Sabrefan1 Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 6 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: Are you sure you didn't mean Soviet Russia? Nazi Germany - especially at its ascension - was most certainly on the right. 5 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: That's why I put what I put in parenthesis. At the time, Nazi'ism was considered a far left philosophy. Not today obviously. I just gave it more thought. I remember reading a book a while back that argued that it was too simplistic to say that either country was far left or far right. I do remember learning in University that the Nazi's considered themselves far left, but they also considered themselves a master race, so it really doesn't matter what they think. I Googled a chapter of a different book than the one that I read that similarly argues it is too simple to say either fascism or nazi'ism is far left/right. Here's a link to a chapter of it. https://osf.io/j3pru/download 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 5 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: I Googled a chapter of a different book than the one that I read that similarly argues it is too simple to say either fascism or nazi'ism is far left/right. This I can agree with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: This I can agree with. This is the most thought I've given it in a long time. Which is probably why I got it mixed up in my mind initially. I actually enjoy learning about WW2, but haven't given the minutia of it much thought in a long time. Most media articles of today will stump on the idea that they are both right wing ideologies. Since fascism and nazi'ism are fairly dissimilar, that's just intellectually false. OK. Gave the above more thought. That's not as true as I'm making it sound. Hitler actually couldn't stand Mussolini. He just needed allies so he put up with him. Edited July 28 by Sabrefan1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 22 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: I understood what you were saying. I just don't think you have to go full on to be considered extreme. That's definitely a scary thought. True, you don't need to go full on to be considered extreme - but I think you'll probably agree that espousing communist, fascist, or exclusionary nationalist ideals and seeking their implementation would probably qualify as "extremist", even if they're not necessarily specifically "right" or "left". I would expect that some of the views of this "Squad" might fall into the "socialist" realm, but I can't imagine they'd be of the kind that pushes the fringes of socialist theory. If anything I would expect their views to be perhaps to the right of our NDP, and perhaps to the left of our federal Liberals. If NDP can't be considered extremist (and I'm pretty sure they're not, even though the members on here of right-wing persuasion would have us believe such), then you can't really call this "Squad" extremist either, can you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nuckin_futz Posted July 28 Popular Post Share Posted July 28 12 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: He joined a major party and played the members of the party like a violin. He realized that he could manipulate one party much easier than the other for various reasons. These reasons are fairly obvious. The Dems for sure have some stupid ideas and say stupid things but the things they do and say remain the same. The Republicans on the other hand have malleable values because they don't really stand for anything concrete. If Trump had attempted a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party he would have been shouted down and cast out long before he got anywhere. With the Republican Party he walked right in behaved like an ignorant lout and immediately found a home among so the so called religious who quickly warmed to a serial liar, braggart, womanizer, tax cheat all in the name of Jesus. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. Trump a political PT Barnum can spot a sucker a mile away, so his choice was easy. 1 3 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 4 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: This is the most thought I've given it in a long time. Which is probably why I got it mixed up in my mind initially. I actually enjoy learning about WW2, but haven't given the minutia of it much thought in a long time. Most media articles of today will stump on the idea that they are both right wing ideologies. Since fascism and nazi'ism are fairly dissimilar, that's just intellectually false. Hitler actually couldn't stand Mussolini. He just needed allies so he put up with him. I think in both cases, it's because of the "nationalist" element, and the flavour of nationalism that they chose (which was right-wing in nature). And because both leaders thought their country was the best, that's probably why moustache guy couldn't stand The Hanged Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: True, you don't need to go full on to be considered extreme - but I think you'll probably agree that espousing communist, fascist, or exclusionary nationalist ideals and seeking their implementation would probably qualify as "extremist", even if they're not necessarily specifically "right" or "left". I would expect that some of the views of this "Squad" might fall into the "socialist" realm, but I can't imagine they'd be of the kind that pushes the fringes of socialist theory. If anything I would expect their views to be perhaps to the right of our NDP, and perhaps to the left of our federal Liberals. If NDP can't be considered extremist (and I'm pretty sure they're not, even though the members on here of right-wing persuasion would have us believe such), then you can't really call this "Squad" extremist either, can you? Oh sure. Neither the right or left are as extreme as they could be in the US. Both are creeping more and more apart, but they have a ways to go before they hit a wall. Also, I did another cross-out of my last post. I'm answering you too quickly and changing my mind shortly after hitting the post button. I need to slow down.... lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 New information about to come out , Lets remember that this happened under Trumps watch as POTUS. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7z6Qm0OFAo/?igsh=MWN0bTlpOTNwcTdjdg== SUPPORT INDEPENDENT, FACT-BASED JOURNALISM. DONATE Menu Show Search U.S. NEWS Florida prosecutors knew Epstein raped teenage girls 2 years before cutting deal, transcript shows 1 of 2 | FILE - This photo provided by the New York State Sex Offender Registry shows Jeffrey Epstein, March 28, 2017. On Monday, July 1, 2024, Florida Circuit Judge Luis Delgado released the transcripts of a 2006 grand jury investigation that looked into sex trafficking and rape allegations made against Epstein. (New York State Sex Offender Registry via AP, File) Read More 2 of 2 | FILE - Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis speaks at the Palm Beach Police Department, Feb. 29, 2024, in Palm Beach, Fla., just before signing a bill to release the transcripts of a 2006 grand jury investigation that looked into sex trafficking and rape allegations made against Jeffrey Epstein. On Monday, July 1, 2024, Florida Circuit Judge Luis Delgado released the grand jury transcripts. (Damon Higgins/The Palm Beach Post via AP, File) BY TERRY SPENCER Updated 3:53 PM PDT, July 1, 2024 Share FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — Florida prosecutors knew the late millionaire and financier Jeffrey Epstein sexually assaulted teenage girls two years before they cut a plea deal that has long been criticized as too lenient and a missed opportunity to imprison him a decade earlier, according to transcripts released Monday. The 2006 grand jury investigation was the first of many by law enforcement over the past two decades into Epstein’s rape and sex trafficking of teenagers — and how his ties to the rich and the powerful seem to have allowed him to avoid prison or a serious jail term for over a decade. The investigations uncovered Epstein’s close tiesto former President Bill Clinton and Britain’s Prince Andrew, as well as his once friendly relationship with former President Donald Trump and numerous others of wealth and influence who have denied doing anything criminal or improper and not been charged. Circuit Judge Luis Delgado’s release of approximately 150 pages Monday came as a surprise, since there was scheduled hearing next week over unsealing the graphic testimony. Gov. Ron DeSantis had signed a bill in February allowing the release on Monday or any time thereafter that Delgado ordered. Florida grand jury transcripts are usually kept secret forever, but the bill created an exemption for cases like Epstein’s. The transcripts show that the grand jury heard testimony that Epstein, who was then in his 40s, had raped teenage girls as young as 14 at his Palm Beach mansion, often paying them so he could commit statutory rape or assault. The teenagers testified and told detectives they were also paid cash or rented cars if they found him more girls. “The details in the record will be outrageous to decent people,” Delgado wrote in his order. “The testimony taken by the Grand Jury concerns activity ranging from grossly unacceptable to rape — all of the conduct at issue is sexually deviant, disgusting, and criminal.” ADVERTISEMENT In 2008, Epstein cut a deal with South Florida federal prosecutors that allowed him to escape more severe federal charges and instead plead guilty to state charges of procuring a person under 18 for prostitution and solicitation of prostitution. He was sentenced to 1.5 years in the Palm Beach County jail system, during which he was allowed to go to his office almost daily as part of a work-release program, followed by a year of house arrest. He was required to register as a sex offender. Criticism of the deal resulted in the 2019 resignation of Trump’s labor secretary, Alex Acosta, who was the U.S. attorney for South Florida in 2008 and signed off on the deal. A 2020 Justice Department investigation concluded that Acosta used “poor judgment” in his handling of the Epstein prosecution, but it didn’t rise to the level of professional misconduct. The chief prosecutor in the Epstein case, former Palm Beach County State Attorney Barry Krischer, did not immediately respond Monday to an email and a voicemail seeking comment about the transcripts’ release. Current Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg, who was not involved in the investigation, said in a statement he is glad the records have been released. He said he has not yet read the transcripts, so could not comment on whether Krischer should have pursued a tougher prosecution of Epstein. Brad Edwards, an attorney for many of the victims, said in a statement that the transcripts show that Krischer’s office “took the case to the Grand Jury with an agenda — to return minimal, if any, criminal charges against Jeffrey Epstein.” “A fraction of the evidence was presented, in a misleading way, and the Office portrayed the victims as criminals,” he said. “It is so sad, the number of victims Epstein was able to abuse because the State carried water for him when they had a chance to put him away.” Epstein’s estate is paying $155 million in restitution to more than 125 victims. According to the transcripts, Palm Beach Police Detective Joe Recarey testified in July 2006 that the initial investigation began when a woman reported in March 2005 that her stepdaughter who was in high school at the time said she received $300 in exchange for “sexual activity with a man in Palm Beach,” Recarey testified. Another teenager, whose name was redacted in the transcript, told detectives that she was 17 years old when she was approached by a friend who said she could make $200 by providing a massage at Epstein’s home. At the house, when Epstein tried