-Buzzsaw- Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) The Canucks are generating the fewest number of shots, and the fewest chances of any team in the Playoffs. They have been outshot and outplayed for a lot of the games they have been in... in both series. They have been fortunate to pull out some 3rd period, sometimes last minute, nearly miraculous victories against both Nashville and Edmonton. In game 4 of the Oilers series, they tried for a miracle, but ended on the opposite end of one... the Oilers scored in the last minute, not the Canucks. Canuck victories have been dependent on them getting extremely good play from their goaltenders. It is clear the Canucks are not generating enough offense to maintain the puck in the O-Zone... therefore they are not able to maintain puck possession, and their opponents are taking advantage of this failure to generate offense by controlling puck possession and maintaining the puck in the Canucks' D-Zone. In the Nashville series the Canucks were able to hold off the Preds... can they do the same versus two of the top players in the league? Hockey is a team game... the play of the Canucks as a team is the problem... not one or two players. None of the Canuck offensive lines are dominating their opponent... all their lines are constantly on the defensive... even the Canucks' top line. The Canucks have been unable to maintain sustained pressure except a few minutes of a few periods. Tocchet has not re-shuffled his lines or made any significant changes... he has tinkered a bit, with 3rd and 4th line players. His basic lineup, has his best three centers, (and 3 of his 4 best top six players) split up and placed on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines. Miller/Lindholm/Pettersson. His top line has two top sixers... his top scorer in Miller and 4th best scorer in Boeser, and the team's best 4th liner in Suter. (Suter could play 3rd line center in a pinch) His 2nd line, (yes this is his second line, you can see that in both in ice time and personnel) has one top sixer in Lindholm, and his two top 3rd liners, in Garland and Joshua. (Garland plays like a top sixer quite often, but not always... this is clearly the 2nd best Canuck line in terms of players) His 3rd line has one top six player in Pettersson, and two 4th liners, Mikheyev and Karlsson. (Karlsson has potential to eventually be a top sixer, but he is a Rookie, has two playoff games and in normal circumstances would be playing on the 4th line... Mikheyev has been a bust for most of 2023/2024... except when Kuzmenko was on the Pettersson line... but has not scored in 40+ games) His 4th line has two 4th liners. (Aman, Lafferty) and one third line center... Blueger. This game and last, Karlsson was switched in for Hoglander and Aman was switched in for De Giuseppe. There was no real improvement in play. The system and the lineups we are seeing on the ice are Tocchet's... this is his plan and his design. His system emphasizes defense and checking... he does not tolerate players who can't play defense to his standards. The Oilers series is tied after 4 games... first game was a 3rd period comeback victory for the Canucks, well deserved. Second game was dominated by the Oilers, who fell behind initially, but came back to win in OT on a flukey goal. The third game was absolutely dominated offensively by the Oilers in terms of shots and Zone time, but the Canucks managed the win due to their opportunistic forecheck, hitting and scoring. 4th game was also dominated by the Oilers in both shots and O-Zone time, Canucks nearly forced OT, but took their foot off the gas in the last minute and got 'Canucked' with a late goal. Oilers have had a lot more chances than the Canucks... and have complained about hitting the post a lot. That is the Oiler shooter's fault, but it still tells you they are getting a lot more chances. The pattern for this series is clear. High powered Oilers offense plus lousy D and goalies versus misfiring, low chance Canuck offense plus good D and goalie. Who is going to win? I think it is a toss up right now... which it should not be. This series should play to the Canuck advantages... we have better D and goalies, and our offense was one of the best in the league and better balanced. That compares well with an Oilers team which can score in buckets, but which had a questionable defense. But for some reason our O-Lines can't get going. That's where coaching comes in. When your lines can't generate offense, you start to mix and match and try different combinations. But Tocchet seems to be rigid in his basic line structure... he seems reluctant to change them. He seems to be more concerned with defensive checking than offensive possibilities. But his decisions are leaving the team offensively floundering. Isn't it time to look at other options?... The best defense is playing with the puck in the opposing D-Zone. Why is a proven goal scorer and point getter, Elias Pettersson, who had thirty goal seasons the last three years, as well as 100 pt and 89 pt seasons in the last two, playing on the