US Politics Thread

[Canuckle]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Much of that happened under the current voting system in the US. 

 

You seem to think voting in the US is a useless exercise.

 

Oh.. oh no. Dude, no.

 

These changes don't happen out of the kindness of their fucking hearts, dude.  The entire system is meant to represent the people, by the people, for the people... with PROPERTY. 

 

Being part of an underclass devoid of rights is not their concern... never was never will be until people make it a concern. This is the avenue to do that.

 

For example where do you think the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week comes from?  The state did that all on their own? Absolutely not.

 

You should read about the labour movements in the US which FORCED "the new deal" and why those concessions were made.

 

The point is a class divided is powerless to change things. The belief in red vs blue is yet another tactic the elite and THEIR political system use to subjugate.

 

There's an old saying "if voting made any difference they'd make it illegal."

 

I'm not saying don't throw your vote at the person that wants to kill us less than the other guy. Give er.   But do not put your faith in the system to bring about the kinds of changes society needs, that working class people need to survive and thrive.... especially in a system as corrupt and broken as the US. That's the bottomline.

 

You force changes using other methods.  This is stuff Bernie Sanders was talking about. "Bring people together."

 

Less class infighting and more discussion about top and bottom, class warfare which affects all don't belong to that economic and political elite. That's what's really important.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Canuckle

[Bob Long]

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Oh.. oh no. Dude, no.

 

These changes don't happen out of the kindness of their fucking hearts, dude.  The entire system is meant to represent the people, by the people, for the people... with PROPERTY. 

 

yes, property. Show me a country without property rights that isn't a shit hole. 

 

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Being part of an underclass devoid of rights is not their concern... never was never will be until people make it a concern. This is the avenue to do that.

 

For example where do you think the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week comes from?  The state did that all on their own? Absolutely not.

 

it came from people getting organized. Like I'm suggesting U40s in the US do to get candidates that speak for them. 

 

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

You should read about the labour movements in the US which FORCED "the new deal" and why those concessions were made.

 

The point is a class divided is powerless to change things. The belief in red vs blue is yet another tactic the elite and THEIR political system use to subjugate.

 

There's an old saying "if voting made any difference they'd make it illegal."

 

I'm not saying don't throw your vote at the person that wants to kill us less than the other guy. Give er.   But do not put your faith in the system to bring about the kinds of changes society needs, that working class people need to survive and thrive.... especially in a system as corrupt and broken as the US. That's the bottomline.

 

You force changes using other methods.  This is stuff Bernie Sanders was talking about. "Bring people together."

 

don't lump Bernie in with this Marx-light stuff you are suggesting. He's never been that. 

 

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Less class infighting and more discussion about top and bottom, class warfare which affects all don't belong to that economic and political elite. That's what's really important.

 

nah, its not. Again this Marx-light stuff isn't at all what the US needs. Even with all its problems the US is still the best country on the planet to start a business and get ahead. 

 

This class stuff is the red herring. U40s need to get off their asses in the US and vote. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bob Long

[StrayDog]

49 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Oh.. oh no. Dude, no.

 

These changes don't happen out of the kindness of their fucking hearts, dude.  The entire system is meant to represent the people, by the people, for the people... with PROPERTY. 

 

Being part of an underclass devoid of rights is not their concern... never was never will be until people make it a concern. This is the avenue to do that.

 

For example where do you think the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week comes from?  The state did that all on their own? Absolutely not.

 

You should read about the labour movements in the US which FORCED "the new deal" and why those concessions were made.

 

The point is a class divided is powerless to change things. The belief in red vs blue is yet another tactic the elite and THEIR political system use to subjugate.

 

There's an old saying "if voting made any difference they'd make it illegal."

 

I'm not saying don't throw your vote at the person that wants to kill us less than the other guy. Give er.   But do not put your faith in the system to bring about the kinds of changes society needs, that working class people need to survive and thrive.... especially in a system as corrupt and broken as the US. That's the bottomline.

 

You force changes using other methods.  This is stuff Bernie Sanders was talking about. "Bring people together."

 

Less class infighting and more discussion about top and bottom, class warfare which affects all don't belong to that economic and political elite. That's what's really important.

So then, do you vote? Or no?

 

[Canuckle]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

yes, property. Show me a country without property rights that isn't a shit hole. 

