US Politics Thread

[The Lock]

Just now, Satchmo said:

For the sake of my massive ego I have to point out that I know what the word obfuscate means.  In your post it was implied that those who were against Trump were guilty of it, as well as living in denial.  As for denying that Trump has any chance of winning - too soon to tell.   Assuming so now would be dangerous (for libs like me).

 

And yes, Trump obfuscates, exaggerates, and out and out lies.

 

For the record, I found his post kind of weird too, especially since it referred back to 2016 and ignored that people were not as complacent in 2020. Evidently, people have learned their lesson and the fact that this even gets brought up means it's still in the back of peoples' minds that anything could happen and they shouldn't be complacent.

[kilgore]

2 hours ago, Ricky Ravioli said:

Noooo...

 

My point is that the American public doesn't care about that dinner and if Trump wins that will be obvious proof. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Jesus man

 

What is exhausting arguing with....individuals... like you is you have no qualms about pivoting the argument if its not going your way.  And then pretend you were never arguing, or that its not important and then accuse others who react to your false dumb takes as beating a dead horse...after you've been pinned down. Do you honestly believe Trump didn't know who he had dinner with.....lol..(or any of his advisers) .You spend pages in here trying to defend Trump meeting with a well known and lead figure in the White Nationalist movement and being oblivious to who he was.  Because.....you didn't know him.

 

You seem to not be bothered how ignorant you come off.  Blind to any notion that meeting with, forget Fuentes for a second, Kanye as well, after he had just doubled down on antisemitic tweets.  And what signal that makes from a lead figure in the Republican party.  Did Trump also not know Kanye and why he was in the news lately?  You come off as a fool. As do most on the far right. Don't seem to even care how dumb you look. Just pivot to some other cause, like Mr Potato Head or Barbie when to much reason and facts are put in front of you

 

Your only argument in support of Trump is that he is so stupid, and his advisors around him are even stupider, that none of them knew who Fuentes was, or checked him out first.  In that case why do you defend such a stupid stupid person? Do you think such a stupid person should lead the free world? Leader of a nation that is our biggest trading partner and effects Canadians greatly?

 

Of course, he's not that stupid.  His team set it up to show his racist base that he sympathized with them, to secure their votes.  What other reason? Tell me.

 

 

Let me ask you.  No matter how many actions and statements Trump has made that we show you examples of, (I made a lengthy list a few pages back) you insist Trump is not racist.  I'll humour you.  I will agree that I have never heard Trump say "Blacks are inferior to whites"  or "Jews will not replace us".   But why would any politician, racist or not, purposely sever relations with the black community if he needs as many votes as possible?  There are plenty of dumb Uncle Toms out there who vote too.  But Trump and his team are counting on the sad fact that there are many more votes from susceptible white voters with suppressed racism just waiting for a leader to make it all normal for them, than any moderate black Republicans who will then turn from him. It was a calculated and planned dinner.

 

So what if he is not a racist in the most dire interpretation.  ie. He doesn't own slaves, nor does he make direct racist comments, only insinuations. "good people on both sides".  But what kind of person, would engage in race baiting, in racial slurs, in meeting with known antisemitics, and not disavow groups like the KKK when directly asked?  And what makes it more egregious is that he is a national leader, so his influence in every action he takes, is amplified and also normalized to a great degree.  That is the danger. Its the Trumpublican Party's only strategy, they have no actual platform.  Other than to see how much they can steal while in office. Trump took over 7 million from foreign governments.  Its just an insidious plot to divide and make angry. And then say..."oh my...look at all this chaos!  We need a strong man leader to sort it all out!"

Edited January 25 by kilgore

[Sabrefan1]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Them trying to overthrow the democratically elected government in order to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship is enough that they have lost the right to be treated the same as actual people.  Once they prove that they understand this, they can be readmitted into society.

 

Like I said, Autocrat.

[King Heffy]

Just now, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Like I said, Autocrat.