third line, with 4th liners as wingers? Throughout his career, whenever Pettersson has been played with talented wingers, he has produced. This year, for some reason, after Kuzmenko fell out of favour and even after that player was traded for Lindholm, Tocchet has decided to play Pettersson with 4th liners. His production fell as soon as that happened. That can be seen very easily when you look at his 2023/2024 offensive game by game stats: https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/p/petteel01/gamelog/2024 Pettersson played with Kuzmenko for the first 20 games of the season, up to Nov. 11th... had 30 points. After that he was placed with 4th liners except for a brief period in January when the Lotto line was re-united and he won NHL player of the week, putting up 12 points with 7 goals and 5 assists in 5 games. In total, his 2023/2024 production with top six wingers on his line averages out to 1.68 pts per game, when he is with 4th liners, his production is 0.82 pts per game. So I have to ask... for example, why is Pettersson not playing on the first line... along side Boeser and Miller... a line which proved itself many times in the past. Or why Pettersson does not get some better players added to his line... for example, Lindholm. Blueger could replace Lindholm in the line with Garland and Joshua... that combination was great earlier in the season. There are several other options... I don't need to go into all of them, I am sure you can look at the possibilities. Maybe this team will prevail over the Oilers. Canucks do have home ice advantage. But personally I think the risk the Oilers will start to score on their chances instead of hitting the post has to be considered. Its up to Tocchet to adapt and structure his team to the demands of the opponent they are facing. He should do this. Edited May 15 by -Buzzsaw- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sativika Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) Long post. Read the whole thing! Buzzsaw; your talent for proper punctuation and sentence structure is to be commended. I wish more posters in CFF, or any forum for that matter, would try and do the same. It's so difficult to read a whole block of letters formed into words without periods, commas and spaces. But I digress. I'm rambling. On to topic......... I tend to agree. I mean, I'm no NHL coach and who am I to dole out advice as such to a potential Jack Adams winner. But..............dude's gotta do something, man! I get that we're kind of inexperienced in the concept of playoff hockey. And not just the players, but our head coach as well. I believe this is Tocchet's first dance in NHL playoffs as a head coach, no???!?!!?? If so, he's learning too. We all know that JR/PA were working to find another winger of impact for the team by trade deadline earlier. Also pursuing another defenseman in Tanev. Alas it was not to be and therefore we'd have no choice but to rock who we had come playoff time. A good lineup to be sure, but missing those elements for assured playoff success. When you think of it, we really only possess four top sixers in JTM, Flow, Petey and Lindholm. The 3rd line, Daks, Blueger, Garly were touted as such all season. Everyone else jumped around and were tried up and down; including Daks, Blueger and Garly! But y'all know that already. So really, that's what we had to work with come playoffs. For sure we had a stellar season and being crowned the top dogs in the Pacific division was a good thing. For what the experts and pundits had said at the beginning of the season, well? We showed them, eh? A new coach in Tocch's got us that identity we've been so lacking, and JR/PA's moves to bring in big ass dmen shored up that aspect of things. But other than bringing in Lindholm and perhaps Mika, there seemingly wasn't much more regarding the offensive side of things. Suter and Blueger certainly weren't acquired for their offensive prowess. Offensively, much was expected by existing players in the roster, Daks, Garly, Hogz and perhaps PDG, Aman and Podz. I dunno man. Perhaps I'm being a homer here but, there's something that can be worked out. Daks and Garly were the biggest risers of those named. You can put Hogz there too. But of these three, are they top Sixers?!?!?!?!?? Is Sutter?!?!!?? PDG? Okay. The playoffs. To me as it is right now? We've exceeded any expectations thus far. My expectations as well as the pundits. I'm loving' the hell out of what I'm witness to this playoffs with our Canucks. To be critical of what goes on within the games and what can be done to counter adversity and such is totally up to RT. Perhaps going back to THE THIRD LINE for a start. Keep Flow and JTM together with Suter and.....I dunno..........Petey-Lindholm with?!?!?!?!???? you tell me, man! Cheers. Go Canucks Go!!!!! Edited May 15 by Sativika Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Too much script to read. As for the Lotto line, it works in short bursts. It's risky, maybe it's time for that risk. Having last change matters. As for EP. Hogs earned his ice time this year, was