Alflives Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 3 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: Both parties in the US are power hungry. It's unfortunate that a portion of one of them is trying to go down this road. What's goofy is it's not like DC needs more Democratic voters. Last I knew, they had the highest, or among the highest, percentage of Democratic voters. I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that in the winter there are up to 1 million Canadians down in Florida. Imagine if those folk got to vote. They could absolutely affect election results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that in the winter there are up to 1 million Canadians down in Florida. Imagine if those folk got to vote. They could absolutely affect election results. I think they're talking about people in the process of seeking citizenship, not just anybody who is physically here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Just now, Sabrefan1 said: I think they're talking about people in the process of seeking citizenship, not just anybody who is physically here. Oh. If that’s the case then why not wait until the person, who is seeking citizenship, is actually a citizen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 9 minutes ago, Alflives said: I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that in the winter there are up to 1 million Canadians down in Florida. Imagine if those folk got to vote. They could absolutely affect election results. Just now, Sabrefan1 said: I think they're talking about people in the process of seeking citizenship, not just anybody who is physically here. I would have edited this in but you've probably already clicked on the original reply to read it. The problem with that is there are those who not too long ago floated the idea of putting millions of people on the "pipeline" to citizenship. That would create a huge batch of new voters that would heavily skew to the favour of one side over the other. Yet another reason why we desperately need more than 2 parties in the US. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Just now, Alflives said: Oh. If that’s the case then why not wait until the person, who is seeking citizenship, is actually a citizen? Power hungry people want power as soon as they can get it. Like I said, hopefully the representatives in the US Congress that voted in favour of it, were just virtue signaling to pander to their constituents since they're up for election soon. They all knew that there was no way it would get passed in the House. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Don't worry, red states will just blatantly gerrymander and get away with it. See the recent SCOTUS decision regarding the South Carolina map. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-south-carolina-gerrymandering-opinion/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Why would anyone in their own country allow non citizens to vote? That just seems like treason. Couldn’t having non citizens voting greatly influence who is elected and (therefore) policy? It just sounds like it’s so crazy it can’t be actually something a politician (regardless of political party) could actually consider. Iirc the new york situation was something along the lines of "no taxation without representation" type thinking. It was attempt to give people who live and contribute to their communities a voice in the issues that affect them directly as it was restricted to municipal elections. Short sighted yes, but not the egregious power grab it's being made out to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 17 hours ago, nuckin_futz said: What's next they gonna try to sell one of his bowel movements? Saw this yesterday....The first thing that popped into my head was that now the MAGA crowd can all prove that they're card-carrying morons..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 12 hours ago, Sabrefan1 said: Apparently NYC isn't the only place of consequence that has voted to try and give non-citizens voting rights only to have it struck down. Apparently the entire District of Columbia has tried it twice only to have it blocked in the House of Representatives. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/05/23/house-vote-dc-noncitizen-voting/ 12 hours ago, Alflives said: How exactly could a person who isn’t a citizen have the right to vote? This sounds like some kind of a scam. Only citizens of age get to vote, no? On the surface, it seems obvious doesn't it? However.... There is an old political saying, "No taxation without representation". If these "non-citizens" are paying taxes, then shouldn't they have the right to decide who represents them? I think there's an argument to be made.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, RupertKBD said: On the surface, it seems obvious doesn't it? However.... There is an old political saying, "No taxation without representation". If these "non-citizens" are paying taxes, then shouldn't they have the right to decide who represents them? I think there's an argument to be made.... Isn’t that old axiom from before the American Revolution? In our modern world people live is some countries and work in more than one other. They pay taxes to more than one country too, like hockey players. It’s clear, in this modern world, a person’s vote represents them in the country of their citizenship. The EEU allows easy movement for work but certainly wouldn’t allow non citizens to vote. Get citizenship and get to vote. Very simple rule of a modern democracy. Why would any politician want non citizens voting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 12 minutes ago, Alflives said: Isn’t that old axiom from before the American Revolution? In our modern world people live is some countries and work in more than one other. They pay taxes to more than one country too, like hockey players. It’s clear, in this modern world, a person’s vote represents them in the country of their citizenship. The EEU allows easy movement for work but certainly wouldn’t allow non citizens to vote. Get citizenship and get to vote. Very simple rule of a modern democracy. Why would any politician want non citizens voting? I don't see what difference it makes when the saying emerged, if it makes a valid point. My question to you and Sabre would be "Why?" Why is citizenship more important than being a taxpayer in the country you are currently living in? I work with several people working towards Permanent Resident status and I would have zero problem with them being allowed to vote. As to why anyone (politician or otherwise) should want a non-citizen to vote, some people believe that government should be reflective of the society at large. If someone is living and working there, then citizen or not, they are a member of that society and subject to it's laws. It seems to me that it makes every bit as much sense to allow contributing members of society to have a say in their representation, as it does to force those same people to wait years until a piece of paper says they're a "citizen".... