle against the cap as has been the case the last 5-7 years. We'll see what happens after that. Hopefully we can graduate three 30 goal scorers, but I'm not counting on it at the same time.

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

I don't disagree that the team still needs work to improve. We know that much is true.

 

But you guys are saying that we're 2-6 players away and 4-5 years away (minimum) from building depth.

 

Just realize that these were the exact same talking points for the past 7-8 years - over and over and over again - when we were on the decline and bottom feeding.

 

We're not bottom feeders anymore. We're not rebuilding. Our window is just beginning. Our entire organization, including development, prospects and farm is better, improving and aligned.

 

My point is ... we can't always be 2-6 players away and always 4-5 years away no matter the situation, process, or improvements.

 

 

 

 

Yes, like I said below not being negative just pointing out how difficult it will be to match what Dallas has done. It's pretty rare. Fortunately it's not the only way.

 

I agree our situation is much improved all around so don't lump me in with the naysayers.  I don't like always being 2-6 players away either which is what prompted the comment in the first place. I hope there is a time when we stop trading our firsts and seconds away for fleeting glimpses of something unattainable. That is not a dig at this year's group, but it's where we are due to past transgressions the last decade or so.

 

I also didn't say we're that far away from building depth, just that far off (minimum) to pull off great depth, like Dallas has. We just don't have comparable prospects, or a pick in the first 3 this year, and no second next year. To be honest we'll probably have to keep trading our 1st's and 2nds to surround this core during the next 4-5 years ... unless we have that explosion of talent come through, like Dallas.

 

We'll be in tough the next 2 years due to the cap but after that we'll have a ton of cap space to work with when it's time to re-up Hughes, and Demko. Anything is possible then.

 

2 hours ago, JayDangles said:

I'm confused. On one hand you're calling out management for trading away futures, but on the other hand you're talking about how Willlander and Lekkerimaki are our only hope. 2 players highly sought after at this year's draft that our organization refused to trade in order to "go for it"

 

Sounds like you're just throwing stuff at the wall here.

 

Management made 2 solid moves this year to better the team. Zadorov was a great pick up, Lindholm was a very solid smart trade at the time. 

We were the class of the league and needed a 2C to solidify our top 6. It's not their fault Lindholm hasn't worked out.

 

They haven't mortgaged the future, they are bettering the team one step at a time. We've gone from far out of the playoffs to about to secure home ice for the first round.... management is doing awesome. Pace yourself.

 

 

Sorry to anyone who took my comments as negative as that was not my intent. Merely trying to point out that achieving the depth Dallas has is a very hard ask without high draft picks ... of which we have very few. It's quite rare for teams to have as much success as Dallas has had drafting while also having success on the ice like they have. A big part of that is because they have kept a good number of their 1st and second round picks for consecutive years.

 

In my next post I agreed with you. I wasn't unhappy at all with moving our first this year to get Lindholm. I agree completely with your view on that trade. I felt the team deserved it. It just hasn't worked out great so far. Although I really think it can if he's healthy for the playoffs.

 

I was talking about the picks we've traded as an organization over the last 7-10 years, not just this year, but it's also a couple more top picks we don't have anymore.

 

I love what management has done so far. I agree 100%. 

Edited April 9 by Gawdzukes

[Strawbone]

8 minutes ago, Dom said:

Going to throw the Burr jersey on tonight.... don't wear it often, 1-0 this year when it's on. 

We could use a little Burr energy for tonight. Hope it works. 
 

My magic jersey that I had on for 7 or 8 straight wins at one point has apparently run out of power.  

[Dom]

7 minutes ago, Heretic said:

Wasn't Demko supposed to be back by now?

The latest rumour I heard was vs the Oilers. Hopefully he comes back vs the Yotes though. 

[Optimist Prime]

50 minutes ago, The Aquaman said:

This season is starting to feel like a drag.

If it helps, and it does for me, if we went 5-5-0 in the last ten games in pretty much any season you want to pick from the last decade, we would all be thinking if they can string together a couple back to back wins, that would be outstanding. 

 

Here we are, with 102 points and 5-5-0 in our "slump period" and everyone is neighing around the joint, causing me to ask "why the long face, horse?"

[Optimist Prime]

6 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

We could use a little Burr energy for tonight. Hope it works. 
 

My magic jersey that I had on for 7 or 8 straight wins at one point has apparently run out of power.  

Here I was thinking it was mine..i forgot to put it on for a few weeks now. 

[OldFaithfulcap]

The funny thing about Silovs leading latvia to a 3rd place finish in the world championship is that they defeated the USA for 3rd. DeSmith was in net. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

Iain MacIntyre

@imacSportsnet

 

For levity, JT Miller had “Conor Garland 400th NHL Game” T-shirts made for the team. Players had them on when Garland arrived today for morning skate. Miller: “My only regret is we didn’t have one for every single person in the organization.” Garland: “He stole my joke.”

[Rocket-68]

24 minutes ago, Dom said:

Going to throw the Burr jersey on tonight.... don't wear it often, 1-0 this year when it's on. 

Don't take if off from now until we will the Cup in June!!!!!! .

