US Politics Thread

[Playoff Beered]

10 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ok so I'm actually gonna ask this because it's important.

 

60 years ago.  Would this image have looked flipped?

 

The answer is yes.  The Republican party used to be the party of the people though the 40s, 50s.

 

Now.  Answer me this.  How are they actually different?  Which party is actively changing things for the people?  Don't give me the weak "democrats care for the people bullshit" because they have senators and Congress people that have voted to keep the exact same system harming people in place for 3-4-5 decades

 

How are they different?  Which party will vote against their own safety and pay check?  Which one would out Sally the single mother of 3 on food stamps on their back and give them an actual chance at getting out of the system they've benefitted under since around 77/78

 

The answer is neither because both parties are the same.  They both benefit under the system.  They would both run your gd mother down to protect their own safety as opposed to voting to change things so they had less power and benefits and you had more.

 

I don't give a randy shit about your memes.  Really don't.  The time for childishness is kind of over in this conversation.  Pretending one party would cut their own throats to better your life at the expense of theirs is about as fucking ludicrous as Jesus being a white PBR drinking Republican from Kentucky with a mullet.

 

Both parties are the same.  Period.  Regardless of whatever lio service they've given the masses.  They are the same.

 

You start by asking in your words an "important" question, then you answer it and it turns out to be completely irrelevant to my point, it does not matter that they switched in the 40's and 50's. The fact is that the two are not the same, they are part of the same system, yes, but they want different things. If you can't see that then there is no point in going further.

 

I and most people that have any interest in politics figured out in junior high that the system is rigged, that big business has controlling interests in all the big parties. This isn't some kind of big revelation, though your new BFF @Canuckle seems to think that he's the only one in the room thats figured it out and is now spamming the same meme over and over and over again to educate us "Normies".

 

No one except for the MAGA's and really stupid people expects any party to cut their own throats to better your life at the expense of theirs, (Apologies if you are one of those people expecting that from a political party) but to say that there is no difference whatsoever sends the message that there is no point in voting. Do you think any MAGA's or old retired folks will get on board with that notion? No they won't, and then you've just handed them the election, but hey who cares because we know it's all the same and we figured it out, right? Except then they enact all their repressive abortion laws and racist immigration policies and then they come for anyone who isn't white and christian etc. and we know from history where that leads. See early 1900's Italy, Spain and Germany, all countries with a strong anarchist movement at the time. No thanks. Yes I know anarchism itself doesn’t encourage fascism but it also doesn’t offer anything concrete to prevent against an aspiring fascist from taking over. Essentially, what I'm saying is anarchy eventually leads to fascism.

 

The parties are different. Period. Regardless of whatever lip service you and Canuckle are giving to the masses.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[King Heffy]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

But its also true that young voters can't be bothered to get involved. I have no time for the whining when people can't make the barest of effort to vote for the changes they want to see. 

I'm a pretty big believer that people who don't vote shouldn't complain.

[Canuckle]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

I'm curious how many of the "lets have anarchy for a little while" crowd are willing to put their livelihoods one the line for that?

 

No, the two parties are not the same in the US. One group continually tries to eat into a social safety net that makes sense everywhere else in the world.

 

Are both parties in the US at the trough? you bet. 

 

But its also true that young voters can't be bothered to get involved. I have no time for the whining when people can't make the barest of effort to vote for the changes they want to see. 

 

"Have anarchy for a little while."

 

You mean like when labor movements fought for the 8 hour work day? 

 

 

Ohhhh no not that.  Not.... collective power making demands for a better existence

 

LMAO

 

It's about avenues for change because the political system ain't gonna do it for you.  it's a rigged system and people buying into the bullshit game.

 

 

End of story

Edited October 10, 2023 by Canuckle

[Gurn]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

I'm curious how many of the "lets have anarchy for a little while" crowd are willing to put their livelihoods one the line for that?

 

No, the two parties are not the same in the US. One group continually tries to eat into a social safety net that makes sense everywhere else in the world.

 

Are both parties in the US at the trough? you bet. 

