US Politics Thread

[Gnarcore]

23 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 Yep. Played rhythm guitar on that one for many years. Used to cramp up between the thumb and the index finger because of playing bar chords for that long....

I cheated and did the 3 finger version of B minor haha  

[Sabrefan1]

3 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

"Nobody" meaning the president. See the problem with that line of thinking?

 

I'd have to double check but I think local law enforcement and politicians wanted to handle it.  I'd also have to double check but I don't think even Pelosi wanted them called in initially either.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Sabrefan1

[RupertKBD]

Just now, Gnarcore said:

I cheated and did the 3 finger version of B minor haha  

 

Almost pulled a muscle in my hand once because some genius (me) put The Wall and Sultans of Swing back to back in the set list....

 

Never again...

[RupertKBD]

Just now, Sabrefan1 said:

I'd have to double check but I think local law enforcement and politicians wanted to handle it.  I'd have to double check but I don't think even Pelosi wanted them called in initially either.

 

Faux News and many MAGA Republicans were blaming Nancy for not calling them in, so you know for sure it's a lie.

 

It was all Bone Spurs. he was enjoying the show and didn't want it stopped.

[Sabrefan1]

Just now, RupertKBD said:

Faux News and many MAGA Republicans were blaming Nancy for not calling them in, so you know for sure it's a lie.

 

It was all Bone Spurs. he was enjoying the show and didn't want it stopped.

 

Here.  Read this...

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/07/this-is-why-the-national-guard-didnt-respond-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/

[4petesake]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

I'd have to double check but I think local law enforcement and politicians wanted to handle it.  I'd also have to double check but I don't think even Pelosi wanted them called in initially either.

 

 

But John Falcicchio, the D.C. deputy mayor who sat in on the day’s panicked law enforcement conversations from the city police command center, says that Sund’s depiction of the unheeded calls for federal backup rings true.

“[D.C. Police] Chief [Robert] Contee kind of says, Hey, listen, guys. Let’s just get right down to it. Chief Sund, are you inviting the National Guard to come support the U.S. Capitol Police on the grounds of the Capitol? And there’s like a silent moment. Then he says yes. And literally, the Pentagon is the next voice heard. And they’re literally like, we’re not going to be able to fulfill that request.” The room deflated. “The Pentagon, in fairness, was saying: Listen, that visual of the National Guard charging up to the Capitol is one we don’t know that it’s the best one to portray.”

[nuckin_futz]

3 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

The military was actually nearby.  Nobody wanted them called in. 

 

If Trump had the military on his side, it would be game over.  However, the US military is completely volunteer and totally funded by Congress.  Congress would stop paying the military salaries and every person would start losing their vehicles, homes, spouses, etc.  Nobody likes Trump enough for that.

 

People talk big until the personal sacrifices roll in and then they fold like a cheap suit.  Honestly, I'm not 100% sure that Trump would even finish a second term if he became too disruptive.  As a whole, the majority of the leaders in his own party can't stand him and the Democrats loathe him.  I think there's a very real chance that he'd be removed from office before his second term was up.  The majority of the people in power in Washington just do not like him.

 

OK let's assume Congress is controlled by Republicans and the Secretary of the Treasury Is Patrick Byrne (that's the crazy former Overstock CEO for those of you who can't keep all the nut cases straight), or a coked up Larry Kudlow? Boom salaries keep on rolling.

 

Yes none of them respect him and most actually hate him and yet they are willing to kiss his arse for personal gain. It doesn't help that they are afraid of their own voters.

 

If he got way out of hand I could see him getting Kennedy'd.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

People think, "Oh, it won't happen with us." 

People think, "Our system wouldn't let such a thing happen."

People think, "The checks and balances will prevent a breakdown of the system."

 

Until it does.

 

Nobody thought that a bunch of citizens could cause the shutdown of a key commercial crossing between the US and Canada.  And yet it happened.

 

Nobody thought that the people would storm Congress.  And yet it happened.

 

Nobody thinks the military would allow for a democratically elected government to be subverted by their predecessor.  Until it happens.  And it has happened in other countries around the world.

 

"It won't happen" is the most naive way at looking at things.  It will.  It's only a matter of opportunity, circumstance, and motivation.

 

[Sabrefan1]

7 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

But John Falcicchio, the D.C. deputy mayor who sat in on the day’s panicked law enforcement conversations from the city police command center, says that Sund’s depiction of the unheeded calls for federal backup rings true.

