The Sharks Could Be Open to Trading Logan Couture and Tomas Hertl

[AnthonyG]

4 hours ago, Riddikulus said:

Touting Dorsett and Sbisa as "main pieces" but leaving Tanev completely out is hilarious. Then saying that Hamhuis was a "free acquisition" and "not hard to pull that one off". None of Benning's pieces that you listed were "hard to pull off".

 

But these points are lost on you as your posting history indicates you worship at the altar of Jim Benning. I have never seen someone fanboy this hard over an utter failure of a GM. That moron that you keep defending shit all over himself and this team and left a mess for the next guy to clean up. I am sure in response I am just going to get some nonsense about Gillis despite Benning having 8 years and accomplishing squat.

Ohhh I’m sorry is that you Mike? Im sorry my phone deleted Tanev out and I didnt notice. I’ll fix that for you at once! Just so you are aware, I just had to retype my opening sentence because I touched the screen and it deleted an entire run on sentence.

Oh and by the way I only added the trash that Gillis put on that roster to show you clowns how much of an “Impact” he had. Here lets just take out everyone but Tanev and Hamhuis… WOW. What f***ing impact he had on that team. 

Lmao how hard is it to contend in free agency when a player openly states they want to play for their home town team instead of having to actually convince a player to sign with us over 29 other teams?

 

Benning had to convince guys to come end their careers in a god damn rebuild. LOL
 

Okay Mr. Wise one, both Rutherford and Allvin believed we would be a playoff team this season. Rutherford said it would be an utter failure if they didnt make the playoffs… PA went and doubled down on this team last off season, his moves left us further away from a playoff spot than the year prior. what does this have to say about 

1) Our current GM and POHO

2) Your intelligence level along with the rest of you Benning haters?

 

You think Gillass was a good GM yet he did what exactly? 
 

Jim Benning had to deal with alllll Gillis NTC, M-NTC and NMCs, his lovely gift of the cap recapture penalty, thats fair to blame Gillis for that right? Because you all blame Benning for a frozen cap that ultimately handcuffed him…. Oh and he left Benning with nearly zero prospects or valuable trade chips that didnt hold the keys to their own destination. 2 play off appearances and one near miss while rebuilding from the ground up is quite impressive. Didnt need a Matthews, McDavid, Crosby or Ovechkin for their generational talent to help us achieve playoffs.

 

Gillis is the most overrated GM he was an absolute failure of a GM. Took a contending core and ran it directly into the ground. 5 years and we went from SCF appearance, back to back presidents trophy winners and then… golfing a couple seasons later?? Needing to desperately rebuild??? No depth, no prospects… disgruntled Kesler, pissed off Luongo, Torturella, 2 #1 goalies shipped out, had to go through the growing pains of Markstrom, no real valuable trade chips, aged out well past their prime roster that was mostly drafted or acquired by Burke and Nonis. Gillis left nothing but f***ing devestation behind.

 

 

Who’s job was harder, like really. Mike f***ing Gillis, who was handed a contending roster, where his mistakes are masked by the fact we could make playoffs… for a handful of years under his destructive eye… or Jim Benning who had to start completely over, rebuild an organization from the ground up and any mistakes he makes are amplified because of the lack of talent in the organization. The fact you fans had such high expectations of turning this shithole around in under 8 years is absolutely f***ing delusional.

Toronto took how long?

Edmonton took how long and how many 1st overalls?

Buffalo?

New Jersey?

Florida?

Columbus?

Arizona?

shall I continue???

 

 

BOS, STL, LAK, WSH, PIT, just to name a few, have remained highly competitive teams for nearly 15-20 years. Whats Gillis’s excuse for not keeping the ball rolling?

Edited September 26, 2023 by AnthonyG

[MatchesMalone]

11 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Makes sense to me, though I would caution against getting rid of all vets on rebuilding team.

 

All that said, Grier's statement seems like one any GM would say about any player. If a GM wouldn't listen to trade offers when a player says they want to be moved, what kind of GM is that?