How do you propose successful denazification of the country then?  Keep in mind that every Trump voter is a supporter of domestic terrorism, which is punishable by prison time in addition to losing the right to vote.  What I'm proposing is the kid gloves for these parasites.

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

How do you propose successful denazification of the country then?  Keep in mind that every Trump voter is a supporter of domestic terrorism, which is punishable by prison time in addition to losing the right to vote.  What I'm proposing is the kid gloves for these parasites.

 

So let's go with you idea for a moment and ignore constitution. How do you define a "parasite"? What would be an exact definition that would allow us to label a "parasite" without question?

[Sabrefan1]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

For the sake of my massive ego I have to point out that I know what the word obfuscate means. 

 

  Not everyone reading my response will.  It saves them a Google search.

 

Quote

In your post it was implied that those who were against Trump were guilty of it, as well as living in denial.  As for denying that Trump has any chance of winning - too soon to tell.   Assuming so now would be dangerous (for libs like me).

 

In my opinion, the last ditch effort to stop Trump is now with the SCOTUS.  Biden is trending down, and Trump is slowly creeping up.  If that continues to November, Trump will likely win re-election.  Again, just an educated assumption on my part.  Even knowing how disliked Hillary was, I believed the outlier polls that thought Trump was going to get smoked in 2016, so take my opinion when it comes to Trump winning or losing an election with a grain of salt.  I was wrong 8 years ago.

 

Quote

And yes, Trump obfuscates, exaggerates, and out and out lies.

 

 

No doubt.  A blind man could see that and know it to be the truth.

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, kilgore said:

What is exhausting arguing with wingnuts like you is you have no qualms about pivoting the argument if its not going your way. 

You make points I agree with.   I too am flustered by ever changing goal posts in conversations.

 

But is 'wingnuts like you' really helpful in proving a point?

[Sabrefan1]

6 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

How do you propose successful denazification of the country then?  Keep in mind that every Trump voter is a supporter of domestic terrorism, which is punishable by prison time in addition to losing the right to vote.  What I'm proposing is the kid gloves for these parasites.

 

I know it's not your intent and you are serious as a heart attack but I have to laugh when you go on your Nazi rants.

[nuckin_futz]

4 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Haley and Trump are proof the Republicans are going to have a hard time winning a general election. Haley represents the centrists in the party who don't want Trump. Trump represents the MAGA crowd. The MAGA crowd is not going to vote for Haley. The centrist crowd is not going to vote for Trump. Yet, the Republicans need both crowds to win the general election.

 

That being said, no one should be using any of this as an excuse to become lazy and think the Republicans are not a threat at all. A lot can happen between now and the election after all. So while we shouldn't obfuscate and "live in denial", it's not really denial given you just have to look at the Republican party itself to see that they have issues and it's up to the democrats to take advantage of those issues.

 

Either way, right now the democrats are in a much better state than the republicans, and that's even with having an unpopular Biden.

 

If Biden were a stock I'd be buying him right here. He's very underestimated right now. Economic numbers all moving in the right direction. Markets at all time highs, inflation under control, wages rising outpacing inflation, today's GDP reading was a blowout (expectation 2%, actual 3.3%), long anticipated recession never materialized, unemployment below 4% for the longest stretch in US history), interest rates set to drop steadily as per the Federal reserve, big UAW endorsement (not only an endorsement but the union head attacking Trump). Keep all of these factors going and people will be feeling much better about the economy come November.

 

Republicans will beat voters over the head with concerns about the border. Democrats will beat voters over the head with abortion. The border is hardly a new issue. However the overturning of Roe v Wade is and will (and has been) mobilizing voters in big numbers. The abortion issue is poison to Republicans and they know it. All of them except for Trump who boasts about it and will tie that albatross around the neck of every Republican.

 

Trump lost Congressional elections in 2018 (lost both House and Senate), a General Election in 2020, and while they managed to flip the House in 2022 they only flipped 8 or 9 seats not the 40-50+ that was expected, while Dems actually picked up a Senate seat. It was one of the most successful mid terms elections for a sitting President in decades. Fact of the matter is Republicans have trouble winning elections and the common denominator is Trump. Does anyone think Trump can moderate his rhetoric and behavior up to November?