 

...it came from people getting organized. Like I'm suggesting U40s in the US do to get candidates that speak for them. 

 

...don't lump Bernie in with this Marx-light stuff you are suggesting. He's never been that. 

 

...nah, its not. Again this Marx-light stuff isn't at all what the US needs. Even with all its problems the US is still the best country on the planet to start a business and get ahead. 

 

...This class stuff is the red herring. U40s need to get off their asses in the US and vote. 

 

As depressing as it may be, everything I wrote is accurate.

 

1) your "property" and "how the US is best" comments are fairly off base, both in accuracy and in terms of understanding the definition, and would require much unpacking so we'll table that for now. And frankly wouldn't be relevant to this thread anyway.

 

2) Bernie not "Marx-light?" Call it whatever you want-- Bernie Sanders is a democratic SOCIALIST and publicly declared himself as such many many times. (Technically he's a social democrat from a leftist perspective) but he is very much a proponent.

 

FYI, socialist political philosophy PREDATES Marx.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Bernie_Sanders

 

3) No. Class is very much a thing. Just a matter of spending time actually looking behind the curtain to understand it, and reflecting on your own life:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_stratification

 

Tap into that sociological imagination my friend.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological_imagination

 

Delve into some critical theory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory

 

Once you open that pandoras box you realize how much of the world you never knew... and most importantly what you can and cannot speak to.  And my hope is that everyone gets there one day. As depressing as all this is, it is also liberating.

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

As depressing as it may be, everything I wrote is accurate.

 

1) your "property" and "how the US is best" comments are fairly off base, both in accuracy and in terms of understanding the definition, and would require much unpacking so we'll table that for now. And frankly wouldn't be relevant to this thread anyway.

 

2) Bernie not "Marx-light?" Call it whatever you want-- Bernie Sanders is a democratic SOCIALIST and publicly declared himself as such many many times. (Technically he's a social democrat from a leftist perspective) but he is very much a proponent.

 

FYI, socialist political philosophy PREDATES Marx.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Bernie_Sanders

 

3) No. Class is very much a thing. Just a matter of spending time actually looking behind the curtain to understand it, and reflecting on your own life:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_stratification

 

Tap into that sociological imagination my friend.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological_imagination

 

Delve into some critical theory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory

 

Once you open that pandoras box you realize how much of the world you never knew... and most importantly what you can and cannot speak to.  And my hope is that everyone gets there one day. As depressing as all this is, it is also liberating.

 

suggesting that the US and Iran are the "same" is beyond ridiculous. 

 

Bernie isn't a democratic SOCIALIST he's a "democratic socialist" i.e. he works within a democracy for better changes.

 

Yes the US is the best country in the world in which to start a business. Thats pretty fundamental. 

 

Again, do like Bernie, work for change and get out and vote. 

 

[Canuckle]

4 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

So then, do you vote? Or no?

 

Well I'm Canadian, but sure do.

 

As I said above, yes, go ahead and vote for the people that appear to want to hurt us peasants the least. lol

 

BUT that doesn't mean we should put our total faith in the system though, know what I mean? That's important part.

[StrayDog]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Well I'm Canadian, but sure do.

 

As I said above, yes, go ahead and vote for the people that appear to want to hurt us peasants the least. lol

 

BUT that doesn't mean we should put our total faith in the system though, know what I mean? That's important part.

Ok, you vote. Good. 

Do you only vote for national elections, or do you get involved in local elections?

 

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

suggesting that the US and Iran are the "same" is beyond ridiculous. 

 

Bernie isn't a democratic SOCIALIST he's a "democratic socialist" i.e. he works within a democracy for better changes.

 

Yes the US is the best country in the world in which to start a business. Thats pretty fundamental. 

 

Again, do like Bernie, work for change and get out and vote.

 

1) Bernie isn't a democratic socialist...he's a democratic socialist?

Did you have a typo there?

 

Yes. Bernie Sanders is very a democratic socialist. We're on the same page. Now do you want to discuss what that ACTUALLY means?

 

2) You completely missed the point of that quote from the Iranian writer.

 

Ie. You're saying you have absolutely nothing in common with the Iranian people when it comes to the power dynamic?

 

3) "Murica best country in the world" delving into both americentric and American exceptionalism territory now. Not a good look.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism

 

4) I like how you completely disregarded everything else I wrote and chose to go with.... whatever you just said there.