 

Yeah they've done a good job of tearing it down a little bit at a time. I've been really impressed with the Sharks' process so far. They can afford to be patient with these veterans and wait until their values are at a high. This idea that they should have traded Hertl when he was UFA is pretty silly. Not sure how a rental is supposed to be worth more than a player locked up with term.

 

Couture's contract isn't great and so they'll likely wait another year or two and let some term tick off of that one before they can get decent value for him. Hertl, on the other hand, every contending team in the league would love to have and someone will end up paying a premium for him.

 

This will be their last proper year of the tear-down as they start to get the first wave of top prospects in - Mukhamadullin, Thrun, Chmelevski, Eklund, Bordeleau, Coe, Gushchin - and from there they'll be on to the actual rebuild phase of letting the kids play and develop while adding complementary pieces to support them. My best guess is Hertl is gone around deadline and Couture sticks around for another year or two. After this year they'll have a couple more lean years with gradual improvements, but by the time that first wave is entering their primes and the next wave with Smith, Musty, Bystedt, Halttunen, Lund, Havelid, starts to show up this Sharks team will be dangerous.

[AnthonyG]

5 hours ago, Provost said:

Effectively all those “Burke” players were on contracts signed by Gillis, same as in the peak President’s Trophy years.

 

So ya, it was his roster.  Same as JT Miller is now a Rutherford/Allvin player on this roster.  They decided to re-sign him and allocate the cap to him… he is part the team they are deciding to build.

 

It doesn’t matter who drafted him or who traded him.

 

PS.  Eddie Lack player half that season and had a better save percentage than Ryan Miller did.

 

PPS.  Go to bed Weisbrod and stop

trolling forums just because you can’t find a job.

 

 

Lmao I’m still chuckling at how pathetic your argument is, lmao strawman moving the goal posts as far as possible…. Gillis’s roster…. 

[cripplereh]

Will be back interesting to see who traded for them and the cost.

 

Hope we do not over pay to get one.

[Alflives]

10 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Ohhh I’m sorry is that you Mike? Im sorry my phone deleted Tanev out and I didnt notice. I’ll fix that for you at once! Just so you are aware, I just had to retype my opening sentence because I touched the screen and it deleted an entire run on sentence.

Oh and by the way I only added the trash that Gillis put on that roster to show you clowns how much of an “Impact” he had. Here lets just take out everyone but Tanev and Hamhuis… WOW. What f***ing impact he had on that team. 

Lmao how hard is it to contend in free agency when a player openly states they want to play for their home town team instead of having to actually convince a player to sign with us over 29 other teams?

 

Benning had to convince guys to come end their careers in a god damn rebuild. LOL
 

Okay Mr. Wise one, both Rutherford and Allvin believed we would be a playoff team this season. Rutherford said it would be an utter failure if they didnt make the playoffs… PA went and doubled down on this team last off season, his moves left us further away from a playoff spot than the year prior. what does this have to say about 

1) Our current GM and POHO

2) Your intelligence level along with the rest of you Benning haters?

 

You think Gillass was a good GM yet he did what exactly? 
 

Jim Benning had to deal with alllll Gillis NTC, M-NTC and NMCs, his lovely gift of the cap recapture penalty, thats fair to blame Gillis for that right? Because you all blame Benning for a frozen cap that ultimately handcuffed him…. Oh and he left Benning with nearly zero prospects or valuable trade chips that didnt hold the keys to their own destination. 2 play off appearances and one near miss while rebuilding from the ground up is quite impressive. Didnt need a Matthews, McDavid, Crosby or Ovechkin for their generational talent to help us achieve playoffs.

