Have you run into the argument. "if you haven't played you don't know"

[grumpworsley]

Just curious how much credence people put into the statement  "If you haven't played the game you don't know". In my opinion it is usually used to shut down a disagreement or discussion. I gotta admit I respect Friedman's comments as an informed sports journalist whether he be right or wrong, he generally has a good argument to back up his claims.

[Alflives]

Depends on what the comments are about. If it’s a discussion about what it’s like in an nhl room or to play in nhl games then for sure those who have experienced that have an understanding better than those who haven’t. If it’s discussion about other aspects of the game (number crunching, building a winning team, etc) then playing in the league doesn’t matter. 

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

I haven't really ever played, but I have helped my son (14 in June) elevate his play to a level that he, his Mom, nor his coaches thought possible.

[gwarrior]

I played roller hockey 1 year. I was 8. I was a goalie. And I never went back. Anytime I lost it was always my fault. Had nothing to do with the guys allowing a 3 on 0 breakaway 3 times in the 3rd, and I stopped 2 of them. So i can kind of see if you haven't played, you don't know. I think that's why I kind of feel bad for a goalie getting shelled and getting ZERO help.

[Satchmo]

If you truly know something it shouldn't matter much how you acquired the knowledge.  As Yogi Berra said: “You can observe a lot by just watching”.

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

My "playing experience" was mostly playing floor hockey or street hockey, where my strengths were as a defenceman or defensive center.

 

"Non-competitive leagues," lol!

 

When I was working for Schneider Electric, in the Victoria area, there was enough interest and participation that we had our own league, among company employees. It got pretty competitive at times.

Edited June 1 by Drive-By Body Pierce

[Dumb Nuck]

55 minutes ago, Drive-By Body Pierce said:

My "playing experience" was mostly playing floor hockey or street hockey, where my strengths were as a defenceman or defensive center.

 

"Non-competitive leagues," lol!

 

When I was working for Schneider Electric, in the Victoria area, there was enough interest and participation that we had our own league, among company employees. It got pretty competitive at times.

I scored a hat trick on a NHL goalie, one went in of my head, one off my ass and the third was actually a pretty nice wrist shot then Peter Nedved hit on my wife to be, what do I know?

 

 

 

Edited June 1 by Dumb Nuck

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

8 minutes ago, Dumb Nuck said:

I scored a hat trick on a NHL goalie, one went in of my head, one off my ass and the third was actually a pretty nice wrist shot then Peter Nedved hit on my wife to be, what do I know?

 

 

 

 

That's awesome!  

[Mr Wrong]

I rather listen to someone who hasn’t played the game but has something to say than to someone who has won it all but is dumb as f. Haha. 
that’s why Bieksa is special. He has seen it all and is a smart guy that is fun listening to. 

[tas]

it's a statement used by blowhards as an attempt to gatekeep and give themselves a phony sense of authority. 

 

disregard it out of hand because it's idiocy. 

Edited June 1 by tas

[Ghostsof1915]

 

Hasn't there been 2-3 people on CDC and on here that made claims they were either a junior player, a pro scout for the Avalanche?

I would respect a player that played junior. But having a brother and sister that were serious competitors in middle distance running and Football.

My brother playing in the late 70's early 80's in football, knew he was one injury away from his career vanishing. He played his final years in minor football then

went out into carpentry. My sister was good enough in the early 70's go to the provincials. But my Dad was her coach. And she broke under the pressure. She stopped

running altogether. It took her 20 years before she tried running for enjoyment. Now her knees won't allow her to run, and it breaks her heart because it's something that she loves to do. There's the mental aspect of sports and the wear and tear that non athletes don't get. The amount of work and sacrifice these players devote themselves too is amazing to me. It's all the more sad to see players who have all the gifts to play top level sports. But they just mentally don't either like it, or have fun. But if you love a sport. But just don't like competition I understand that as well.

 

 

[GrammaInTheTub]

Like others have noted, I think it’s useful for certain circumstances (like understanding how certain injuries impact the body mechanics required to play the game) if the poster is also well-reasoned. For other things like roster construction, line construction, contracts, advanced stats, etc., it’s all fair game. 

When used to gatekeep it’s obvious and it just serves to lose the poster credibility with me.

[awalk]

It helps to have played the game you are talking about. 

[grumpworsley]

35 minutes ago, awalk said:

It helps to have played the game you are talking about. 

Maybe 

[awalk]

4 minutes ago, grumpworsley said:

Maybe 

It does. And I'm not saying "you don't know", I'm just saying it helps. 

[RupertKBD]

3 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Hasn't there been 2-3 people on CDC and on here that made claims they were either a junior player, a pro scout for the Avalanche?

I would respect a player that played junior. But having a brother and sister that were serious competitors in middle distance running and Football.