 

Can Trump win a General Election? Yes, but his baggage is immense. I can't imagine there's many out there who did not vote for him in 2016 and 2020 who would flip and vote for him now. So where does he gain new votes from? Because he didn't have enough last time. I'm sure a certain number of pro Biden votes in 2020 were purely anti Trump votes. Will all of those continue to vote for Biden, maybe not but if they don't they're just staying home.

 

And of course the Trump Factor (pardon the pun) is Jack Smith. This is just speculation on my part but I strongly suspect Trump either had intentions to sell some of those nuclear documents (most likely to the Saudis) or did sell them. If he did you can bet Jack Smith knows about it and has evidence of it. Once again just speculation on my part.

[The Lock]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

You make points I agree with.   I too am flustered by ever changing goal posts in conversations.

 

But is 'wingnuts like you' really helpful in proving a point?

 

It's not like the person he's attacking is going to listen anyway. lol

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

If Biden were a stock I'd be buying him right here. He's very underestimated right now. Economic numbers all moving in the right direction. Markets at all time highs, inflation under control, wages rising outpacing inflation, today's GDP reading was a blowout (expectation 2%, actual 3.3%), long anticipated recession never materialized, unemployment below 4% for the longest stretch in US history), interest rates set to drop steadily as per the Federal reserve, big UAW endorsement (not only an endorsement but the union head attacking Trump). Keep all of these factors going and people will be feeling much better about the economy come November.

 

Republicans will beat voters over the head with concerns about the border. Democrats will beat voters over the head with abortion. The border is hardly a new issue. However the overturning of Roe v Wade is and will (and has been) mobilizing voters in big numbers. The abortion issue is poison to Republicans and they know it. All of them except for Trump who boasts about it and will tie that albatross around the neck of every Republican.

 

Trump lost Congressional elections in 2018 (lost both House and Senate), a General Election in 2020, and while they managed to flip the House in 2022 they only flipped 8 or 9 seats not the 40-50+ that was expected, while Dems actually picked up a Senate seat. It was one of the most successful mid terms elections for a sitting President in decades. Fact of the matter is Republicans have trouble winning elections and the common denominator is Trump. Does anyone think Trump can moderate his rhetoric and behavior up to November?

 

Can Trump win a General Election? Yes, but his baggage is immense. I can't imagine there's many out there who did not vote for him in 2016 and 2020 who would flip and vote for him now. So where does he gain new votes from? Because he didn't have enough last time. I'm sure a certain number of pro Biden votes in 2020 were purely anti Trump votes. Will all of those continue to vote for Biden, maybe not but if they don't they're just staying home.

 

And of course the Trump Factor (pardon the pun) is Jack Smith. This is just speculation on my part but I strongly suspect Trump either had intentions to sell some of those nuclear documents (most likely to the Saudis) or did sell them. If he did you can bet Jack Smith knows about it and has evidence of it. Once again just speculation on my part.

 

In a way, I've already bought stock after a Trump supporter made a $100 bet with me last year, while I was drunk, that Trump would win the election. That was a weird night but the odds are obviously in my favour. lol

[kilgore]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

You make points I agree with.   I too am flustered by ever changing goal posts in conversations.

 

But is 'wingnuts like you' really helpful in proving a point?

 

No it doesn't.  You are right. I'm going to go edit it out.  Its just difficult to deal with such arrogantly ignorant people , sometimes on the far left, but mostly on the far right these days.  And "wingnuts" is what I think is being kind. I could call them a lot of other things. Its just my human emotion spilling over. But yeah, I shouldn't do that.  Even for the fact that these...individuals....will then focus on that one rude outburst in order to dismiss all the rest of the facts in a post.

[Satchmo]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

It's not like the person he's attacking is going to listen anyway. lol

Everybody listens to some degree.   Everybody makes less sense when they are riled up and feel offended.