 

Gillis is the most overrated GM he was an absolute failure of a GM. Took a contending core and ran it directly into the ground. 5 years and we went from SCF appearance, back to back presidents trophy winners and then… golfing a couple seasons later?? Needing to desperately rebuild??? No depth, no prospects… disgruntled Kesler, pissed off Luongo, Torturella, 2 #1 goalies shipped out, had to go through the growing pains of Markstrom, no real valuable trade chips, aged out well past their prime roster that was mostly drafted or acquired by Burke and Nonis. Gillis left nothing but f***ing devestation behind.

 

 

Who’s job was harder, like really. Mike f***ing Gillis, who was handed a contending roster, where his mistakes are masked by the fact we could make playoffs… for a handful of years under his destructive eye… or Jim Benning who had to start completely over, rebuild an organization from the ground up and any mistakes he makes are amplified because of the lack of talent in the organization. The fact you fans had such high expectations of turning this shithole around in under 8 years is absolutely f***ing delusional.

Toronto took how long?

Edmonton took how long and how many 1st overalls?

Buffalo?

New Jersey?

Florida?

Columbus?

Arizona?

shall I continue???

 

 

BOS, STL, LAK, WSH, PIT, just to name a few, have remained highly competitive teams for nearly 15-20 years. Whats Gillis’s excuse for not keeping the ball rolling?

It’s not arguable that Gillis was the President and GM during our moser successful era.

[AnthonyG]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s not arguable that Gillis was the President and GM during our moser successful era.

And its not arguable that he ran that shit straight into the ground

[DownUndaCanuck]

Not sure how much they'd get back, Couture is what, 34 and barely a 60 point player, Hertl just 29 and obviously a big strong body but again, just a 60 point guy recently and surprisingly just a two-time 30 goal scorer. Very good 2nd liner for most teams.

 

1st and a young player?

[canuck73_3]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:09 PM, Coconuts said:

 

They should have, I do think he ends up moved though

 

I think Couture stays though, I think he'd be tough to move for one but I do think he's a guy they'll keep around as a cultural building block

 

Gotta have someone in their top six and even rebuilding teams need veterans, Couture gets a bad rap in Canuck land but they could certainly do worse 

Couture gets a bad rap cause he’s got the most punchable face ever. 

[Coconuts]

13 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Couture gets a bad rap cause he’s got the most punchable face ever. 

 

Maybe, but with 4x8M remaining on his deal it's unlikely he goes anywhere, not unless the Sharks are open to retaining a significant chunk of his cap hit. 

 

Still managed 27 goals and 67 points last season though, his best showing since the 18-19 season. But with his being 35 in March it seems unlikely he'll find a taker, at least not a competitive one. 

[Snoop Hogg]

Hertl could end up in Boston as suggested earlier and Couture probably in Chicago.

[Canuckpuckluck1]

39 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Couture gets a bad rap cause he’s got the most punchable face ever. 

Thats a bold statement.... more punchable than these? 

 

 

I beg to differ!

[AnthonyG]

21 hours ago, Riddikulus said:

 Benning having 8 years and accomplishing squat.

Riddle me this. What was expected of Benning? What were YOUR expectations when he was hired? Please enlighten me, I’d love to hear it

[Alflives]

5 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

And its not arguable that he ran that shit straight into the ground

I think you’re confusing subjective which is your view based on personal bias, and objective which is about not arguable facts. The fact remains Gillis was President and GM while we won 2 President’s trophies and played 2 games with the Cup present. That’s our most successful era. This is an objective fact. 

[canuck73_3]

54 minutes ago, Canuckpuckluck1 said:

Thats a bold statement.... more punchable than these? 

 

 

I beg to differ!