 

But its also true that young voters can't be bothered to get involved. I have no time for the whining when people can't make the barest of effort to vote for the changes they want to see. 

Whole lot of people in threads like this don't do a f in thing to change anything.

Just come up to places like this , piss and moan and do nothing else.

Some don't even vote, at any level.

Most don't attend  city council/ public meetings; nor pre election open houses.

Most don't belong or financially support a party they mostly agree with.

Most don't march or stand on a street corner, or in front of a government office with signage saying 'what's wrong'.

 

But come up here and bitch- then do nothing else:

 

Democracy takes work, most are too lazy to bother.

[Satchmo]

5 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

"Have anarchy for a little while."

 

You mean like when labor movements fought for the 8 hour work day? 

 

 

I don't see the connection between those two.   Unless you can convince me that ALL labor organizers were anarchists.  I'd bet some were.   Socialists too.   I thank them all.

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

"Have anarchy for a little while."

 

You mean like when labor movements fought for the 8 hour work day? 

 

 

Ohhhh no not that.  Not.... collective power making demands for a better existence

 

LMAO

 

It's about avenues for change because the political system ain't gonna do it for you.  it's a rigged system and people buying into the bullshit game.

 

 

End of story

 

the labour movemnet wasn't anarchy. 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Whole lot of people in threads like this don't do a f in thing to change anything.

Just come up to places like this , piss and moan and do nothing else.

Some don't even vote, at any level.

Most don't attend  city council/ public meetings; nor pre election open houses.

Most don't belong or financially support a party they mostly agree with.

Most don't march or stand on a street corner, or in front of a government office with signage saying 'what's wrong'.

 

But come up here and bitch- then do nothing else:

 

Democracy takes work, most are too lazy to bother.

 

 

whats really sad to me is how much power people are throwing away. I keep using the example of Steve Bannon because he showed the power of showing up to primaries in the US.

 

The US left needs someone influential to get people involved at the candidate selection level. Once they do that, they will see much more of what they want. 

 

[Bob Long]

21 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

No one except for the MAGA's and really stupid people expects any party to cut their own throats to better your life at the expense of theirs, (Apologies if you are one of those people expecting that from a political party) but to say that there is no difference whatsoever sends the message that there is no point in voting.

 

this is a really important point. Who does it serve to push the idea that "both parties are the same" so don't vote? 

 

The US is a weird place tho. Some people thought it was a good idea to vote for Trump when Hillary got the nomination to "shake things up." If people can't see now how bad of an idea that was I don't know what to say. 

[Canuckle]

9 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

Anarchism itself doesn’t encourage fascism but it also doesn’t offer anything concrete to prevent against an aspiring fascist from taking over. Essentially, what I'm saying is anarchy eventually leads to fascism.

 

You're saying the previous fascist in the white house was....because of anarchism? Apparently you are.  And you're 100% wrong yet again.

 

The nature of CAPITALISM is what leads to fascism.

 

Fascism is just capitalism IN DECAY.

 

(And spoiler alert Liberalism and capitalism go hand in hand too, fyi)

 

Populist leads like Hitler and the Orange Clown happens REGARDLESS of any movements fighting for emancipation in some way shape or form because of the fucking system.

 

And you've already shown in full flying fucking colors you don't know what anarchism even is so you can kindly sit the fuck down and eat your snack pack, kid.

 

You're done here.

 

I've heard enough.
 

 

 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

You're saying the previous fascist in the white house was....because of anarchism? Apparently you are.  And you're 100% wrong yet again.

 

The nature of CAPITALISM is what leads to fascism.

 

Fascism is just capitalism IN DECAY.

 

(And spoiler alert Liberalism and capitalism go hand in hand too, fyi)

 

Populist leads like Hitler and the Orange Clown happens REGARDLESS of any movements fighting for emancipation in some way shape or form because of the fucking system.

 

And you've already shown in full flying fucking colors you don't know what anarchism even is so you can kindly sit the fuck down and eat your snack pack, kid.

 

You're done here.

 

I've heard enough.
 

 

 

 

um, OK. So 1) please show me a viable alternative to a free market capitalist system, and 2) how this would be achievable in the US.

