US Politics Thread

[Spur1]

On 10/15/2024 at 3:13 PM, Bob Long said:

 

Oh that's not dancing.

 

That’s Trump flossing his ears. 

[aGENT]

18 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

All election results are public information. There's no hidden fraud numbers. Where are you getting this from? 

 

 

[The Lock]

28 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

I think was already a concern for some people due to advancements in technology and increased access to personal information. The difference was in 1996 7.8% of people voted by mail compared to 43.0% in 2020, now all of a sudden it is a bit of a big deal.   

 

Again, you seem adamant on not questioning why it's a "big deal". Instead, you're just accepting "that it is", even if the concern is all made up.

 

And, to be honest, your willingness to just accept that some people wouldn't be able to vote is rather concerning. Everyone should be able to vote. Plain and simple. If you don't believe this, you are an enemy of democracy itself because this is what democracy is based on.

Edited Wednesday at 11:49 PM by The Lock

[Bure_Pavel]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

All election results are public information. There's no hidden fraud numbers. Where are you getting this from? 

 

The fact that 52% of the public believe that mail in vote fraud is an issue, including 34% of democrats. It undermines the process and weakens the results. The population has to believe the legitimacy of the election for democracy to truly work. 

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

The fact that 52% of the public believe that mail in vote fraud is an issue, including 34% of democrats. It undermines the process and weakens the results. The population has to believe the legitimacy of the election for democracy to truly work. 

 

Then there should be steps to prevent the fraud rather than removing the service altogether.

Edited Wednesday at 11:51 PM by The Lock

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

The fact that 52% of the public believe that mail in vote fraud is an issue, including 34% of democrats. It undermines the process and weakens the results. The population has to believe the legitimacy of the election for democracy to truly work. 

Yes, those numbers are an issue.   How do we get people to stop lying to each other about elections?  That would bring those numbers down considerably.

[Bure_Pavel]

Just now, The Lock said:

 

Then there should be steps to prevent the fraud rather than removing it altogether.

I totally agree, and voting is a very important right for all eligible. The elections and security measures will have to evolve though as technology continues to advance. I think their will come a time where mail in will need to replaced with a more secure alternative. Even if it is more secure than people think, when enough people believe it isn't fully secure it will continue to create massive divide and bitterness every election. Only 5% of Republicans/ Rep Lean think there is no issue with mail in voter fraud currently, and they make up slightly less than 50% of the countries population.      

[Bure_Pavel]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Yes, those numbers are an issue.   How do we get people to stop lying to each other about elections?  That would bring those numbers down considerably.

I think the only way that makes sense is additional security/verification measures, but would have to be coupled with a large increase access to in person voting to ensure its not removing peoples voices. I dont think people would care if there were some excepts made for people like military serving over seas and others, its just when 43% use a voting method that 52% of people believe there is some issues with it leaves room for dangerous rhetoric. I do expect that in person voting will be more prominent this time around due to covid.  

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

The fact that 52% of the public believe that mail in vote fraud is an issue, including 34% of democrats. It undermines the process and weakens the results. The population has to believe the legitimacy of the election for democracy to truly work. 

 

Belief isn't fact.

 

Look at actual evidence for your decisions. 

[Satchmo]

Just now, Bure_Pavel said:

I think the only way that makes sense is additional security/verification measures, but would have to be coupled with a large increase access to in person voting to ensure its not removing peoples voices. I dont think people would care if there were some excepts made for people like military serving over seas and others, its just when 43% use a voting method that 52% of people believe there is some issues with it leaves room for dangerous rhetoric. I do expect that in person voting will be more prominent this time around due to covid.  

We will not be agreeing on this one,  I think if it ain't broke don't fix it (and pay untold millions to do so) .

 

[Bure_Pavel]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Belief isn't fact.

 

Look at actual evidence for your decisions. 

Belief is just as important, the system only works if people believe in it. Similar to currency, money is only as valuable as people believe it to be. When they lose faith in it is can come crashing down as we have seen in the past. Disinformation is really not helping the cause.     

[Gurn]

44 minutes ago, Spur1 said:

That’s Trump flossing his ears. 

 

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Belief is just as important, the system only works if people believe in it. Similar to currency, money is only as valuable as people believe it to be. When they lose faith in it is can come crashing down as we have seen in the past. Disinformation is really not helping the cause.     

We keep talking about realities and you keep talking about faith.  No wonder we can't agree.

 

Money, btw, is only as valuable as it is compared to other currencies (no matter what you believe it to be).   Stock Markets have crashed for many reasons but never for belief.

 

Another btw - this is the US politics section right?  So there are 50 states and 50 distinct sets of election laws. You'd have to catch them all to get the changes you propose made.

[Bob Long]

35 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Belief is just as important, the system only works if people believe in it. Similar to currency, money is only as valuable as people believe it to be. When they lose faith in it is can come crashing down as we have seen in the past. Disinformation is really not helping the cause.     

 

No beliefs are not as important as facts. You saying that is part of the problem we see in politics today.

 

Look at the facts. Election fraud is not a serious problem. That should be the end of the discussion.

 

[4petesake]

40 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Belief is just as important, the system only works if people believe in it. Similar to currency, money is only as valuable as people believe it to be. When they lose faith in it is can come crashing down as we have seen in the past. Disinformation is really not helping the cause.     