Messier is right there with him 

[canuck73_3]

22 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Riddle me this. What was expected of Benning? What were YOUR expectations when he was hired? Please enlighten me, I’d love to hear it

Definitely not so low that it trumps 2 Presidents Trophies and one Win from a Cup 

Edited September 26, 2023 by canuck73_3

[AnthonyG]

9 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Definitely not so low that it trumps 2 Presidents Trophies and one Win from a Cup 

And how much of that was actually Gillis’s work?? He took that back-to-back Presidents trophy game 7 SCF team and ran it straight into the ground. Zero succession plan, virtually zero prospects from horrendous drafting, he closed our window to win, he never extended it. Why has Boston been able to make multiple cup appearances, win presidents trophies 20 years after drafting Bergeron??? 10 years after drafting the last of our core, we were done. STL has been a playoff team for ages, LAK and many other teams who have continually been able to continue competing, but us…. Nope. We went from Linden and Bure to the WCE to the Twins…. To SFA for a few years and now its the Pettersson Hughes and Demko era. 
Gillis was handed 75% of that 2010-11 roster, he sold the future and had no plan after coming that close. Benning at least gave us the next era of Canucks hockey and an era that will once again have a chance at a cup before its all said and done. 
The fact you guys praise Gillis for a team that was already in place, UFAs that basically came here and told Gillis they are playing here and not him trying to convince them is a f***ing joke. Gillis hasnt ever been offered another job lolololololololololol. What does that tell you?????? Open your bloody eyes man

 

[AnthonyG]

22 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Definitely not so low that it trumps 2 Presidents Trophies and one Win from a Cup 

If you cant tell the difference in agenda’s I feel sorry for you.

Gillis was here to win - got close and held onto that team, didnt make many changes and even at the TDL didnt want to change much in 2011-12. We got shit pumped in the 1st round. After that he was even more hopeless and our hopes of contending plummeted. Ultimately he failed at achieving his goal, what he was brought in to do.

Benning was brought in to clean up and rebuild behind the scenes. He held his picks and slowly built through the draft for 5 years and made a move to acquire JT which Im sure no one here has any complaint about. He built his teams mainly through free agency while restocking the cupboards and rebuilding the future. Benning ultimately succeeded in what he was brought here to do, rebuild the god damn future. Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller, Boeser plus alllll our upcoming prospects that either will make the team and make an impact, or hold value in a trade. 

[AnthonyG]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think you’re confusing subjective which is your view based on personal bias, and objective which is about not arguable facts. The fact remains Gillis was President and GM while we won 2 President’s trophies and played 2 games with the Cup present. That’s our most successful era. This is an objective fact. 

You could have done the same bloody job Alf. He didnt have much of an actual impact. 

[TopCheese]

Rebuilding that team is smart prob gonna load up on draft picks 

[cripplereh]

8 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

And its not arguable that he ran that shit straight into the ground

Yup then left Benning in a really bad spot.

 

Benning did some good but even worse at the end.

[Diamonds]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You could have done the same bloody job Alf. He didnt have much of an actual impact. 

I don't really know why I'm deciding to wade into this conversation, but here goes anyway. 

 

No one is saying you have to like Gillis, but attempting to downplay his decisions and moves, and in some cases even lie about them, does not strengthen your argument. All it does it make you sound like a jilted ex, not a knowledgeable hockey fan.

 

To start with, Gillis did not inherit a contending core. He inherited a transitioning group without an identity and his first year made key decisions that would lead to the contending core that came within 1 win of a Stanley Cup. That first summer he got rid of the remaining leadership group from the WCE by letting BMo walk and refusing to sit with Naslund (in addition to Linden retiring). That's every player who wore a letter gone (and followed by letting Ohlund go the next summer). Instead, he decided to invest in Kesler and the Sedins by bring in vet leaders Demitra and Sundin to mentor them. Kesler to that point was still just a 3C and credits playing with Sundin to his development as a player and leader and the Sedins had just established themselves as top line players but not yet as leaders.

