Interesting How Fast Things Can Change - Canada vs USA Part 1: Defence

[HKSR]

I remember earlier this season and prior to that, lots of people were touting how USA had the better defence group (vs Canada). 

Now that we have this season nearly wrapped up, I'd say I would prefer Canada's top 6 defence group over USA's.

 

My Canada defence group:

Morrissey-Dobson (yes I put this pair ahead of Toews-Makar simply because I think this pair would be much more dominant defensively)

Toews-Makar (if this is the 2nd pair, we are in damn good shape)

Theodore-Doughty (hate Poughty, but the guy is still a force out there at both ends of the ice)

 

Honourable mentions:  Bouchard, Pietrangelo, Weegar, Power, Rielly

 

My USA defence group:

Q Hughes-Fox (better than Canada's top pair)

Werenski-McAvoy (I'd take Toews-Makar over these 2 this year)

L Hughes-Faber (Canada's 3rd pair is WAY more experienced and comparable in terms of ability)

 

Honourable mentions: Sanderson, Hanifin, Carlson, Skjei,

Edited April 10 by HKSR

[canucks curse]

now take a look at goalies...USA has incredible star power and depth

[Canuck You]

US started investing and producing better players, Was about time they caught up to Canada.

[Pears]

We're definitely about even but the USA beats us by a landslide with goaltending now. Hellebuyck/Demko vs Jarry/Binnington

[Coconuts]

I'd take Canada's group, but the US has been catching up in terms of skill, the US has been better about investing in hockey and they have greater resources with which to do so. 

 

Hockey's a rich man's game now and it's only gotten more and more inaccessible over time. In time Canada may be supplanted as the world's hockey superpower. 

[Miss Korea]

Neither Dobson nor Morrissey are dominant defenders.  Both are highly offensive defencemen who dictate play through pure possession.  Putting them as first pairing over a guy like Toews (arguably the best two-way defenceman in the game) doesn't make much sense.

 

As for the overall makeup of your squads, you've essentially loaded them up with a lot of point-getters.  Team Canada needs a guy like Adam Pelech.  Team USA... well, I don't know how you could've forgotten Jaccob Slavin.

 

No denying that Dobson and Bouchard have added an absurd amount of offensive depth to our blueline.  I do think that puts us over the edge.  But I also think you're missing some much needed two-way depth on both squads.

[Jess]

With the rise of Dobson to dominance, I think Canada has leveled up a bit. I haven't looked closely since halfway through the year, but at that point, I had him clearly as the #3 defenseman behind Hughes and Makar. He's a great all around defenseman who does a lot more than just get points.

[HKSR]

40 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

Neither Dobson nor Morrissey are dominant defenders.  Both are highly offensive defencemen who dictate play through pure possession.  Putting them as first pairing over a guy like Toews (arguably the best two-way defenceman in the game) doesn't make much sense.

 

As for the overall makeup of your squads, you've essentially loaded them up with a lot of point-getters.  Team Canada needs a guy like Adam Pelech.  Team USA... well, I don't know how you could've forgotten Jaccob Slavin.

 

No denying that Dobson and Bouchard have added an absurd amount of offensive depth to our blueline.  I do think that puts us over the edge.  But I also think you're missing some much needed two-way depth on both squads.

I'd say Dobson is a fantastic 2-way guy.  He was always known as one.  Just so happens he now puts up a ton of offence to go with it.  His scouting report as a prospect literally talks about it:

 

"A talented two-way defenceman that can play in all situations and stay productive. Uses his edges well and is, for the most part, a very smooth skater; however, as he gets stronger and adjusts to a more up-tempo style of hockey, he will need to work on his speed in gap-closing. Offensively, he utilizes his keen sense of awareness to be in the right spot at the right time, every time. Soft hands and a deadly shot accentuate his ability to get creative, on occasion. Rock solid defensively, his strong positioning severely limits time and space for the opposition. All-in-all, a well-rounded, reliable, and consistent defenceman that can log a lot of ice time and provide his team with a stable presence on the back end. (Curtis Joe, EP 2017)"  -- https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/275797/noah-dobson

 

Toews is arguably the best 2-way guy like you said.