[Canuckle]

17 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I don't see the connection between those two.   Unless you can convince me that ALL labor organizers were anarchists.  I'd bet some were.   Socialists too.   I thank them all.

 

Leftists of many flavors, indeed. I'd say maybe a read a book even watch a few documentaries on the history of social movements, labor movements/unions, etc. The vast vast majority of these things we take for granted come from those movements. People willing to protest and put their lives on the line to get them

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Leftists of many flavors, indeed. I'd say maybe a read a book even watch a few documentaries on the history of social movements, labor movements/unions, etc. The vast vast majority of these things we take for granted come from those movements. People willing to protest and put their lives on the line to get them

 

you are correct on one point, people do take a lot for granted today. 

[Playoff Beered]

16 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

You're saying the previous fascist in the white house was....because of anarchism? Apparently you are.  And you're 100% wrong yet again.

 

The nature of CAPITALISM is what leads to fascism.

 

Fascism is just capitalism IN DECAY.

 

(And spoiler alert Liberalism and capitalism go hand in hand too, fyi)

 

Populist leads like Hitler and the Orange Clown happens REGARDLESS of any movements fighting for emancipation in some way shape or form because of the fucking system.

 

And you've already shown in full flying fucking colors you don't know what anarchism even is so you can kindly sit the fuck down and eat your snack pack, kid.

 

You're done here.

 

I've heard enough.

 

With communication skills like this I'm sure you'll convince lots of people to see your point of view. Good luck.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Canuckle]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

um, OK. So 1) please show me a viable alternative to a free market capitalist system, and 2) how this would be achievable in the US.

 

You didn't ask that question in good faith and you don't care what the answer is anyway.

 

But yes, there are better economic systems and ways to organize society that don't involve slavery and domination.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Canuckle said:

 

You didn't ask that question in good faith and you don't care what the answer is anyway.

 

But yes, there are better economic systems and ways to organize society that don't involve slavery and domination.

 

no I did, and I do. Show me a successful example. 

[Canuckle]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

you are correct on one point, people do take a lot for granted today. 

 

I am correct on all points, thanks.

 

Leftists of many flavors, social movements, labour movements, unions, etc  etc. are the reason we have many rights and safety regulations, limits on exploitation, pensions and other social safety nets.

 

Not the state. Not from capitalists.

 

But from leftists demanding those things and willing to bleed and die to get them. And they have.

[Canuckle]

21 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no I did, and I do. Show me a successful example. 

 

What you don't know how to read or use Google?  Read a god damn book.

 

TONS of info out there if you actually wanted to know the answer to that question.

 

Yes, there are far better ways to organize a society and an economy rather than based on exploitation and domination.  They exist, even in pockets in the United States today.

[Bob Long]

32 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I am correct on all points, thanks.

 

Leftists of many flavors, social movements, labour movements, unions, etc  etc. are the reason we have many rights and safety regulations, limits on exploitation, pensions and other social safety nets.

 

Not the state. Not from capitalists.

 

But from leftists demanding those things and willing to bleed and die to get them. And they have.

 

People organized for a more fair share within a capitalist economy. You seem to have missed that part.

 

You also seem to have no understanding of the systems the US put in place over the years to implement things like safety in the workplace.

 

Again please tie this to current US politics.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bob Long

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

What you don't know how to read or use Google?  Read a god damn book.

 

TONS of info out there if you actually wanted to know the answer to that question.

 

Yes, there are far better ways to organize a society and an economy rather than based on exploitation and domination.  They exist, even in pockets in the United States today.

 

Right so you can't provide a successful example. 

[Satchmo]

43 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Leftists of many flavors, indeed. I'd say maybe a read a book even watch a few documentaries on the history of social movements, labor movements/unions, etc. The vast vast majority of these things we take for granted come from those movements. People willing to protest and put their lives on the line to get them

Well I have to admit my first thought was to be offended, which is admittedly silly.   But please don't presume to know what I have read or studied just because we've disagreed on a few things.

 

I am well aware of the involvement of socialists in the movements you mentioned.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Democracy takes work, most are too lazy to bother.