[Dr. Crossbar]

29 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Yes, like I said below not being negative just pointing out how difficult it will be to match what Dallas has done. It's pretty rare. Fortunately it's not the only way.

 

I agree our situation is much improved all around so don't lump me in with the naysayers.  I don't like always being 2-6 players away either which is what prompted the comment in the first place. I hope there is a time when we stop trading our firsts and seconds away for fleeting glimpses of something unattainable. That is not a dig at this year's group, but it's where we are due to past transgressions the last decade or so.

 

I also didn't say we're that far away from building depth, just that far off (minimum) to pull off great depth, like Dallas has. We just don't have comparable prospects, or a pick in the first 3 this year, and no second next year. To be honest we'll probably have to keep trading our 1st's and 2nds to surround this core during the next 4-5 years ... unless we have that explosion of talent come through, like Dallas.

 

We'll be in tough the next 2 years due to the cap but after that we'll have a ton of cap space to work with when it's time to re-up Hughes, and Demko. Anything is possible then.

 

I wasn't lumping you in with the naysayers or saying that you were being negative. Stop being so sensitive. I wanted to point out that you were treading into the territory where you were saying the same things. It's important to make the separation from when we were declining and bottom feeding. Otherwise it just sounds like the same arguments no matter what happens so it's always lose-lose.

 

I've long said on here that people need to be able to recognize when we're closer and things are going well. There's a difference this year in that we're a different team with better depth and have been atop the league.

 

Like I just said to Coconuts, Allvin and management have only been at this for just over two years. I'd look at this as Phase 1. Their decision-making has been better and the improvements and alignment has been impressive.

 

Me personally, I'd like to see them retain all of those 2nds but I honestly believe they're going for it with this core for the duration of Petey and Hughes as the window. It's going to be tough to stockpile and retain while competing and drafting lower. Their decision-making will be put to the test. I hope they figure it out and don't leave us depleted and bare for the next core.

 

It'll be tough with the cap but I'm confident they'll get through it more positively and effectively given the limitations.

 

 

 

Edited April 9 by Dr. Crossbar

[Rip The Mesh]

 

[Dom]

12 minutes ago, Rocket-68 said:

Don't take if off from now until we will the Cup in June!!!!!! .

We shall see the result tonight!! Save it for the playoffs if it is a good one haha

[JayDangles]

23 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Yes, we will try players out sure, but will they have success is the question?

 

Their AHL records right now though are irrelevant as Dallas has all these players in their line-up already, and for years to come. Raty has 18 goals in his second year, so sure he has a chance, but he sure doesn't look like Robertson, who had 25 in his first year of AHL, and has averaged 38 per 82 over his first 4 NHL seasons, or Johnston who jumped right into the NHL with 24 goals. Stankoven was on pace for over 30 goals and 75 points before his call up.

 

The next 2 years will be a battle against the cap as has been the case the last 5-7 years. We'll see what happens after that. Hopefully we can graduate three 30 goal scorers, but I'm not counting on it at the same time.

 

 

Yes, like I said below not being negative just pointing out how difficult it will be to match what Dallas has done. It's pretty rare. Fortunately it's not the only way.

 

I agree our situation is much improved all around so don't lump me in with the naysayers.  I don't like always being 2-6 players away either which is what prompted the comment in the first place. I hope there is a time when we stop trading our firsts and seconds away for fleeting glimpses of something unattainable. That is not a dig at this year's group, but it's where we are due to past transgressions the last decade or so.

 

I also didn't say we're that far away from building depth, just that far off (minimum) to pull off great depth, like Dallas has. We just don't have comparable prospects, or a pick in the first 3 this year, and no second next year. To be honest we'll probably have to keep trading our 1st's and 2nds to surround this core during the next 4-5 years ... unless we have that explosion of talent come through, like Dallas.

 

We'll be in tough the next 2 years due to the cap but after that we'll have a ton of cap space to work with when it's time to re-up Hughes, and Demko. Anything is possible then.

 

 

Sorry to anyone who took my comments as negative as that was not my intent. Merely trying to point out that achieving the depth Dallas has is a very hard ask without high draft picks ... of which we have very few. It's quite rare for teams to have as much success as Dallas has had drafting while also having success on the ice like they have. A big part of that is because they have kept a good number of their 1st and second round picks for consecutive years.

 

In my next post I agreed with you. I wasn't unhappy at all with moving our first this year to get Lindholm. I agree completely with your view on that trade. I felt the team deserved it. It just hasn't worked out great so far. Although I really think it can if he's healthy for the playoffs.

 

I was talking about the picks we've traded as an organization over the last 7-10 years, not just this year, but it's also a couple more top picks we don't have anymore.

 

I love what management has done so far. I agree 100%. 

All good.

 

You're right in a sense though. Management has traded more picks than maybe they should, but they were sort of put in that position when the team started crushing it. Probably a year sooner than they thought.

 

Now we don't really have assets to trade. Maybe using hindsight it may have been a better option to move Petterson at the TDL this year. 