 

Even at his age, Doughty remains as one of the best 2 way guys as well.  There's a reason why LAK are so strong with their defensive game and he plays over 25min a night, more than any other player in the entire NHL.

[HKSR]

8 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

With the rise of Dobson to dominance, I think Canada has leveled up a bit. I haven't look closely since halfway through the year, but at that point, I had him clearly as the #3 defenseman behind Hughes and Makar. He's a great all around defenseman who does a lot more than just get points.

Exactly.  Dobson has surprised most people this year.  He's probably one of the best 2-way guys in the entire NHL now.

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I'd say Dobson is a fantastic 2-way guy.  He was always known as one.  Just so happens he now puts up a ton of offence to go with it.  His scouting report as a prospect literally talks about it:

 

"A talented two-way defenceman that can play in all situations and stay productive. Uses his edges well and is, for the most part, a very smooth skater; however, as he gets stronger and adjusts to a more up-tempo style of hockey, he will need to work on his speed in gap-closing. Offensively, he utilizes his keen sense of awareness to be in the right spot at the right time, every time. Soft hands and a deadly shot accentuate his ability to get creative, on occasion. Rock solid defensively, his strong positioning severely limits time and space for the opposition. All-in-all, a well-rounded, reliable, and consistent defenceman that can log a lot of ice time and provide his team with a stable presence on the back end. (Curtis Joe, EP 2017)"  -- https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/275797/noah-dobson

 

Toews is arguably the best 2-way guy like you said.

 

Even at his age, Doughty remains as one of the best 2 way guys as well.  There's a reason why LAK are so strong with their defensive game and he plays over 25min a night, more than any other player in the entire NHL.

 

I get why some folks don't like Drew, but those who try to dunk on him just make themselves look foolish. When it's all said and done he could potentially be a first ballot hall of famer. 

 

Two cups, a Norris, two Olympic golds, world junior gold, world cup of hockey gold, world championship silver, super series gold, Ivan Hlinka gold, 1000+ games, possibly 700+ points by the time he retires, NHL all-star, Olympic all-star. All he's missing for triple gold is a world championship gold and he could still get that. 

 

Even at 34 he's still a force, 50+ points this season and still one of the league's top minute munchers, as he has been for most of his NHL career. 

[Miss Korea]

7 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I'd say Dobson is a fantastic 2-way guy.  He was always known as one.  Just so happens he now puts up a ton of offence to go with it.  His scouting report as a prospect literally talks about it:

 

"A talented two-way defenceman that can play in all situations and stay productive. Uses his edges well and is, for the most part, a very smooth skater; however, as he gets stronger and adjusts to a more up-tempo style of hockey, he will need to work on his speed in gap-closing. Offensively, he utilizes his keen sense of awareness to be in the right spot at the right time, every time. Soft hands and a deadly shot accentuate his ability to get creative, on occasion. Rock solid defensively, his strong positioning severely limits time and space for the opposition. All-in-all, a well-rounded, reliable, and consistent defenceman that can log a lot of ice time and provide his team with a stable presence on the back end. (Curtis Joe, EP 2017)"  -- https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/275797/noah-dobson

 

Toews is arguably the best 2-way guy like you said.

 

Even at his age, Doughty remains as one of the best 2 way guys as well.  There's a reason why LAK are so strong with their defensive game and he plays over 25min a night, more than any other player in the entire NHL.

 

I'm not saying Noah Dobson is a poor defender - not by any means.  I'm saying he has emerged as an offensive defenceman.  Isles fans will tell you that he is solid in his own zone.  He's no Adam Pelech or Ryan Pulock, but since those two guys have been hurt all year, he's stepped up massively and become a superstar in his own right.  You can't use a 7 year old scouting report on his time in Bathurst.