My brother playing in the late 70's early 80's in football, knew he was one injury away from his career vanishing. He played his final years in minor football then

went out into carpentry. My sister was good enough in the early 70's go to the provincials. But my Dad was her coach. And she broke under the pressure. She stopped

running altogether. It took her 20 years before she tried running for enjoyment. Now her knees won't allow her to run, and it breaks her heart because it's something that she loves to do. There's the mental aspect of sports and the wear and tear that non athletes don't get. The amount of work and sacrifice these players devote themselves too is amazing to me. It's all the more sad to see players who have all the gifts to play top level sports. But they just mentally don't either like it, or have fun. But if you love a sport. But just don't like competition I understand that as well.

 

I played a partial season in Junior B, back in the late 70's and it's not as big of a deal as it sounds....Junior B is a distinction that doesn't exist any more. (they rebranded it as "Tier 2 Junior A". All of the former Junior B teams started playing against teams like the Penticton Vees and Vernon Vipers, getting their asses kicked on a regular basis)

 

As an example of the level of play, I was on the local Midget rep team a couple of years earlier. We had won a provincial championship (in those days, called the Wrigley Tournament and now the Telus Cup) and needed a "tune up" for the year end provincial playoffs. (which was completely separate from the Wrigley) We played a 2 game weekend set against the Spruce Kings and beat them both times. (They had already been eliminated from playoff contention, so their hearts weren't really in it, but still....)

 

Anyway, I think there are definitely situations where having "been there, done that", does give you some insight. Things like what happens in the dressing room, for instance. A lot of  non-players picture a scenario where the coach comes in between periods and gives the "Remember the Titans" speech, motivating the team to go out there and win.

 

I can tell you that it's more common that the coach says very little and what he does say would be censored on network TV.....

 

Same with between period "adjustments". Usually, that is more a case of the coach switching of lines, or defensive pairings, than it is saying something like, "Okay boys, this period we're going to start using the Left Win Lock", or whatever....

 

As far as the business side of the game goes, (contracts, UFA statuses, trades, etc) I think there are probably people out there every bit as knowledgeable, if not moreso than me....(depending on how closely they follow such things) I think the fact that there is so much information available in this day and age, has narrowed that gap to a point where it's not really a thing anymore.

 

2 cents from a former player....

Edited June 1 by RupertKBD

[Diamonds]

55 minutes ago, awalk said:

It helps to have played the game you are talking about. 

 

It depends what you're discussing. If you're talking about a player's work ethic for example then it doesn't really matter. But of course if your talking about things like intricacies of a faceoff setup and the roles of certain players then yes it definitely helps.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

 

Hasn't there been 2-3 people on CDC and on here that made claims they were either a junior player, a pro scout for the Avalanche?

I would respect a player that played junior. But having a brother and sister that were serious competitors in middle distance running and Football.

My brother playing in the late 70's early 80's in football, knew he was one injury away from his career vanishing. He played his final years in minor football then

went out into carpentry. My sister was good enough in the early 70's go to the provincials. But my Dad was her coach. And she broke under the pressure. She stopped

running altogether. It took her 20 years before she tried running for enjoyment. Now her knees won't allow her to run, and it breaks her heart because it's something that she loves to do. There's the mental aspect of sports and the wear and tear that non athletes don't get. The amount of work and sacrifice these players devote themselves too is amazing to me. It's all the more sad to see players who have all the gifts to play top level sports. But they just mentally don't either like it, or have fun. But if you love a sport. But just don't like competition I understand that as well.

 

 

I don't know if he made it over to this board, but Snypers on the old board was the head scout for Elite Prospects (Curtis Joe) and it was verified. Of course we also had the guy claiming he was the real Rob Zepp.

[awalk]

7 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

 

It depends what you're discussing. If you're talking about a player's work ethic for example then it doesn't really matter. But of course if your talking about things like intricacies of a faceoff setup and the roles of certain players then yes it definitely helps.

 

 

I don't know if he made it over to this board, but Snypers on the old board was the head scout for Elite Prospects (Curtis Joe) and it was verified. Of course we also had the guy claiming he was the real Rob Zepp.

 

 

If I'm talking about work ethic of a basketball player to someone who has played basketball their entire life, I'm going to defer to them as knowing more about what it takes work ethic wise to be a good basketball player. I can speak to it generally, but I'd give them a bit more respect on their knowledge. If I'm talking hockey, I feel confident knowing a bit more about the work that goes into it than someone who has never played. I respect they can speak to it generally, but I think it helps to have played.

[Ghostsof1915]

7 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I played a partial season in Junior B, back in the late 70's and it's not as big of a deal as it sounds....Junior B is a distinction that doesn't exist any more. (they rebranded it as "Tier 2 Junior A". All of the former Junior B teams started playing against teams like the Penticton Vees and Vernon Vipers, getting their asses kicked on a regular basis)

 

As an example of the level of play, I was on the local Midget rep team a couple of years earlier. We had won a provincial championship (in those days, called the Wrigley Tournament and now the Telus Cup) and needed a "tune up" for the year end provincial playoffs. (which was completely separate from the Wrigley) We played a 2 game weekend set against the Spruce Kings and beat them both times. (They had already been eliminated from playoff contention, so their hearts weren't really in it, but still....)

