Anyone care to estimate what Vegas's real CAP is for this season?

[-Buzzsaw-]

Once again, Vegas has circumvented the NHL CAP limit with their LTIR smoke and mirrors.... without a peep from Gary Bettman or the NHL board of governors.

 

I have been trying to estimate what Vegas's real CAP will be for the team they ice for the playoffs... my estimate is around $100 million... similar to what most of the CAP tracker sites say... that is the actual CAP total for the players they will have on the ice... with the supposed 'injuries' all having miraculously healed in time for the post-season.

 

That is only around 18.5 million over the supposed official CAP limit for 2023/2024... 

 

Vancouver's CAP seems to be around $85 million...  our GM tried to play honest to the limit... and ended up around 1.5 million over with injuries.  (real injuries)

 

Anyone else want to put an estimate of what they think Vegas's bill actually is?

[gwarrior]

What's Vegas's actual cap hit? "What is a fucking joke, Alex?".

[Ballisticsports]

 Their actually cap?

It is beyond  and clearly circumventing the a cap and  integrity of the game, that the cap was intended to do (remember that statement Buttman re-writing legal rules)? and yet this is the 3rd year in a row?  (you run this league one step above WWF with your lack of integrity)

 

Why does Bettman let them make a mockery of this now? (only because Florida is not a hockey market)?

 

Does the NHL have a doctor see the player on LTIR as well, before allowing LTIR to a team)?

 

Why isn't the cap adhered to when the player returns? (They still have option of using new player in different position, or going with the hot hand , which is still an unfair advantage

[Rocket-68]

 

Putting Stone on LTIR is what allowed them to add Hertl and Mantha ... It took a lacerated spleen for them to do that. If I was Stone, I wouldn't "volunteer" to have my spleen lacerated just so Vegas can shelve me until the playoffs begin.

 

Yes, it sucks and yes teams have taken advantage with the most blatant example being Tampa Bay where one player went onto the LTIR the entire season and returned game 1 (forget who it was) but that allowed about $10M of "extra cap" space if memory serves me correctly.

 

This will be looked at in the next CBA I am pretty sure, question is how.

 

Edited April 19 by Rocket-68

[coolboarder]

Easy, if you are on LTIR, you need to be off LTIR to be able to practice. Stone started to practice.  You may skate alone but if you are going to practice with the team, it should be off the LTIR for them to be able to do that.  That would be the way to prevent any loopholes.  You can still go over the cap and still keep this rules but the trick part is the practice aspect even if he is healthy.    Once you start to practice, you can remove the LTIR to IR and still practice but you need to be cap complaint to do it so.  That is the way to solve this issue and close the loophole with ability to practice.

[CanucksJay]

18 hours ago, coolboarder said:

Easy, if you are on LTIR, you need to be off LTIR to be able to practice. Stone started to practice.  You may skate alone but if you are going to practice with the team, it should be off the LTIR for them to be able to do that.  That would be the way to prevent any loopholes.  You can still go over the cap and still keep this rules but the trick part is the practice aspect even if he is healthy.    Once you start to practice, you can remove the LTIR to IR and still practice but you need to be cap complaint to do it so.  That is the way to solve this issue and close the loophole with ability to practice.

Well said. 

Or as someone else said, you could just count cap even during the playoffs... 

 

Ridiculous that cap goes out the window magically when playoff starts

[Bob Long]

20 hours ago, Rocket-68 said:

 

Putting Stone on LTIR is what allowed them to add Hertl and Mantha ... It took a lacerated spleen for them to do that. If I was Stone, I wouldn't "volunteer" to have my spleen lacerated just so Vegas can shelve me until the playoffs begin.

 

Yes, it sucks and yes teams have taken advantage with the most blatant example being Tampa Bay where one player went onto the LTIR the entire season and returned game 1 (forget who it was) but that allowed about $10M of "extra cap" space if memory serves me correctly.

 

This will be looked at in the next CBA I am pretty sure, question is how.

 

 

probably a team doctor says it was a lacerated spleen. Its like Trumps doctor in reverse. 

 

[coolboarder]

6 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Well said. 

Or as someone else said, you could just count cap even during the playoffs... 

 

Ridiculous that cap goes out the window magically when playoff starts

I agree.  It is impossible to count the cap during the playoffs because the players paycheck is based on the regular season, not the playoffs.  So that is why I think that LTIR rules with no practice until you are under cap complaint would be a good way of check and balance.   That is the one way to solve this issue.  Once playoffs hit, cap goes away but you can only practice for two days and he wouldn't still be not ready to play or he would be so rusty.   That is why I think that this LTIR rules with unable to practice with the team would help to reduce the circumventing the cap. If a player is healthy enough to practice, he is no longer LTIR and it can be IR so if this rules is in place, Stone wouldn't be able to practice until today.