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 5 minutes ago, RupertKBD said: I don't see what difference it makes when the saying emerged, if it makes a valid point. My question to you and Sabre would be "Why?" Why is citizenship more important than being a taxpayer in the country you are currently living in? I work with several people working towards Permanent Resident status and I would have zero problem with them being allowed to vote. As to why anyone (politician or otherwise) should want a non-citizen to vote, some people believe that government should be reflective of the society at large. If someone is living and working there, then citizen or not, they are a member of that society and subject to it's laws. It seems to me that it makes every bit as much sense to allow contributing members of society to have a say in their representation, as it does to force those same people to wait years until a piece of paper says they're a "citizen".... Why bother having a border, or immigration laws? I don't want someone having a say in our laws until they have a stake in living here. Of course citizenship matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 37 minutes ago, RupertKBD said: On the surface, it seems obvious doesn't it? However.... There is an old political saying, "No taxation without representation". If these "non-citizens" are paying taxes, then shouldn't they have the right to decide who represents them? I think there's an argument to be made.... I get your point, but we're often too half-assed with how we do things here and our politicians aren't getting anymore honest as time goes on. There's just too much opportunity for abuse for my liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 7 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Why bother having a border, or immigration laws? I don't want someone having a say in our laws until they have a stake in living here. Of course citizenship matters. You don't think living and working in a country is having a stake? I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, RupertKBD said: You don't think living and working in a country is having a stake? I disagree. So say eg you go work in Mexico for a few years, you think you've earned the right to vote there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 3 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: I get your point, but we're often too half-assed with how we do things here and our politicians aren't getting anymore honest as time goes on. There's just too much opportunity for abuse for my liking. To be clear, (and it appears that a couple of people here are misinterpreting what I'm saying) I'm not advocating giving voting cards to people who sneak across the border and apply for immigrant status. I'm talking about people who are living and working in the country and contributing to it's tax base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Just now, Bob Long said: So say eg you go work in Mexico for a few years, you think you've earned the right to vote there? If I paid my taxes like everyone else? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, RupertKBD said: If I paid my taxes like everyone else? Yes. Huh. I think you have a very low bar for what citizenship means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Just now, Bob Long said: Huh. I think you have a very low bar for what citizenship means. What does it mean? More to the point, why do you think it would be such a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, RupertKBD said: To be clear, (and it appears that a couple of people here are misinterpreting what I'm saying) I'm not advocating giving voting cards to people who sneak across the border and apply for immigrant status. I'm talking about people who are living and working in the country and contributing to it's tax base. I understood what you meant. I just don't think that our political system is in a place right now where we can trust that to not be abused. Like I said in an earlier post, there were politicians floating the idea of fast tracking millions of border crossers into citizens. Fortunately that idea didn't last long, but it could easily rear it's head again in the future by people looking to put their thumb on the scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RupertKBD said: What does it mean? that you have a permanent status to the rights and privileges in the constitution, which you can then pass on to your kids? what do you think it means? Just because the US and Canada choose to treat people working in our countries with the same rights for things like labour laws, it doesn't mean that they should have the same rights in full and be able to vote. 10 minutes ago, RupertKBD said: More to the point, why do you think it would be such a bad thing? because they don't have the same stake in being a citizen as you or I do. I don't want someone without a stake in Canada (or the US if I were American) having a say in our laws, just because they happened to earn a salary here for a while, that seems ridiculous to me. Look at the folks who have Canadian citizenship but live as ex-pats. The only time we hear from those people is when they want a flight out of some bad situation. We'd just be creating more of that. Edited May 24 by Bob Long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 6 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: I understood what you meant. I just don't think that our political system is in a place right now where we can trust that to not be abused. Like I said in an earlier post, there were politicians floating the idea of fast tracking millions of border crossers into citizens. Fortunately that idea didn't last long, but it could easily rear it's head again in the future by people looking to put their thumb on the scale. I get what you're saying, but I think it's an extreme example. I think the US government should have a pretty good handle on who has been paying taxes and for how long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Just now, RupertKBD said: I get what you're saying, but I think it's an extreme example. I think the US government should have a pretty good handle on who has been paying taxes and for how long. Petey pays Canadian taxes. Should he be able to vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 2 minutes ago, Bob Long said: that you have a permanent status to the rights and privileges in the constitution, which you can then pass on to your kids? what do you think it means? Just because the US and Canada choose to treat people working in our countries with the same rights for things like labour laws, it doesn't mean that they should have the same rights in full and be able to vote. because they don't have the same stake in being a citizen as you or I do. I don't want someone without a stake in Canada (or the US if I were American) having a say in our laws, just because they happened to earn a salary here for a while, that seems ridiculous to me. Look at the folks who have Canadian citizenship but live as ex-pats. The only time we hear from those people is when they want a flight out of some bad situation. We'd just be creating more of that. I think that's a bit melodramatic, TBH. I think they have a stake if they're living and working here, but I doubt we'll ever agree on this, so I'll just leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: Petey pays Canadian taxes. Should he be able to vote? Sure. Why not? What actual danger is there in that? AS I said earlier, I work with several people who are working towards PR, but are not yet citizens. I'm totally fine with them being allowed to vote and frankly I can't see why some are so afraid of the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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