 

 

 

The analytics indeed suggest he has made some significant strides defensively, and that will carry over even as New York's shutdown D-men return to the lineup.  In fairness to you, you can make a counterpoint that some of Dobson's numbers are pulled down because he's forced to play alongside Alex Romanov instead of Pelech.

 

The fact that you left this guy off your US roster is criminal:

 

[Miss Korea]

7 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I get why some folks don't like Drew, but those who try to dunk on him just make themselves look foolish. When it's all said and done he could potentially be a first ballot hall of famer. 

 

Two cups, a Norris, two Olympic golds, world junior gold, world cup of hockey gold, world championship silver, super series gold, Ivan Hlinka gold, 1000+ games, possibly 700+ points by the time he retires, NHL all-star, Olympic all-star. All he's missing for triple gold is a world championship gold and he could still get that. 

 

Even at 34 he's still a force, 50+ points this season and still one of the league's top minute munchers, as he has been for most of his NHL career. 

 

Drew Doughty dropped off a bit during the pandemic years because he was injured a lot.  We thought his body was breaking down... and then he got healthy again.  Now he's as good as he ever was - a natural born Canuck killer.  

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Drew Doughty dropped off a bit during the pandemic years because he was injured a lot.  We thought his body was breaking down... and then he got healthy again.  Now he's as good as he ever was - a natural born Canuck killer.  

 

Him and Kopitar have long been Canuck killers but they've also been players I'm a fan of. I will always sing Kopitar's praises in particular, I wish he'd done what he's done as a King as a Canuck. He's basically a better, two-way Getzlaf without the international accolades. But hey, kinda hard when he's from Slovenia. 

 

They could both be first ballot guys tbh.

[HKSR]

47 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

I'm not saying Noah Dobson is a poor defender - not by any means.  I'm saying he has emerged as an offensive defenceman.  Isles fans will tell you that he is solid in his own zone.  He's no Adam Pelech or Ryan Pulock, but since those two guys have been hurt all year, he's stepped up massively and become a superstar in his own right.  You can't use a 7 year old scouting report on his time in Bathurst.

 

 

 

The analytics indeed suggest he has made some significant strides defensively, and that will carry over even as New York's shutdown D-men return to the lineup.  In fairness to you, you can make a counterpoint that some of Dobson's numbers are pulled down because he's forced to play alongside Alex Romanov instead of Pelech.

 

The fact that you left this guy off your US roster is criminal:

 

I just think when a guy puts up the offensive numbers that Dobson puts up while also being very solid defensively, I'd take that over a guy that puts up half the points and is a bit better defensively.  Having Dobson next to a Morrissey or Theodore would likely do wonders to his underlying stats.

 

Better throw me behind bars then in regards to Slavin lol.  I guess I overlook him because of his low offensive numbers (relative to the other guys).  Only 5 goals and 35 points in 79 games is RELATIVELY low production compared to all the other defencemen listed that are close to that 50 point mark.  I'd take Luke Hughes over Slavin because of the fact Hughes could potentially elevate his game to another level, not to mention his incredible skating ability (not unlike his brothers).  Clearly I wouldn't take Slavin over Hughes or Werenski either.

[HKSR]

55 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Drew Doughty dropped off a bit during the pandemic years because he was injured a lot.  We thought his body was breaking down... and then he got healthy again.  Now he's as good as he ever was - a natural born Canuck killer.  

 

49 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Him and Kopitar have long been Canuck killers but they've also been players I'm a fan of. I will always sing Kopitar's praises in particular, I wish he'd done what he's done as a King as a Canuck. He's basically a better, two-way Getzlaf without the international accolades. But hey, kinda hard when he's from Slovenia. 

 

They could both be first ballot guys tbh.

HATE Doughty as a King.  LOVE Doughty as a Team Canada defenceman.