[Huggy86]

Vegas LTIR when playoffs starts

Edited April 20 by Huggy86

[IBatch]

On 4/18/2024 at 11:53 PM, Rocket-68 said:

 

Putting Stone on LTIR is what allowed them to add Hertl and Mantha ... It took a lacerated spleen for them to do that. If I was Stone, I wouldn't "volunteer" to have my spleen lacerated just so Vegas can shelve me until the playoffs begin.

 

Yes, it sucks and yes teams have taken advantage with the most blatant example being Tampa Bay where one player went onto the LTIR the entire season and returned game 1 (forget who it was) but that allowed about $10M of "extra cap" space if memory serves me correctly.

 

This will be looked at in the next CBA I am pretty sure, question is how.

 

Kucherov made shirts.    Basically rubbed it in the leagues faces.     They won back to back.    Stamkos.  Kucherov.     "Number one Bullshit!" for sure.   These teams already are able to sign their players at a heavy discount compared to players North of the border,   Same with Dallas.   And  Vegas.    Same with FLD.   Doesn't anyone else notice a pattern?    Imagine what Allvin could do, with a 95-96 million dollar payroll compared to 83.5 and OEL.    A lot.   Same with OTT, MTL and TO.   36.6 verus 53% and change.   Yikes. 

Edited April 20 by IBatch

[IBatch]

As for not counting the cap, and retention, once the playoffs start.  Have zero issue with GMs doing whatever they can to load their teams up for the playoffs.   Not a big fan of the cap but get its needed.   And that it saved most Canadian franchises, including ours, from going under.    Simply can't compete with the US markets.  

 

What needs to happen though, like Brian Burke recently said, "you know why a Canadian team hasn't won a cup since 93?"   "Taxes".   "Canucks were bleeding cash trying to stay competitive after salary disclosure and competing with the US dollar on top"  "Almost went under"   "We did everthing we could (that included revenue streams added by changing the jersey, that's the real why if the matter, created a buzz at the time) "the only way that changes is if they make the cap based on net pay"  (something i keep ranting about), "if a player is given a 7 team NTC, every Canadian city is put on there"  - paraphrased.    But that's what he said.    

 

On average, the cup should come back to Canada every 4-5 years now.   Used to be every 3 years for a long time.   On average.    Glad I watched every 93 game, if I knew it would take over 30 plus years and counting, i'd of recorded the games too.   Sure there's the internet.    Five teams in this year.   Close to 1/3.    Ugh.   

 

Best odds we've seen in awhile, especially given both the Canucks and WNP have what it takes to win it all.  

 

As for Stone, love the player, went from an unsung hero most of his time in OTT, to a legit star.    Vegas is a monster.    Hope Dallas and Vegas beat the tar out of each other and go to game seven  quadriple OT.    And Dallas wins.   Imagine how Dallas fans feel about this?   Winning the conference ... they should be allowed to pick their team (which wild card).    Lucky us.   And it's Karma that two no state tax monster teams have each other in the first round.   Dallas in six is my guess. 

 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, coolboarder said:

I agree.  It is impossible to count the cap during the playoffs because the players paycheck is based on the regular season, not the playoffs.  So that is why I think that LTIR rules with no practice until you are under cap complaint would be a good way of check and balance.   That is the one way to solve this issue.  Once playoffs hit, cap goes away but you can only practice for two days and he wouldn't still be not ready to play or he would be so rusty.   That is why I think that this LTIR rules with unable to practice with the team would help to reduce the circumventing the cap. If a player is healthy enough to practice, he is no longer LTIR and it can be IR so if this rules is in place, Stone wouldn't be able to practice until today.

That's a good idea.  

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Well said. 

Or as someone else said, you could just count cap even during the playoffs... 

 

Ridiculous that cap goes out the window magically when playoff starts

Actually don't mind that it goes out the window, but perhaps they need to put a "cap" on how much is acceptable.   So if a star player is out for the first round or even part of the first round, comes back a team isn't heavily penalized for the work the GMs did at the TDL trying to replace that.     Most replacements, come in with retention and are rentals.    I'd think 10% should cover that.  

 

For example say EP is hurt next year and out for a couple months.   But his timeline is early May.  Then Allvin could plan for finding a replacement.   He's a top paid player, 13 plus percent next year.   Teams should be allowed to replace guys for their playoff runs.  

 

And personally think the price teams pay for retention, makes for a better product.   Helps teams get more value back, and as for fans, it's great to see teams loading up.   Makes for better entertainment value, and brings some of that pre-cap excitement back.   Much rather see a COL-DET match up circa mid 90's-lockout,  COL-NJ final 2001,  then vanilla. 