 

Anyway, I think there are definitely situations where having "been there, done that", does give you some insight. Things like what happens in the dressing room, for instance. A A lot of  non-players picture a scenario where the coach comes in between periods and gives the "Remember the Titans" speech, motivating the team to go out there and win.

 

I can tell you that it's more common that the coach says very little and what he does say would be censored on network TV.....

 

Same with between period "adjustments". Usually, that is more a case of the coach switching of lines, or defensive pairings, than it is saying something like, "Okay boys, this period we're going to start using the Left Win Lock", or whatever....

 

As far as the business side of the game goes, (contracts, UFA statuses, trades, etc) I think there are probably people out there every bit as knowledgeable, if not moreso than me....(depending on how closely they follow such things) I think the fact that there is so much information available in this day and age, has narrowed that gap to a point where it's not really a thing anymore.

 

2 cents from a former player....

Exactly. This is more day to day stuff that a lot of fans don't see. Which is why I admire guys who even just play a single game in the NHL. 90+% of players don't get that far.

To be able to make it as a regular in the AHL or ECHL is viewed by fans as some kind of failure. (Or Bustaroo as a certain member here says). Bottom line is there's 640 regular jobs in the NHL. Maybe 768 with the reserves and fringe players. Saying "You never played"  there's an element of truth to that. But it isn't the end all be all.

 

[RupertKBD]

2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Exactly. This is more day to day stuff that a lot of fans don't see. Which is why I admire guys who even just play a single game in the NHL. 90+% of players don't get that far.

To be able to make it as a regular in the AHL or ECHL is viewed by fans as some kind of failure. (Or Bustaroo as a certain member here says). Bottom line is there's 640 regular jobs in the NHL. Maybe 768 with the reserves and fringe players. Saying "You never played"  there's an element of truth to that. But it isn't the end all be all.

 

I call it "riding the buses".....If you've done the road trips to someone else's barn, then you know something about the life of a full time player.

[BCNeil]

19 hours ago, grumpworsley said:

Just curious how much credence people put into the statement  "If you haven't played the game you don't know". In my opinion it is usually used to shut down a disagreement or discussion. I gotta admit I respect Friedman's comments as an informed sports journalist whether he be right or wrong, he generally has a good argument to back up his claims.

 

Sort of like you can never criticize any play ever.  Because these are NHL players.  With even the worst being a much better player than you ever were.

 

[grumpworsley]

I think each discussion analysis should stand on its own merit backed up by facts and not be subject to the appeal to authority fallacy but that's just me. Some people believe personal experience is a substitute for factual and actual  analysis 

[chris12345]

23 hours ago, grumpworsley said:

Just curious how much credence people put into the statement  "If you haven't played the game you don't know". In my opinion it is usually used to shut down a disagreement or discussion. I gotta admit I respect Friedman's comments as an informed sports journalist whether he be right or wrong, he generally has a good argument to back up his claims.

There is a level of knowledge that can only be acquired by playing. That doesn't mean if you haven't played you don't know what you are talking about - and if you have played it doesn't guarantee you know what you are talking about.

 

To obtain the most knowledge you need to have played even at a minor level.

 

I find sometimes minor leagues can teach you a lot because the difference in skill level is wide. The difference at the NHL is very narrow.

 

For example, you should play beer league with a dman without gap control. That'll convince you to yell at Cole a lot.

[Johnny]

On 5/31/2024 at 5:57 PM, grumpworsley said:

Just curious how much credence people put into the statement  "If you haven't played the game you don't know". In my opinion it is usually used to shut down a disagreement or discussion. I gotta admit I respect Friedman's comments as an informed sports journalist whether he be right or wrong, he generally has a good argument to back up his claims.

Its a logical fallacy 

 

pulling knowledge from past experience can be useful but it doesnt mean its better than scrutiny

 

As soon as people refer back to their playing days I actually just ignore their opinion. If one feels they need to provide their credentials besides their opinion it tells me they dont have confidence in their opinion alone and need a trump card to give it more weight

[RupertKBD]

On 6/1/2024 at 1:07 PM, BCNeil said:

Sort of like you can never criticize any play ever.  Because these are NHL players.  With even the worst being a much better player than you ever were.

 

For me, the guys really deserving of criticism are the guys who could be so much more than they ended up, but just didn't have the heart or the will....A guy like Robbie Schremp is a good example. Elite level talent, but no work ethic to go a long with it.

 

OTOH, you have guys like John Tonelli and Alex Burrows. Nowhere near as gifted, but who basically willed their way into a remarkable pro career...