 

You know I'm beginning to think you just don't want to talk about class and power dynamics in US politics. Lol

 

But hey you go ahead and focus on the fashy dick sucker and the orange clown show.  Life is easier that way.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

 

1) Bernie isn't a democratic socialist...he's a democratic socialist?

Did you have a typo there?

 

Yes. Bernie Sanders is very a democratic socialist. We're on the same page. Now do you want to discuss what that ACTUALLY means?

 

2) You completely missed the point of that quote from the Iranian writer.

 

Ie. You're saying you have absolutely nothing in common with the Iranian people when it comes to the power dynamic?

 

3) "Murica best country in the world" delving into both americentric and American exceptionalism territory now. Not a good look.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism

 

4) I like how you completely disregarded everything else I wrote and chose to go with.... whatever you just said there.

 

You know I'm beginning to think you just don't want to talk about class and power dynamics in US politics. Lol

 

But hey you go ahead and focus on the fashy dick sucker and the orange clown show.  Life is easier that way.

 

Ok so explain how in your utopian US remake, why I should bother to put in any effort? You seem young and energetic, I think I'll let you grow my potatoes for me.

[Canuckle]

19 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Ok, you vote. Good. 

Do you only vote for national elections, or do you get involved in local elections?

 

Local, too. Involved where I can be.

[Bob Long]

28 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

3) "Murica best country in the world" delving into both americentric and American exceptionalism territory now. Not a good look.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism

 

 

 

But it simply is the best place for a new business. It's just a fact.

 

You bringing in this other theoretical stuff is useless.

[Satchmo]

25 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

1) Bernie isn't a democratic socialist...he's a democratic socialist?

Did you have a typo there?

 

Yes. Bernie Sanders is very a democratic socialist. We're on the same page. Now do you want to discuss what that ACTUALLY means?

 

2) You completely missed the point of that quote from the Iranian writer.

 

Ie. You're saying you have absolutely nothing in common with the Iranian people when it comes to the power dynamic?

 

3) "Murica best country in the world" delving into both americentric and American exceptionalism territory now. Not a good look.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism

 

4) I like how you completely disregarded everything else I wrote and chose to go with.... whatever you just said there.

 

You know I'm beginning to think you just don't want to talk about class and power dynamics in US politics. Lol

 

But hey you go ahead and focus on the fashy dick sucker and the orange clown show.  Life is easier that way.

He who speaks in memes recently asked if you were high.  Not sure if that is the case but I'm beginning to think your horse might be.

 

You make some good points.   You also ascribe to anarchism and that is going to make it hard for others to agree completely with you or completely understand your point of view.

 

Most of the disagreements have been polite.  I think the response above is not.   

 

 

[Canuckle]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

But it simply is the best place for a new business. It's just a fact.

 

You bringing in this other theoretical stuff is useless.

 

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

He who speaks in memes recently asked if you were high.  Not sure if that is the case but I'm beginning to think your horse might be.

 

You make some good points.   You also ascribe to anarchism and that is going to make it hard for others to agree completely with you or completely understand your point of view.

 

Most of the disagreements have been polite.  I think the response above is not.   

 

 

 

Which responses? I assume you mean theirs.

 

I came here in good faith to discuss US politics-- the political system itself. And its clear a few key individuals really don't want to do that. Yet they keep replying to me with hostility, handwaving, and a whole lot of disinformation.

 

It doesn't matter what political philosophical position I hold. I have nothing to do with this.

 

It's about INFORMATION and  EDUCATION on the topic.

 

We're talking the nature of power in the US political system as a whole and the means and methods to addressing it.

 

Nothing less, nothing more.

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

Which responses? I assume you mean theirs.

 

I came here in good faith to discuss US politics-- the political system itself. And its clear a few key individuals really don't want to do that. Yet they keep replying to me with hostility, handwaving, and a whole lot of disinformation.

 

It doesn't matter what political philosophical position I hold. I have nothing to do with this.

 

It's about INFORMATION and  EDUCATION on the topic.

 

We're talking the nature of power in the US political system as a whole and the means and methods to addressing it.

 

Nothing less, nothing more.

My only response is to mention the high horse part again.    

[Canuckle]

17 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

But it simply is the best place for a new business. It's just a fact.

 

You bringing in this other theoretical stuff is useless.

 

I stand by my previous comment.