[The Lock]

Just now, Satchmo said:

Everybody listens to some degree.   Everybody makes less sense when they are riled up and feel offended.

 

While this is true, I should probably correct myself as there's a difference between listening and seeing reason.

[Ricky Ravioli]

21 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

What is exhausting arguing with wingnuts like you is you have no qualms about pivoting the argument if its not going your way.  And then pretend you were never arguing, or that its not important and then accuse others who react to your false dumb takes as beating a dead horse...after you've been pinned down. Do you honestly believe Trump didn't know who he had dinner with.....lol..(or any of his advisers) .You spend pages in here trying to defend Trump meeting with a well known and lead figure in the White Nationalist movement and being oblivious to who he was.  Because.....you didn't know him.

 

You seem to not be bothered how ignorant you come off.  Blind to any notion that meeting with, forget Fuentes for a second, Kanye as well, after he had just doubled down on antisemitic tweets.  And what signal that makes from a lead figure in the Republican party.  Did Trump also not know Kanye and why he was in the news lately?  You come off as a fool. As do most on the far right. Don't seem to even care how dumb you look. Just pivot to some other cause, like Mr Potato Head or Barbie when to much reason and facts are put in front of you

 

Your only argument in support of Trump is that he is so stupid, and his advisors around him are even stupider, that none of them knew who Fuentes was, or checked him out first.  In that case why do you defend such a stupid stupid person? Do you think such a stupid person should lead the free world? Leader of a nation that is our biggest trading partner and effects Canadians greatly?

 

Of course, he's not that stupid.  His team set it up to show his racist base that he sympathized with them, to secure their votes.  What other reason? Tell me.

 

 

Let me ask you.  No matter how many actions and statements Trump has made that we show you examples of, (I made a lengthy list a few pages back) you insist Trump is not racist.  I'll humour you.  I will agree that I have never heard Trump say "Blacks are inferior to whites"  or "Jews will not replace us".   But why would any politician, racist or not, purposely sever relations with the black community if he needs as many votes as possible?  There are plenty of dumb Uncle Toms out there who vote too.  But Trump and his team are counting on the sad fact that there are many more votes from susceptible white voters with suppressed racism just waiting for a leader to make it all normal for them, than any moderate black Republicans who will then turn from him. It was a calculated and planned dinner.

 

So what if he is not a racist in the most dire interpretation.  ie. He doesn't own slaves, nor does he make direct racist comments, only insinuations. "good people on both sides".  But what kind of person, would engage in race baiting, in racial slurs, in meeting with known antisemitics, and not disavow groups like the KKK when directly asked?  And what makes it more egregious is that he is a national leader, so his influence in every action he takes, is amplified and also normalized to a great degree.  That is the danger. Its the Trumpublican Party's only strategy, they have no actual platform.  Other than to see how much they can steal while in office. Trump took over 7 million from foreign governments.  Its just an insidious plot to divide and make angry. And then say..."oh my...look at all this chaos!  We need a strong man leader to sort it all out!"

So where did my argument pivot? My only 2 have been I don't believe Trump is racist and I don't believe he knew he Nick Fuentes was. Where did I pivot on either of those?

 

Also I already said meeting with Kanye was in bad taste. So again, more assumptions 

Edited January 25 by Ricky Ravioli

[Sabrefan1]

15 minutes ago, The Lock said:

For the record, I found his post kind of weird too, especially since it referred back to 2016 and ignored that people were not as complacent in 2020.

 

In 2020, people voted against Trump more than they voted for Biden.  People forget that the DNC had to basically beg Biden to run in 2020 because he had lost in the primaries quite handily every other time he ran for president.  The DNC had to promise him their full backing before he even said yes.

 

In 2024, I'm watching news clips of people who voted in the last race say that they are going to sit this election out or flat out say that they will now vote for Trump because they do not like the Biden Administration's handling of the country.