 

Gillis was far from perfect. Everyone agrees his drafting was a major weakness with only 3 true NHLers to come out of his tenure in Hodgson, Hutton, and Horvat. But just because he was a shit drafter doesn't mean he was bad at everything else. His willingness to fight the NHL for a less taxing travel schedule and hiring sleep doctors to help deal with said travel schedule obviously had an impact. He pulled off one of the most lopsided trades in franchise history acquiring Ehrhoff. He brought in the heavy majority of our league-leading PK group in the likes of Malhotra, Lapierre, Glass, Higgins, and Hamhuis and even Ehrhoff averaged over 2 min/game on the PK. He added snarl that could play in Torres, Lapierre, and even Higgins and important secondary scoring in Samuelsson. Was a lot of the 2010-11 core with the organization in some capacity when Gillis took over? Sure, but he still had to invest in the right pieces and find the missing parts that turned it into the cup contender it was.

 

 

Back to the topic at hand, I don't think Hertl or Couture are useful to the Canucks at this point in time. If the Sharks retained 50% on Couture he would instantly become one of the best 3Cs in the league and could bump Miller to the wing if Miller struggles at center again, but I can't see the Sharks doing that plus Couture is already in his mid 30s. Hertl is only 8 months younger than Miller with similar stats and an almost identical contract, or in other words he would be redundant. 

[Sativika]

If a SC contending team needs to boost their lineup for a SC playoff push, then acquiring such players makes sense. Oilers, Panthers, Canes..........better served in trades with them and other such teams in the same boat. We're a long ass ways away from that scenario. 

 

For now, stay with the plan. Shore up the D, the PK, and fine tune after some playoff success.

[WSAcanuck]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:50 PM, canuck73_3 said:

Couture gets a bad rap cause he’s got the most punchable face ever. 

Marchand says hi

[WSAcanuck]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:55 PM, Diamonds said:

I don't really know why I'm deciding to wade into this conversation, but here goes anyway. 

 

No one is saying you have to like Gillis, but attempting to downplay his decisions and moves, and in some cases even lie about them, does not strengthen your argument. All it does it make you sound like a jilted ex, not a knowledgeable hockey fan.

 

To start with, Gillis did not inherit a contending core. He inherited a transitioning group without an identity and his first year made key decisions that would lead to the contending core that came within 1 win of a Stanley Cup. That first summer he got rid of the remaining leadership group from the WCE by letting BMo walk and refusing to sit with Naslund (in addition to Linden retiring). That's every player who wore a letter gone (and followed by letting Ohlund go the next summer). Instead, he decided to invest in Kesler and the Sedins by bring in vet leaders Demitra and Sundin to mentor them. Kesler to that point was still just a 3C and credits playing with Sundin to his development as a player and leader and the Sedins had just established themselves as top line players but not yet as leaders.

 

Gillis was far from perfect. Everyone agrees his drafting was a major weakness with only 3 true NHLers to come out of his tenure in Hodgson, Hutton, and Horvat. But just because he was a shit drafter doesn't mean he was bad at everything else. His willingness to fight the NHL for a less taxing travel schedule and hiring sleep doctors to help deal with said travel schedule obviously had an impact. He pulled off one of the most lopsided trades in franchise history acquiring Ehrhoff. He brought in the heavy majority of our league-leading PK group in the likes of Malhotra, Lapierre, Glass, Higgins, and Hamhuis and even Ehrhoff averaged over 2 min/game on the PK. He added snarl that could play in Torres, Lapierre, and even Higgins and important secondary scoring in Samuelsson. Was a lot of the 2010-11 core with the organization in some capacity when Gillis took over? Sure, but he still had to invest in the right pieces and find the missing parts that turned it into the cup contender it was.

 

 

Back to the topic at hand, I don't think Hertl or Couture are useful to the Canucks at this point in time. If the Sharks retained 50% on Couture he would instantly become one of the best 3Cs in the league and could bump Miller to the wing if Miller struggles at center again, but I can't see the Sharks doing that plus Couture is already in his mid 30s. Hertl is only 8 months younger than Miller with similar stats and an almost identical contract, or in other words he would be redundant. 

Exactly this. 
 

Benning was the worst GM in franchise history and that’s saying something. 

[canuck73_3]

30 minutes ago, WSAcanuck said:

Marchand says hi

Hi Brad.