 

You really don't want to talk about class dynamics and power in the US political system.

 

So can just leave it there.

 

Have a good day.

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

My only response is to mention the high horse part again.    

 

That's your response to the discussion? Get off your high horse?

 

Education is not a dirty word, my friend.

I don't care if you like how I respond to the people attacking me, purporting their half truths, misreadings, and even revisionist history. That shit might fly with others who don't know any better or are intimidated by it, but I'm not. And frankly fuck them and fuck you too if that's all you have to say to me.

 

But I'd like to keep this on track and discuss US Politics, thanks.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I stand by my previous comment.

 

You really don't want to talk about class dynamics and power in the US political system.

 

So can just leave it there.

 

Have a good day.

 

no one is being hostile to you personally. Your ideas you are posting are being challenged.

 

You are proposing a failed class theory and failed socialist changes to the US political system. Show me a single example of where its been successful as a government. 

[Bob Long]

27 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

We're talking the nature of power in the US political system as a whole and the means and methods to addressing it.

 

Nothing less, nothing more.

 

right. And they've already provided that in how candidates and parties can be chosen. The US doesn't need failed/recycled Marxist drivel to change for the better.

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

 

That's your response to the discussion? Get off your high horse?

 

Education is not a dirty word, my friend.

I don't care if you like how I respond to the people attacking me, purporting their half truths, misreadings, and even revisionist history. That shit might fly with others who don't know any better or are intimidated by it, but I'm not. And frankly fuck them and fuck you too if that's all you have to say to me.

 

But I'd like to keep this on track and discuss US Politics, thanks.

Good one.   Are you proving my point or yours?   

 

While we are talking please consider the possibility that some of the things you have said, amongst some very good and humane points, are really hard to decipher.

 

It took me a while to figure out what you were promoting.  (remember our first few back & forths?)   Since that I've become confused again and again by statements that I'm sure you felt were crystal clear as you wrote them.

 

My involvement today started because I thought you had overreacted to someone who disagreed with you.   I still feel that way   I also get the impression you think we'd all agree with you if only we weren't so stupid and short sighted.

[Canuckle]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

no one is being hostile to you personally. Your ideas you are posting are being challenged.

 

You are proposing a failed class theory and failed socialist changes to the US political system. Show me a single example of where its been successful as a government. 

 

If you want to talk about the history of socialist political philosophy and your views about that go ahead and start a brand new thread. That conversation doesn't belong here. I didn't take it to that place nor was it my intention to do so. But if that's what you want to do, I'll happily meet you there.

[Playoff Beered]

47 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

He who speaks in memes recently asked if you were high.  Not sure if that is the case but I'm beginning to think your horse might be.

 

You make some good points.   You also ascribe to anarchism and that is going to make it hard for others to agree completely with you or completely understand your point of view.

 

Most of the disagreements have been polite.  I think the response above is not.   

 

[Playoff Beered]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

If you want to talk about the history of socialist political philosophy and your views about that go ahead and start a brand new thread. That conversation doesn't belong here. I didn't take it to that place nor was it my intention to do so. But if that's what you want to do, I'll happily meet you there.

 

Dodge to a very simple question. Name one success story.

[Canuckle]

15 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

While we are talking please consider the possibility that some of the things you have said, amongst some very good and humane points, are really hard to decipher.

 

It took me a while to figure out what you were promoting.  (remember our first few back & forths?)   Since that I've become confused again and again by statements that I'm sure you felt were crystal clear as you wrote them.

 

 

Okay. Let's start over.

 

Which parts were you confused about or find hard to decipher? I'll try to explain if you like.

 

[Canuckle]

17 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Dodge to a very simple question. Name one success story.

 

Back to chime in again I see. Lol.

 

There are TONS of successes and in many different many ways. And not only is that a loaded question (perhaps the most loaded question in modern history) that inquiry does not belong here.

 

Like I told the other user. Go start a new thread and we can have that discussion if you really want to.

[Playoff Beered]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

Back to chime in again I see. Lol.

 

There are TONS of successes and in many different many ways. And not only is that a loaded question (perhaps the most loaded question in modern history) that inquiry does not belong here.

 

Like I told the other user. Go start a new thread and we can have that discussion if you really want to.

 

Right, so you're basically saying you got nothing. You're actually trying to convince people, that asking for one success story regarding a political system, doesn't belong in a US politics thread.