“[D.C. Police] Chief [Robert] Contee kind of says, Hey, listen, guys. Let’s just get right down to it. Chief Sund, are you inviting the National Guard to come support the U.S. Capitol Police on the grounds of the Capitol? And there’s like a silent moment. Then he says yes. And literally, the Pentagon is the next voice heard. And they’re literally like, we’re not going to be able to fulfill that request.” The room deflated. “The Pentagon, in fairness, was saying: Listen, that visual of the National Guard charging up to the Capitol is one we don’t know that it’s the best one to portray.”

 

Thanks for the refresher.  I wasn't sure, that's why I said I had to double check.

 

Read the article link I posted.  The biggest problem was that there was too many people that request for troops had to go through.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Sabrefan1

[4petesake]

1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

People think, "Oh, it won't happen with us." 

People think, "Our system wouldn't let such a thing happen."

People think, "The checks and balances will prevent a breakdown of the system."

 

Until it does.

 

Nobody thought that a bunch of citizens could cause the shutdown of a key commercial crossing between the US and Canada.  And yet it happened.

 

Nobody thought that the people would storm Congress.  And yet it happened.

 

Nobody thinks the military would allow for a democratically elected government to be subverted by their predecessor.  Until it happens.  And it has happened in other countries around the world.

 

"It won't happen" is the most naive way at looking at things.  It will.  It's only a matter of opportunity, circumstance, and motivation.

 

Too soon forgotten is the visual of General Mark Milley marching across Lafayette Square after it was cleared of protesters to pose with Trump and his bible. Sure he apologized later…when it became necessary, but don’t think for a moment that it couldn’t or wouldn’t happen again if circumstances permit.

[RupertKBD]

6 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

Here.  Read this...

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/07/this-is-why-the-national-guard-didnt-respond-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/

 

i think everyone is aware that the Capitol Police weren't adequately prepared, but where in that article does it say that Pelosi was the one who turned down the NG support?

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

Too soon forgotten is the visual of General Mark Milley marching across Lafayette Square after it was cleared of protesters to pose with Trump and his bible. Sure he apologized later…when it became necessary, but don’t think for a moment that it couldn’t or wouldn’t happen again if circumstances permit.

 

And it has to be said that the system is only as strong as the people who operate it - or conversely, the system is as weak as the weakest link in the system, which is operated by a person, who may have their own interests or motivations for disabling the system for just a small but critical moment to allow for an unexpected (erroneous) outcome to happen.

 

The governance system is a human construct.  Nobody is without fault or devoid of personal interest.

[Sabrefan1]

5 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

People think, "Oh, it won't happen with us." 

People think, "Our system wouldn't let such a thing happen."

People think, "The checks and balances will prevent a breakdown of the system."

 

Until it does.

 

Quote

Nobody thought that a bunch of citizens could cause the shutdown of a key commercial crossing between the US and Canada.  And yet it happened.

 

Not on this side.  Native Americans have shut down entire highways in the past.  It's quite easy to shut down roads.

 

Quote

Nobody thought that the people would storm Congress.  And yet it happened.

 

Who thought that?  Washington has been inundated before with people.  They usually don't attack Capitol Hill though.  Even the White House was stormed and broken into by one knife wielding moron.

 

Quote

Nobody thinks the military would allow for a democratically elected government to be subverted by their predecessor.  Until it happens.  And it has happened in other countries around the world.

 

Not gonna happen with a volunteer army that's funded by a separate body and separate branch of government.

 

 

Quote

"It won't happen" is the most naive way at looking at things.  It will.  It's only a matter of opportunity, circumstance, and motivation.

 

I still have faith in the way that the founding fathers set the country up.

[Sabrefan1]

5 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Too soon forgotten is the visual of General Mark Milley marching across Lafayette Square after it was cleared of protesters to pose with Trump and his bible. Sure he apologized later…when it became necessary, but don’t think for a moment that it couldn’t or wouldn’t happen again if circumstances permit.

 

The funny thing is that Trump hates Milley now.  Milley was the one that undermined some of Trump's ranting about China.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

I still have faith in the way that the founding fathers set the country up.

 

Good for you.  I don't share your faith, and I believe it's really only a matter of time.  I just hope I won't be around to see it when it happens.

[Sabrefan1]

6 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

i think everyone is aware that the Capitol Police weren't adequately prepared, but where in that article does it say that Pelosi was the one who turned down the NG support?

 

That wasn't my intent.  I don't care about Pelosi.  Never really have one way or the other.

 

The issue is that there is a crapload of bureaucracy with DC.  That was the main impediment with moving in the troops from the street.