playing 10-11 minutes a game and scoring at over 20 goals a game pace ... all EV strength, was it 25? That's above average second line production in this league. Not sure why his ability to score has dried up. More then Pearson ever scored as our top middle six player in the Horvat era. Mikheyev was a middle six player in TO. Capable of 20 goals a year...A solid 3rd liner. Who knows why every time he's set up or has a clear shot, he shoots a muffin into the logo. Lindholm is playing too well with Garland and Joshua, to break that line up. They also take a lot of defensive zone draws and responsible for getting the puck up ice. Agree we don't have a "pair" for EP. His line has been average at best, bad often. His body is being exposed, going back to Vegas, the league's team have the book on how to play him and so far he hasn't been able to break through that. Sedins had the same problem for years when they first joined the Canucks, wasn't until the lockout and the new rules before they were able to break free of that. Adding EP to Brocks and Millers line is definitely an option. Thing is, who's the mucker? EP isn't much of a mucker, as in the guy first in on the forecheck, to start the o-zone time. Brock and Miller both will do this, however one of them is now taken off their post to do Suter's job. Taking Lindholm off the Thirst line or whatever you want to call it, and having him center EP is an option. However they haven't played well together (Lindholm was injured) and the time to experiment with that likely would have been in the regular season. Linden was critical of EPs play. So have others, going back to the regular season. I'm sure he's playing with something, most of these guys are by now too. Didn't have any problems playing with Goldobin. Who's not in the league anymore. When he's on, you can stick him with anyone and it just works. He's not on, and this becomes a big risk. One way to approach this, is double shift EP and reduce that lines overall minutes. Have him come out with Brock and Miller for the O-zone draws when their line is up. And go from there. If McDavid and Draisatl can play half a game ... We absolutely don't have all the data. Maybe he's injured and the minutes get expressed somewhat as a result. More likely though, Tochett is giving ice time based on line construction and how much they've earned it. Right now, and going back to half way through the NSH series, Lindholm's line deserves it. Both Garland and Joshua have been great, Joshua banging guys and Garland has been superb. One goal ... and a PP one for EP. That doesn't actually equal earning the ice time. Brock and Miller are more than carrying their share of the load. Messing with lines just to get EP going is very very risky. He's still got his PP time right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I'm only replying here because this reply is short, and most people will read it Have a nice day! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat land fish Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 3 minutes ago, HKSR said: I'm only replying here because this reply is short, and most people will read it Have a nice day! My favorite post of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Lamora Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Too long, didn’t read. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce000 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, HKSR said: I'm only replying here because this reply is short, and most people will read it Have a nice day! Omg you're right, I did read your post! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIAHN Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Sorry.....EP needs to get his head out of his ass, or he will be played like this forever when it counts! I have said this more than once....8 million and surely 11.6 million dollar players do not play like he is playing he needs to move his feet more and shoot more. Do not even go as far as even strength...look at his play on the power play.....in general, not that of a 11.6 million dollar player....he should be creating more, shooting more and scoring more! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIAHN Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 About last nights game, though................what is our #7 defenseman doing on the ice with 40 seconds left of regular time? The coaches, should have known better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rychicken Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I read the OP, and agree with some parts, disagree with others. One consideration that has not been mentioned a lot - home ice advantage, and last change. I think this is important when considering whether to "stack" the top line (lotto line) or not. It would make defending us easier. I think we see the Lotto line tomorrow, when coach can use that home / last change advantage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, JIAHN said: Sorry.....EP needs to get his head out of his ass, or he will be played like this forever when it counts! I