 

Don’t Republicans have the same lack of belief (trust) in everything to do with the election, not just mail-in voting? When Trump/ Fox/Breitbart/ Parler/Telegram/Twitter et al sow election conspiracies like Dominion and voter fraud distrust in the system is both the natural result and the desired effect. No amount of studies, safeguards or losses in court challenges has been able to sway those beliefs, which is exactly what Trump wants. Pretending that he wants a fair election is nothing more than misdirection.

 

The only constant across party lines is the concern that voters will be disenfranchised.

 

 

 

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

No beliefs are not as important as facts. You saying that is part of the problem we see in politics today.

 

Look at the facts. Election fraud is not a serious problem. That should be the end of the discussion.

 

I love how the solution is to put up more "safeguards" for a non existent issue, rather than hold accountable the people and organizations responsible for spreading the lies. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said:

I think was already a concern for some people due to advancements in technology and increased access to personal information. The difference was in 1996 7.8% of people voted by mail compared to 43.0% in 2020, now all of a sudden it is a bit of a big deal.   

Another COVID pandemic during 1996 US election?

Edited yesterday at 01:12 AM by NewbieCanuckFan

[RupertKBD]

1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said:

The fact that 52% of the public believe that mail in vote fraud is an issue, including 34% of democrats. It undermines the process and weakens the results. The population has to believe the legitimacy of the election for democracy to truly work. 

 

They believe it because some of the biggest liars on the planet have convinced them it's an issue.

 

Democracy will work just fine without a bunch of gullible fools believing in it. There is plenty of room in the US penitentiary system, if they feel they have to repeat the stupidity of Jan 6th, 2021....

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Belief is just as important, the system only works if people believe in it. Similar to currency, money is only as valuable as people believe it to be. When they lose faith in it is can come crashing down as we have seen in the past. Disinformation is really not helping the cause.     

 

I'm going to disagree with what you are saying here simply for the fact that belief can come through propaganda. Propaganda doesn't care if a system is working or not. Propaganda only cares in making people believe or disbelieve in the system.

 

So, in your argument, it's kind of saying that propaganda is king because it's then telling people what to believe. Is that really a society you want?

 

Personally, I think that, just because people don't believe in a system, it doesn't mean that system's not working, especially if those beliefs are derived from false claims.

 

And it sucks that we have to have this argument because propaganda is out there and people are susceptible to it.

Edited yesterday at 01:31 AM by The Lock

[Bure_Pavel]

15 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

I'm going to disagree with what you are saying here simply for the fact that belief can come through propaganda. Propaganda doesn't care if a system is working or not. Propaganda only cares in making people believe or disbelieve in the system.

 

So, in your argument, it's kind of saying that propaganda is king because it's then telling people what to believe. Is that really a society you want?

Its not the society I want, but ever since WW2 propaganda has been a major part of shaping society. Was used before that, but I think thats when it really took off and people started to understand the influence it could have. With social media its very easy to distribute targeted information. The truth has usually been in the middle but right and left are so far gone its just a chasm in the middle.      

Edited yesterday at 01:43 AM by Bure_Pavel

[King Heffy]

44 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

No beliefs are not as important as facts. You saying that is part of the problem we see in politics today.

 

Look at the facts. Election fraud is not a serious problem. That should be the end of the discussion.

 

The solution is to do what's necessary to  educate these idiots and hold people like Trump criminally accountable for false accusations.

[Bob Long]

36 minutes ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

I love how the solution is to put up more "safeguards" for a non existent issue, rather than hold accountable the people and organizations responsible for spreading the lies. 

 

If I were @Bure_Pavel I'd ask myself who benefits when people doubt our democratic systems?

 

[Bure_Pavel]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

If I were @Bure_Pavel I'd ask myself who benefits when people doubt our democratic systems?

 

Communists are probably loving it. China, Russia, and North Korea will continue to try and test democracy any chance they get. The US election system showed some cracks immediately after the 2020 election. If improvements can be made to strengthen/safeguarding the election process without shifting favour in either parties favor I would be all for it, including for Canada.

[Satchmo]

Just now, Bure_Pavel said:

Communists are probably loving it. China, Russia, and North Korea will continue to try and test democracy any chance they get. The US election system showed some cracks immediately after the 2020 election. If improvements can be made to strengthen/safeguarding the election process without shifting favour in either parties favor I would be all for it, including for Canada.

I can't help myself even though I'd rather be out of this conversation: What cracks did it show?  Not which cracks do some people think it showed but what cracks did it actually show?

[NewbieCanuckFan]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

If I were @Bure_Pavel I'd ask myself who benefits when people doubt our democratic systems?

 

 

7 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Communists are probably loving it. China, Russia, and North Korea will continue to try and test democracy any chance they get. The US election system showed some cracks immediately after the 2020 election. If improvements can be made to strengthen/safeguarding the election process without shifting favour in either parties favor I would be all for it, including for Canada.

 

 

And this is Nixon we're talking about.  When you have a higher moral compass (Nixon) than Herr Vonn Sh*tForPants, that is telling.

 

Granted Nixon was a legitimate war vet in WW2 (heck, he volunteered when he could've easily gotten a religious exemption).  Then there's the multiple convicted felon & adjudicated rapist's "Vietnam war career".

Edited yesterday at 02:02 AM by NewbieCanuckFan