 

Could you imagine if we had Guentzel instead of Lindholm, and i dont know what carolina was offering but maybe Kotkaniemi (sp?),  Necas,  a first and Pesce?

 I dunno....

[Rip The Mesh]

Looking smooth for tonight.  

 

[RWMc1]

 

[-Buzzsaw-]

I hope we don't see more stupid line juggling from Tocchet.

 

Time to go back to what worked.

 

Just leave Boeser with JT and Hoglander with Pettersson.  Suter with JT and Mikheyev with Pettersson.

 

AND RE-UNITE THE 3RD LINE!!!!  PUT GARLAND BACK WITH JOSHUA AND BLUEGER!!!!

[Coconuts]

47 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

This management's decision-making has been better than the previous regime's. That gives me hope. I agree, though, we need to start retaining those picks. It may be tough if they're going all in for this core's window without thinking about the next core.

 

We're only a little over two years into Allvin and this regime getting a handle on things, so I tend to think of this as Phase 1. What they have done across the board  and top to bottom in a short amount of time has been impressive. Going forward the rubber really hits the road.

 

The interesting thing as compared to the previous regime is that we're just entering our competitive window, which influences the drafting decisions and retention. So context and reasoning has been different. In some ways, makes it easier knowing what needs to be replaced. In other ways harder looking farther down the line at replacing key pieces while not drafting low given our window to compete.

 

 

 

 

 

It has been, I haven't agreed with all of their moves but by and large it's been more encouraging. And you're probably right, it's been early going but we're trending away from that now. 

 

That's definitely worth considering. What Benning accomplished, and what he failed to accomplish, is underscored by the fact that we were largely bottom feeders or mediocre under his watch. We've begun to (hopefully) emerge under JR and Allvin, although I wouldn't be surprised to see some regression next season. They've walked into a different dynamic than Benning did and that will likely affect how they manage resources. 

 

Thing is, competitive window or not, they do need to balance trying to keep the NHL roster competitive with building the future. What's gone on in Abbotsford, and their picks thus far, are encouraging, but we need more. 

 

Miller will be 32 before next season is up, Pettersson will be 26, Boeser will be 28, Demko will be 29, Hughes will be 25. Much of the rest of the roster is later 20's, with guys like Hoglander, Podkolzin (largely AHL this season), and Aman being the exceptions. Willander is probably a little ways out, give it a season or two, that's probably true of Lekkerimaki as well but you never. 

 

But two years will fly by before you know it, and our core will all be closer to 30, 30, or just past it. That's not cause for panic when considered on it's own, but it suddenly doesn't look so good if you don't have blue chippers stewing, and if you aren't drafting in the first two rounds.

 

I understand the pressure of being competitive now, and viewing the short-term as a window, but unless we want to slide back into mediocrity management also needs to prioritize the future and utilize more of their picks to select players going forward. Our prospect pool is better than it was, but it's probably still in the bottom half of the league and it's propped up by Raty, Pettersson, Willander, and Lekkerimaki. 

 

It's why I've repeatedly emphasized the importance of drafting and developing, and of balancing bolstering the prospect pool while trying to build rosters that can be playoff teams. One can sign uni players and look for players overseas, one can even trade for players (though teams typically don't give up their stud young players), but drafting and developing your own players still remains the best way to acquire top tier talent. 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

Vancouver and Dallas's philosophy haven't been the same, Dallas generally prioritizes using their own picks and that's why they've been able to find, develop, utilize, and trade good prospects. 

 

I've been encouraged by this management's drafting thus far, but I'm hoping they do a better job of retaining and using their picks going forward. That's not just been an issue for this management group though. 

 

Since 2000 the Canucks haven't had a 1st round pick in 2002, 2010, 2020,or 2021. Soon to include 2024. Lot of misses throughout those years, but drafting and development have long been issues. Roughly on par with Dallas keeping their 1sts.

 

It's the 2nd round picks where things get quite ugly though. We didn't pick a player in the 2nd round in 2000, 2001, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2022, 2023, and soon to include 2024. This franchise has consistently frittered away 2nd rounders over the last 24 years, 13 drafts without a 2nd. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

 

Things will shift a little going forward, Dallas doesn't have a 2nd in this coming draft or the following, but it's smart use of picks is why they were able to get Tanev for Grushnikov (48OA) and a 2nd, which meant they could keep their 1st. Generally Dallas keeps their picks, but they managed to add a top 4RD for what they're hoping will be a cup run, and Tanev's exactly what they needed. 

 

We still have our 2025 1st and 2nd but given how we've been trading picks I'm not exactly optimistic about us keeping them. 

 

Thanks Coco, I knew it was you that did this excellent analysis. 

 

I got a lot of pushback from my post but yeah we're not likely to have their level of success through drafting in the next 5 years simply due to not having all those second rounders, and our firsts the last while. It's just common sense really.

 

That's not to say we're sunk or this management group hasn't been strong but we'll just have to get there through UFA's and trades. Imagine if we could just plop a 20 year old 30 goal scorer alongside Petey and a 20 year old 15 goal defenceman in the top 4 both making $825,000 for the next 3 years. That would sure change our outlook wouldn't it?