have said this more than once....8 million and surely 11.6 million dollar players do not play like he is playing he needs to move his feet more and shoot more. Do not even go as far as even strength...look at his play on the power play.....in general, not that of a 11.6 million dollar player....he should be creating more, shooting more and scoring more! You know, I think this might be at a stage with Pettersson where they seriously need to sit him down and ask him if they need to sit him for a game. If this is physical, then maybe he needs rest. If this is psychological, then maybe a night in the press box watching, might give him some perspective? I really don't know what would snap him out of this. If this was just that he isn't producing but was playing well defensively and is creating loose pucks in the offensive zone then that would be something, but his play is leading directly to opposition goals as well. At the moment, as much as I love what he is capable of, he's a liability on the ice every night. I have no question about what he's capable of, but I'm getting concerned about his mental toughness over the long term. We saw what he did at the start of this season and even in the bubble. This is NOT the same player! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Buzzsaw- Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 3 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: If this was just that he isn't producing but was playing well defensively and is creating loose pucks in the offensive zone then that would be something, but his play is leading directly to opposition goals as well. At the moment, as much as I love what he is capable of, he's a liability on the ice every night. Show examples where his play led to opposition goals. On the other hand, for example, his defensive play has definitely helped prevent opposition goals... one example, McDavid semi-breakaway in Game 1... he got back and swept the puck away at the last moment. And he has contributed offensively even if he has not gotten on the stats sheet... as for example, faceoff win back to Boeser, who passed to Hughes, back to Boeser who put the shot in off Joshua's leg to tie the game 2-2. No he is not playing as well as he has in the past... as I have said in other posts... a lot of that is a result of who he is playing with. 1.68 points per game when he is playing with at least one top six linemate... 0.82 points per game when he is playing with two 4th liners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 45 minutes ago, -Buzzsaw- said: Show examples where his play led to opposition goals. On the other hand, for example, his defensive play has definitely helped prevent opposition goals... one example, McDavid semi-breakaway in Game 1... he got back and swept the puck away at the last moment. And he has contributed offensively even if he has not gotten on the stats sheet... as for example, faceoff win back to Boeser, who passed to Hughes, back to Boeser who put the shot in off Joshua's leg to tie the game 2-2. No he is not playing as well as he has in the past... as I have said in other posts... a lot of that is a result of who he is playing with. 1.68 points per game when he is playing with at least one top six linemate... 0.82 points per game when he is playing with two 4th liners. I don't have time to go back through replays and look at different plays, but if you think that his play is helping us in any way right now, would love to see examples of that. In terms of evidence of play, let's simply look at in the post season, there are 3 guys who are minus players as per NHL stats. Mikheyev - 4 Hoglander - 2 Pettersson - 2 Even Juulsen and Cole are +1 If you think Pettersson has been anything other than weak on the puck and is missing about 3 gears that we know he's capable of, then I think you're watching a different player than the rest of us. My point of concern is, he went through this at the start of last year as well, he couldn't make plays, couldn't score and he managed to get himself turned around and start playing again. I don't know if it's a physical issue or a mental issue, but this is not the guy that we saw in the bubble or the guy who played the first 20 or 25 games of this season. Something is off. When he's on his game, we all know and have seen what he can do. When he plays with Miller and Boeser, I haven't seen him being effective in the last 40 or so games of the season, plus the playoffs. Anyone else want to chime in on this? I'm not trying to be overly hard on him, I'm just saying that something isn't right and everyone in the media sees it too. Here's the clip from Boudreau from earlier today: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck You Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, HKSR said: I'm only replying here because this reply is short, and most people will read it Have a nice day! ...because this reply is... Stopped reading there, Way to long of a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayinblack Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, Sativika said: Perhaps going back to THE THIRD LINE for a start. Keep Flow and JTM together with Suter and.....I dunno..........Petey-Lindholm with?!?!?!?!???? you tell me, man! Cheers. Go Canucks Go!!!!! Petey - Lindholm - Hoglander --> Swedish mafia Mik - JT- Boeser --> maybe Mik gets going ? Garly - Blueger - Joshua --> best 3rd line in hockey PDG - Suter - Lafferty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crobar Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I also have seen Petey cost us more than help us in these playoffs, not saying trade him but Tocchet should hold him accountable just like he does with other players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sell.the.team Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I have been a little underwhelmed by Toch these playoffs. On one hand I commend him for being a steady, level headed presence. On the other hand, I think he's been a little too passive. He's barely made any roster adjustments. The ones he has made are head scratchers. I don't understand how LK is in the lineup now. His point production in the AHL playoffs was sub-par. Would much rather see Raty or Podz. Hoglander / Petey / Mik is broken and those guys need to be redeployed to play to their strengths. We cannot win without a second line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 As far as the Lotto line and why Tocchet isn't going to them, this is a good breakdown below ... (from Feb. 20) "In seven of their nine games together, including that game against the Rangers, the Lotto Line had a negative corsi, indicating that their opponent had more shot attempts than the Canucks when the Lotto Line was on the ice at 5-on-5. Looking at expected goals, which takes into account shot quality and not just quantity, the Canucks were out-chanced as well in those seven games. "It wasn’t just that the Lotto Line was out-shot but that they were out-shot significantly by teams like the Buffalo Sabres, Arizona Coyotes, and Chicago Blackhawks — teams at or near the bottom of the NHL standings. "In addition, after their initial burst of scoring, the goals dried up. The line started out strong in their first four games together, with the Canucks scoring 10 goals at 5-on-5 with the Lotto Line on the ice. But in their last five games together, the Canucks had just one goal at 5-on-5 with the Lotto Line on the ice." Why haven't the Canucks gone back to the Lotto Line? - Vancouver Is Awesome Tocchet knows that line does give us a shot in the arm and boost, but he also knows it can be a big liability. Tough call. It either works or it doesn't. Stakes are high in the playoffs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscience Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Holy ever loving fk does pete looked completely checked out in his presser today! Incredibly concerning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscience Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 https://x.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1790819993401311293 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Time to just play our game. No bs after whistles. Hit lots but do not go looking for it.Rush them every play and let them make mistakes. We will win playing hard as a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 8 minutes ago, Conscience said: https://x.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1790819993401311293 Woah- looks like he's been on a huge bender. some on check this guy's thyroid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 43 minutes ago, Conscience said: Holy ever loving fk does pete looked completely checked out in his presser today! Incredibly concerning 41 minutes ago, Conscience said: https://x.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1790819993401311293 31 minutes ago, Gurn said: Woah- looks like he's been on a huge bender. some on check this guy's thyroid. Purely speculating here, but I think he's dealing with something pretty big off the ice (health, or emotional, or mental). He's giving canned responses, but I get the sense that there's quite a bit of turbulence behind the mask and he's either not prepared to share it or he's been told not to share it (not that sharing it with the media will ever be a good thing, given how rabid and frothing-at-the-mouth many of those guys are). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIAHN Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Just a random question here.............but do you actually think any team right now would risk taking on Pettersson's 8 year X 11.6 million dollar contract for free right now? Seriously......asking for a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 We get to the offensive zone, then chip the puck in. If we win the battle along the boards we generate a shot “towards” the net. We have 2 things working against us. We dump and chase exclusively, and we can’t hit the net. We even do this on the power play. It’s excruciating. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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