Edited April 20 by IBatch

[CanucksJay]

6 hours ago, coolboarder said:

I agree.  It is impossible to count the cap during the playoffs because the players paycheck is based on the regular season, not the playoffs.  So that is why I think that LTIR rules with no practice until you are under cap complaint would be a good way of check and balance.   That is the one way to solve this issue.  Once playoffs hit, cap goes away but you can only practice for two days and he wouldn't still be not ready to play or he would be so rusty.   That is why I think that this LTIR rules with unable to practice with the team would help to reduce the circumventing the cap. If a player is healthy enough to practice, he is no longer LTIR and it can be IR so if this rules is in place, Stone wouldn't be able to practice until today.

Problem is they'll circumvent practice too... 

Put on a non contract jersey and say it's not practice, just conditioning until he gains strength... Still injured... 

 

And then miraculously, game 1 of playoffs, they'll be skating in full flight

[DrJockitch]

6 hours ago, coolboarder said:

I agree.  It is impossible to count the cap during the playoffs because the players paycheck is based on the regular season, not the playoffs.  So that is why I think that LTIR rules with no practice until you are under cap complaint would be a good way of check and balance.   That is the one way to solve this issue.  Once playoffs hit, cap goes away but you can only practice for two days and he wouldn't still be not ready to play or he would be so rusty.   That is why I think that this LTIR rules with unable to practice with the team would help to reduce the circumventing the cap. If a player is healthy enough to practice, he is no longer LTIR and it can be IR so if this rules is in place, Stone wouldn't be able to practice until today.

I think this is even less practical. Plus part of the rehab process is practice. Tocch has talked about it a lot this year. 
It is very reasonable to negotiate a way to get teams to ice playoff lineup based on regular season cap hit. Only change would really need to make is make the cap for the players playing not the total roster since there is no max roster in the playoffs. Problem is the players don’t want this and the owners don’t seem interested, the bad teams get out of contracts and the good teams get to load up, win win for the owners.
It is only the fans that don’t like it but I guarantee that Vegas and TB fans are happy with the system so even that is situational. 

I agree with many that the tax disparity is part of the struggle for Canadian teams, but only a part. Part of it is how rabid the fan base is, in most US markets you make more money and can go to the grocery store without being followed and put up on social media.  The Canadian teams are also part of the problem. How often do Canadian teams truly tear it down and rebuild?  Only TO and Montreal have been willing to do it in the last 30 years and TO jumped the gun, pulling out of the rebuild too early and not gaining the pieces for a balanced roster.  Calgary clearly needs a complete tear down and rebuild but guess what Conroy is doing, a competitive rebuild (though so far has actually accumulated pics so he isn’t totally Benninging it).

[Combover]

Sure hope fan hold up the Vegas gold child Cheaters signs  and Vegas cheaters chants 

 

every away game for Vegas they should get cheater chants make it a story the nhl wants to away.

I just Couldn’t imagine a cup final when the hockey world is watching and fans are chanting Cheaters

talk about bad press and a brutal story line that buttman would constantly be getting barraged with. 
 

 

Edited April 20 by Combover

[coolboarder]

1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:

Problem is they'll circumvent practice too... 

Put on a non contract jersey and say it's not practice, just conditioning until he gains strength... Still injured... 

 

And then miraculously, game 1 of playoffs, they'll be skating in full flight

You can skate alone, not with the team.  That is the biggest difference.  You can't really gain the game speed by just skating alone.  Any one can skate alone on their own time.  

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

I mentioned this in another thread on the same topic, but I think the best way to deal with it is to lock down LTIR like 3-5 games before the end of the season, and if you're on LTIR after that, you don't get to play in the playoffs.  That means that a team needs to be cap compliant before the end of the season, and any "LTIR"d salaries need to come off LTIR before the end of the season or the player is disqualified from playing the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs.

 

edit - and if a player comes off LTIR after the LTIR lockdown and finds themself playing in the playoffs, the team forfeits that game and the player is fined.

Edited April 20 by 6of1_halfdozenofother

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I mentioned this in another thread on the same topic, but I think the best way to deal with it is to lock down LTIR like 3-5 games before the end of the season, and if you're on LTIR after that, you don't get to play in the playoffs.  That means that a team needs to be cap compliant before the end of the season, and any "LTIR"d salaries need to come off LTIR before the end of the season or the player is disqualified from playing the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs.

 

edit - and if a player comes off LTIR after the LTIR lockdown and finds themself playing in the playoffs, the team forfeits that game and the player is fined.

Best solution yet