 

Quote

Evidently, people have learned their lesson and the fact that this even gets brought up means it's still in the back of peoples' minds that anything could happen and they shouldn't be complacent.

 

People are funny when it comes to learning their lesson.  Mix that with 4 years of time and the perception that his successor did a worse job than him, and you get people who want now what they didn't want then.

 

It's astonishing to see Trump's numbers even with minority voters.  Especially Latinos.  He's at a Republican all time high with them according to a news segment I watched this morning.

[Sabrefan1]

10 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

In a way, I've already bought stock after a Trump supporter made a $100 bet with me last year, while I was drunk, that Trump would win the election. That was a weird night but the odds are obviously in my favour. lol

 

Is he likely to pay up if he loses?

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Is he likely to pay up if he loses?

 

Actually, knowing him, yes. He's at least not a bad person. Just... was surprised he was a Trump supporter.

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

Actually, knowing him, yes. He's at least not a bad person. Just... was surprised he was a Trump supporter.

 

If someone ever welches on a bet with me, I forgive them with no hard feelings but I never make a bet with them again after.  I also make sure to remind them of the welching when/if they try.

 

......And since some people are sensitive; no offense meant to anybody of Welsh decent.

[The Lock]

7 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

In 2020, people voted against Trump more than they voted for Biden.  People forget that the DNC had to basically beg Biden to run in 2020 because he had lost in the primaries quite handily every other time he ran for president.  The DNC had to promise him their full backing before he even said yes.

 

In 2024, I'm watching news clips of people who voted in the last race say that they are going to sit this election out or flat out say that they will now vote for Trump because they do not like the Biden Administration's handling of the country.

 

 

People are funny when it comes to learning their lesson.  Mix that with 4 years of time and the perception that his successor did a worse job than him, and you get people who want now what they didn't want then.

 

It's astonishing to see Trump's numbers even with minority voters.  Especially Latinos.  He's at a Republican all time high with them according to a news segment I watched this morning.

 

But that's the thing, if it become Biden vs Trump again, the same thing's likely to happen with anti-Trumpers coming out. If anything, there's probably more anti-Trumpers than ever. January 6th happened followed by the court cases.  The chance of someone having become an anti-Trumper since 2020 logically outweighs the chance of someone becoming a Trump supporter.

 

Why wouldn't 2016 and 2020 be on the minds of everyone in all of this? While it may be true that people have short memories, literally everyone I've talked with has been like "he won in 2016", meaning it's still on everyone's mind. They haven't forgotten. There's no evidence they've forgotten. If anything, it's the opposite.

 

I will however agree that it's still astonishing to see Trump's numbers. That being said, it's not like those numbers went up from where they were before. If anything, it's more about being astonished at how many of them are still there. But, while astonishing, that still doesn't exactly bode well for Trump's chances with the election.

[RupertKBD]

49 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said:

Again, you are not the "average" American. You are clearly more plugged in to politics than the average person is. Most people don't spend their day posting on political threads. Between fox and CNN they average roughly 2 million views. People don't read the news as much anymore either. In a country of roughly 330 million people, how many do you really think that news reached?

 

Since pretty much every major news outlet carried the story, I'd say it reached a lot of them. In fact, I'd say that the ones most likely to have not heard about it are the ones who avoid MSM, because of what they would call "bias"....and what I would call "reporting facts that they don't want to hear"....

 

....you know....like the fact that the leading candidate for the Republican presidential nomination has dinner with a known anti-Semite and his white Supremacist buddies....

[Ricky Ravioli]

5 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Since pretty much every major news outlet carried the story, I'd say it reached a lot of them. In fact, I'd say that the ones most likely to have not heard about it are the ones who avoid MSM, because of what they would call "bias"....and what I would call "reporting facts that they don't want to hear"....

 

....you know....like the fact that the leading candidate for the Republican presidential nomination has dinner with a known anti-Semite and his white Supremacist buddies....