 

I REALLY wanted Kopitar that draft.  Who knows what Bourdon may have turned out to be, but I don't know if he would have had the impact Kopitar has had.

[HKSR]

2 hours ago, Pears said:

We're definitely about even but the USA beats us by a landslide with goaltending now. Hellebuyck/Demko vs Jarry/Binnington

Yeah I dunno what happened to Canada's goaltending situation.  We used to produce a ton of goalies... especially from the QMJHL.  Now we've got practically nobody to play in net.

[Miss Korea]

4 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I just think when a guy puts up the offensive numbers that Dobson puts up while also being very solid defensively, I'd take that over a guy that puts up half the points and is a bit better defensively.  Having Dobson next to a Morrissey or Theodore would likely do wonders to his underlying stats.

 

Better throw me behind bars then in regards to Slavin lol.  I guess I overlook him because of his low offensive numbers (relative to the other guys).  Only 5 goals and 35 points in 79 games is RELATIVELY low production compared to all the other defencemen listed that are close to that 50 point mark.  I'd take Luke Hughes over Slavin because of the fact Hughes could potentially elevate his game to another level, not to mention his incredible skating ability (not unlike his brothers).  Clearly I wouldn't take Slavin over Hughes or Werenski either.

 

Luke Hughes probably should've been scratched a couple of games this year.  He tried to shoulder the load of a completely depleted Devils core and his play began to completely break down.  It got to a point where he was getting exposed, being a minus player almost every single game.  For some inexplicable reason, Travis Green scratched Simon Nemec instead.  

 

You should go to jail.

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, HKSR said:

 

HATE Doughty as a King.  LOVE Doughty as a Team Canada defenceman.

 

I REALLY wanted Kopitar that draft.  Who knows what Bourdon may have turned out to be, but I don't know if he would have had the impact Kopitar has had.

 

Should've drafted Kopitarz. 

 

But for real, dude us a unicorn. Top line center, good on draws, Selke caliber two-way play, elevates his game come playoff time, leads his team in points most years. He's got a power forward frame and can't really be intimidated either. 6'3", 225. If not for Bergeron he'd have more than a pair of Selke's, he may very well add another this season. 

 

1209 points in 1370 games, 77 points in 92 playoff games. He's incredibly durable despite the tough matchups he's always taken on. 

 

Two Selke's, two cups, two Lady Byngs, some sort of Leadership Award. If he was from a more prestigious hockey nation he'd likely have a bunch of gold and silver to go with it.

Edited April 10 by Coconuts

[Miss Korea]

Just now, HKSR said:

Yeah I dunno what happened to Canada's goaltending situation.  We used to produce a ton of goalies... especially from the QMJHL.  Now we've got practically nobody to play in net.

 

One word: college.  Turns out that developing your game for an ADDITIONAL four years in a defense/goaltending oriented league does wonders.  The more goalies we send down to the States, the better.  

[HKSR]

3 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Luke Hughes probably should've been scratched a couple of games this year.  He tried to shoulder the load of a completely depleted Devils core and his play began to completely break down.  It got to a point where he was getting exposed, being a minus player almost every single game.  For some inexplicable reason, Travis Green scratched Simon Nemec instead.  

 

You should go to jail.

Probably because he's playing way more minutes than he should be.  Hence he'd be a 3rd pair guy for USA.  He'd dominate in those sheltered minutes. 

 

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

One word: college.  Turns out that developing your game for an ADDITIONAL four years in a defense/goaltending oriented league does wonders.  The more goalies we send down to the States, the better.  

But it's not like they're Canadian born guys going to the States.  We simply don't have any Canadian born goalies that are elite. 

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Should've drafted Kopitarz. 

 

But for real, dude us a unicorn. Top line center, good on draws, Selke caliber two-way play, elevates his game come playoff time, leads his team in points most years. He's got a power forward frame and can't really be intimidated either. 6'3", 225. If not for Bergeron he'd have more than a pair of Selke's, he may very well add another this season. 