 

I know this is the US Politics thread, but I think a quote by a former (and late) Rt. Hon. fits the bill here:

 

"Democracy doesn't happen by accident." 

                             -- Rt. Hon. John Turner, 17th PM of Canada.

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

You start by asking in your words an "important" question, then you answer it and it turns out to be completely irrelevant to my point, it does not matter that they switched in the 40's and 50's. The fact is that the two are not the same, they are part of the same system, yes, but they want different things. If you can't see that then there is no point in going further.

 

I and most people that have any interest in politics figured out in junior high that the system is rigged, that big business has controlling interests in all the big parties. This isn't some kind of big revelation, though your new BFF @Canuckle seems to think that he's the only one in the room thats figured it out and is now spamming the same meme over and over and over again to educate us "Normies".

 

No one except for the MAGA's and really stupid people expects any party to cut their own throats to better your life at the expense of theirs, (Apologies if you are one of those people expecting that from a political party) but to say that there is no difference whatsoever sends the message that there is no point in voting. Do you think any MAGA's or old retired folks will get on board with that notion? No they won't, and then you've just handed them the election, but hey who cares because we know it's all the same and we figured it out, right? Except then they enact all their repressive abortion laws and racist immigration policies and then they come for anyone who isn't white and christian etc. and we know from history where that leads. See early 1900's Italy, Spain and Germany, all countries with a strong anarchist movement at the time. No thanks. Yes I know anarchism itself doesn’t encourage fascism but it also doesn’t offer anything concrete to prevent against an aspiring fascist from taking over. Essentially, what I'm saying is anarchy eventually leads to fascism.

 

The parties are different. Period. Regardless of whatever lip service you and Canuckle are giving to the masses.

Tell me you don't get it without saying it.

 

You can say the message is different.  One cares more than the other 

 

But when I ask you to show me any single time one of either party (not named AOC or Sanders who are deemed radicals) voted to end the system they've created to help others.

 

I'm sure you'll have insane amounts of examples to give me because obviously they're totally different and haven't just lathered, rinsed and repeated since the 70s.

 

Right?  My dude?  Dude?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Warhippy

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

the labour movemnet wasn't anarchy. 

Tell that to the people in charge when the labour movement started.

 

Any power shift in which the people force to affect change to their betterment is considered a form of anarchy to the establishment.

[Calamity K]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:15 AM, 4petesake said:

 

OK what am I missing? 
Conservative does not necessarily ≠ Republican and liberal does not necessarily ≠ Democrat.

Am I to believe that small c conservatives wanted to abolish slavery and social justice libs wanted to keep it?

Being Conservative politically does not mean you believe in no change, it means you believe in solid support from the population before you make that change. Lincoln abhorred slavery personally, but did not attempt to eliminate it until there was solid public support. That is conservative. Pushing ahead quickly with change can be a mistake, for instance in this case, maybe the South would have won the war had Lincoln been more Liberal minded, and we would still have slavery. As you know, there is no Conservative party in the US, so maybe we just use Republican and Democrat in this thread going forward.

[Canuckle]

24 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

People organized for a more fair share within a capitalist economy. You seem to have missed that part.

 

You also seem to have no understanding of the systems the US put in place over the years to implement things like safety in the workplace.

 

Again please tie this to current US politics.

 

Unfortunately you're wrong.

 

Keeping capitalism in the US was a concession not a request by those fighting for rights and freedoms.

 

Read about "the new deal." How that happened. What the demands were.

 

As they say safety regulations are written in blood.  Also, you're wrong again. Businesses don't these things out of the kindness of their hearts. They do it because they are forced to. It costs money.

 

Christ the only reason there is a minimum wage is because if an employer could pay you less THEY WOULD.

 

People force the state to make those kinds of changes. It doesn't come from business or from the state itself but from working people.

 

It's all about who's demands are met and what kind of leverage they have to get it. The wealthy have power, property and the system works in the favour to get more.

 

What do working class people have?

Not that. So what do they have to do to get those demands met? Whatever it takes.

 

It's called class conflict for good reason.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

 

And that there is the epitome of the US political system.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Canuckle