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree as we are talking in circles at this point 

[Sabrefan1]

4 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But that's the thing, if it become Biden vs Trump again, the same thing's likely to happen with anti-Trumpers coming out. If anything, there's probably more anti-Trumpers than ever. January 6th happened followed by the court cases.  The chance of someone having become an anti-Trumper since 2020 logically outweighs the chance of someone becoming a Trump supporter.

 

Why wouldn't 2016 and 2020 be on the minds of everyone in all of this? While it may be true that people have short memories, literally everyone I've talked with has been like "he won in 2016", meaning it's still on everyone's mind. They haven't forgotten. There's no evidence they've forgotten. If anything, it's the opposite.

 

I will however agree that it's still astonishing to see Trump's numbers. That being said, it's not like those numbers went up from where they were before. If anything, it's more about being astonished at how many of them are still there. But, while astonishing, that still doesn't exactly bode well for Trump's chances with the election.

 

You and I have different opinions and experiences with the Trump thing.

 

As an Independent, I'm politically the black sheep of my family.  Everyone else in it is a Republican.  I've watched them cheerlead DeSantis for most of the last year while talking about how disappointed they were in Trump whom they voted for in '16 and '20.  When it became obvious a couple months ago that DeSantis's goose was cooked, they went back to Trump like they had never left him.  I of course gave them crap about their sudden change of heart.

 

I think that will be the case with most of the country.  People in the Republican party will line up behind Trump again because they don't want to see 4 more years of Biden.

I'm less sure that the Democrats will do the same thing for Biden.

 

Like  I said before though, I called 2016 wrong.  That was the first presidential election ever I missed my guess on.  Trump is a wild card in politics.  It's tough to predict order amidst chaos.

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

You and I have different opinions and experiences with the Trump thing.

 

As an Independent, I'm politically the black sheep of my family.  Everyone else in it is a Republican.  I've watched them cheerlead DeSantis for most of the last year while talking about how disappointed they were in Trump whom they voted for in '16 and '20.  When it became obvious a couple months ago that DeSantis's goose was cooked, they went back to Trump like they had never left him.  I of course gave them crap about their sudden change of heart.

 

I think that will be the case with most of the country.  People in the Republican party will line up behind Trump again because they don't want to see 4 more years of Biden.

I'm less sure that the Democrats will do the same thing for Biden.

 

Like  I said before though, I called 2016 wrong.  That was the first presidential election ever I missed my guess on.  Trump is a wild card in politics.  It's tough to predict order amidst chaos.

 

The problem with DeSantis is he tried to win the Trump supporters. He tried to be Trump without being Trump. Given that Trump's running himself, the method DeSantis used was going to fail to begin with. So, to say I'm not surprised by DeSantis backing out would be an understatement as it was something I predicted would happen if Trump was still in the running. Had Trump been thrown in jail or something and not running, I bet you DeSantis would have actually stood a decent chance of winning the primary. I'd even bet that's what DeSantis was banking on from the beginning.

 

This, of course, also means I'm not surprised with the people who supported DeSantis running to Trump... because they targeted the same group.

[RupertKBD]

1 hour ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Obfuscate = Evasive, unclear, confusing.   Trump is saying mostly the same things that he did the first time that he ran.  People preaching against him are pretending that he isn't, and are assigning their own current meaning to what he is saying.  I've been watching it for months all over the news and most other places that don't want Trump to be president again.

 

Live in denial = There are people preaching like they did the last time that Trump won't win.  I'm personally guilty of falling for and believing this in 2016, I know better in 2024.  I think the only thing that will stop Trump from being the next president is a ruling by SCOTUS that says states can remove him from the ballet.  I think the majority of the SCOTUS justices would love to dodge having to make a decision on this but I don't think that they will be able to.

 

Sorry, I must have missed the part about dismantling government agencies, moving them out of Washington, "overhaul" and "monitor" intelligence agencies, "reform" the courts, remove bureaucrats and/or Intelligence agents and set term limits for members of Congress. (I'm actually okay with that one)

 

If fact, I recall very little for that announcement being part of his 2016 campaign. Maybe you can provide some examples?