 

1209 points in 1370 games, 77 points in 92 playoff games. He's incredibly durable despite the tough matchups he's always taken on. 

 

Two Selke's, two cups, two Lady Byngs, some sort of Leadership Award. If he was from a more prestigious hockey nation he'd likely have a bunch of gold and silver to go with it.

Yeah, can't think of another player quite like him.  Selke level centre with that kinda size and offensive ability... Getzlaf maybe... Barkov?

[Coconuts]

16 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Yeah, can't think of another player quite like him.  Selke level centre with that kinda size and offensive ability... Getzlaf maybe... Barkov?

 

There isn't one, not of his caliber. Barkov is the same height but roughly 20 pounds lighter. 

 

I describe him as a better Getzlaf. They're roughly the same size, played the same position, but Kopitar has a much more complete toolkit. 

 

Getlaf's career high was 91, Kopitar's is 92. Getzlaf only put up 1019 points in 1157 games though. Getzlaf's playoff production was higher though, 120 in 125. They're probably similar tier playmakers, Getzlaf put up 282 goals and 737, he was an oddball in that he was a playmaking power forward. Kopitar's put up 419 goals and 790 assists. Getzlaf had 960 PIMS, Kopitar has 344, this likely reflects Getzlaf's playing like a more traditional power forward whereas that's just a piece of Kopitar's toolbox. 

 

Where they really diverge is Getzlaf's legacy being affected by international golds, but I personally throw that out the window when comparing him to Kopitar, Kopitar was never going to achieve any of that as a Slovenian. Getzlaf never won any individual NHL awards. 

Edited April 10 by Coconuts

[Miss Korea]

12 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Probably because he's playing way more minutes than he should be.  Hence he'd be a 3rd pair guy for USA.  He'd dominate in those sheltered minutes. 

 

 

Sheltered minutes?  Against Team Canada??  What does our fourth line look like in 2026?  Suzuki and Bedard maybe?  

 

11 minutes ago, HKSR said:

But it's not like they're Canadian born guys going to the States.  We simply don't have any Canadian born goalies that are elite. 

 

That's because Canadian goalies still aren't going to college yet and taking advantage of its development track.  So far the best goalies to come out of the CHL are guys like Sebastian Cossa (Canadian) and Dustin Wolf (American).

 

Just look at Devon Levi.  An undersized Quebec kid who went to college for a couple years and became a top goaltending prospect.  Imagine being able to play against grown men, practice with the same facilities/coaches for four extra years, and delay your decision to go pro until age 22/23.

[HKSR]

9 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

There isn't one, not of his caliber. Barkov is the same height but roughly 20 pounds lighter. 

 

I describe him as a better Getzlaf. They're roughly the same size, played the same position, but Kopitar has a much more complete toolkit. 

 

Getlaf's career high was 91, Kopitar's is 92. Getzlaf only put up 1019 points in 1157 games though. Getzlaf's playoff production was higher though, 120 in 125. They're probably similar tier playmakers, Getzlaf put up 282 goals and 737, he was an oddball in that he was a playmaking power forward. Kopitar's put up 419 goals and 790 assists. Getzlaf had 960 PIMS, Kopitar has 344, this likely reflects Getzlaf's playing like a more traditional power forward whereas that's just a piece of Kopitar's toolbox. 

 

Where they really diverge is Getzlaf's legacy being affected by international golds, but I personally throw that out the window when comparing him to Kopitar, Kopitar was never going to achieve any of that as a Slovenian. 

Doing some digging... these guys come to mind as closest comparables...

 

Kopitar is listed as 6'3" 225lbs

 

Getzlaf (as mentioned)

Barkov (6'3" 215lbs)

Hintz (6'3" 212lbs)

Eriksson Ek (6'3" 207lbs)

 

Gonna keep digging lol