 

It's one of the many reasons why there's a movement to make the District of Columbia the 51st state.

[Sabrefan1]

3 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Good for you.  I don't share your faith, and I believe it's really only a matter of time.  I just hope I won't be around to see it when it happens.

 

I'm not saying that the pillars will never be knocked over through action of the Congress coupled with voter inaction, I'm just saying that that day is not here.  I'm pretty sure I'll be gone if that day ever comes.

[nuckin_futz]

Just now, Sabrefan1 said:

 

It's one of the many reasons why there's a movement to make the District of Columbia the 51st state.

 

Probably never going to happen. That's an automatic 2 Democrat Senators and probably 7 House Reps.

 

It's doesn't matter that it's in the best interest of the country and a completely fair thing to do.

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

Probably never going to happen. That's an automatic 2 Democrat Senators and probably 7 House Reps.

 

It's doesn't matter that it's in the best interest of the country and a completely fair thing to do.

 

Unfortunately, truer words have never been spoken.

[4petesake]

4 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

The funny thing is that Trump hates Milley now.  Milley was the one that undermined some of Trump's ranting about China.

 

Yeah he butted heads with military leaders a lot. Remember the story of him complaining to John Kelly “You fucking generals, why can’t you be more like the German generals?” Kelly reminded him that they tried to assassinate Hitler 3 times and almost pulled it off. “No, no, no, they were totally loyal to him” was Trump’s response. I see why you don’t think this could happen and you may be right but all it takes is a few people in the right position to change the odds imo.

 

 

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

Yeah he butted heads with military leaders a lot. Remember the story of him complaining to John Kelly “You fucking generals, why can’t you be more like the German generals?” Kelly reminded him that they tried to assassinate Hitler 3 times and almost pulled it off. “No, no, no, they were totally loyal to him” was Trump’s response. I see why you don’t think this could happen and you may be right but all it takes is a few people in the right position to change the odds imo.

 

OMG, I never heard that story!  That's hilarious! 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

3 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I see why you don’t think this could happen and you may be right but all it takes is a few people in the right position to change the odds imo.

 

The system as it's designed presupposes that key positions within it will be handled by the "adults in the room".  As you mentioned, all it takes is a few "immature" players in a few of those key positions to cause a breakdown of the system as it was designed to operate.  Whether or not that breakdown is fatal is dependent on how the other players handle the breakdown, but it really won't take much before things get really bad.

 

Most controls are thought of as strong until there's a determined and collective move to breach it by like-minded individuals seeking to defeat it.  Again, it just boils down to opportunity, motivation, and circumstance.

[4petesake]

10 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

OMG, I never heard that story!  That's hilarious! 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/15/inside-the-war-between-trump-and-his-generals

 

That same story recounts when Trump wanted to throw the biggest, grandest military parade ever on the 4th of July -

 

That was never clearer than when Trump told his new chief of staff, John Kelly—like Mattis, a retired Marine Corps general—about his vision for Independence Day. “Look, I don’t want any wounded guys in the parade,” Trump said. “This doesn’t look good for me.” He explained with distaste that at the Bastille Day parade there had been several formations of injured veterans, including wheelchair-bound soldiers who had lost limbs in battle.

Kelly could not believe what he was hearing. “Those are the heroes,” he told Trump. “In our society, there’s only one group of people who are more heroic than they are—and they are buried over in Arlington.” Kelly did not mention that his own son Robert, a lieutenant killed in action in Afghanistan, was among the dead interred there.

“I don’t want them,” Trump repeated. “It doesn’t look good for me.”

 

 

[RupertKBD]

20 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

Probably never going to happen. That's an automatic 2 Democrat Senators and probably 7 House Reps.

 

It's doesn't matter that it's in the best interest of the country and a completely fair thing to do.

 

Same reason Puerto Rico will never get representation either....

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

The system as it's designed presupposes that key positions within it will be handled by the "adults in the room".  As you mentioned, all it takes is a few "immature" players in a few of those key positions to cause a breakdown of the system as it was designed to operate.  Whether or not that breakdown is fatal is dependent on how the other players handle the breakdown, but it really won't take much before things get really bad.

 

Most controls are thought of as strong until there's a determined and collective move to breach it by like-minded individuals seeking to defeat it.  Again, it just boils down to opportunity, motivation, and circumstance.

 

Too many what-ifs for now.  If all 3 branches some day decide to chip away at the foundation of the republic, those what-ifs have a real chance to come true.  Fortunately, we're not at that point and likely won't be for a long time.