touching her, she told him she was uncomfortable. He then told her that he would pay her $200 if she brought “girls” to the house. “And he told her, ‘The younger, the better,’” Recarey said. Over time she brought six friends to Epstein’s house, including a 14-year-old, and likened herself to Hollywood Madame Heidi Fleiss in October 2005 interviews, Recarey recounted. When she brought over a 23-year-old friend, Epstein told her that the friend was too old. “The more you did, the more money you made,” the detective said the teen told him. “She explained that there was going to be a massage or some possible touching, and you would have to provide the massage either topless or naked.” Another teen testified she visited Epstein’s house hundreds of times in the early 2000s, starting when she was 16. She testified that Epstein paid her $200 each time she gave him a massage while naked, rented her a car and gave her $1,000 the time he raped her. A 2005 police search of Epstein’s mansion found evidence supporting the girls’ testimony. Also, Epstein’s houseman told detectives that the teenagers who came to the mansion were “very young. Too young to be a masseuse.” Epstein in 2018 was charged with federal sex trafficking crimes in New York — where he also had a mansion that was a scene of abuse — after the Miami Herald published a series of articles that renewed public attention on the case, including interviews with some victims who had been pursuing civil lawsuits against him. Epstein was 66 when he killed himself in a New York City jail cell in August 2019, federal officials say. Delgado in his order wrote that the transcripts show why Epstein was “the most infamous pedophile in American history.” “For almost 20 years, the story of how Jeffrey Epstein victimized some of Palm Beach County’s most vulnerable has been the subject of much anger and has at times diminished the public’s perception of the criminal justice system,” Delgado wrote. ___ TERRY SPENCER I cover Florida, primarily Broward and Palm Beach counties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 6 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: I just gave it more thought. I remember reading a book a while back that argued that it was too simplistic to say that either country was far left or far right. I do remember learning in University that the Nazi's considered themselves far left, but they also considered themselves a master race, so it really doesn't matter what they think. I Googled a chapter of a different book than the one that I read that similarly argues it is too simple to say either fascism or nazi'ism is far left/right. Here's a link to a chapter of it. https://osf.io/j3pru/download The only people who I've heard describe the nazis as far left are people on the far right who didn't want anyone drawing comparisons. The Nazis were most assuredly far right as it was a direct affront to the communists and socialists which were on the rise before Hitler's ascension. Hitler needed the support of the former Weimar elites and they saw the far left as a bigger threat to their existence. Hitler knew he couldn't win an election without them, in fact he never actually won anything, but he forced Hindenburg's hand. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Timely , Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: Hitler actually couldn't stand Mussolini. He just needed allies so he put up with him. Note the similarities in what you said between Evangelicals and Trump. Edited July 28 by nuckin_futz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 1 minute ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said: The only people who I've heard describe the nazis as far left are people on the far right who didn't want anyone drawing comparisons. The Nazis were most assuredly far right as it was a direct affront to the communists and socialists which were on the rise before Hitler's ascension. Hitler needed the support of the former Weimar elites and they saw the far left as a bigger threat to their existence. Hitler knew he couldn't win an election without them, in fact he never actually won anything, but he forced Hindenburg's hand. It's been too long since I've delved into the minutia of the Nazis or the Italian fascists. I wish I could intelligently discuss this with you but as my cross-outs on 3 posts show, I'm now lacking in the finer details anymore. I'm posting and then my brain's inner monologue is screaming back at me a minute later. It's kinda weird... lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 2 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said: Note the similarities in what you said between Evangelicals and Trump. The evangelicals latched onto the Republican party waaay before Trump. They wanted to bring religion into politics and succeeded. Trump is just pandering to them like most Republicans before him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Pathetic , less than human, delinquent, uneducated , sorry excuse of a Man . He festers , trying to take down an entire country , thinking it will keep him out of jail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Hitler- formed an alliance with Italy and Japan. Hitler- espoused the myth of blonde, blue eyed, Aryan superiority Bet there weren't too many of them in Italy and Japan. Hitler was a dark haired Austrian. Weird, isn't it? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Just now, Gurn said: Hitler- formed an alliance with Italy and Japan. Hitler- espoused the myth of blonde, blue eyed, Aryan superiority Bet there weren't too many of them in Italy and Japan. Hitler was a dark haired Austrian. Weird, isn't it? That has always amused me, especially the last one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6of1_halfdozenofother Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Just now, Gurn said: Hitler- formed an alliance with Italy and Japan. Hitler- espoused the myth of blonde, blue eyed, Aryan superiority Bet there weren't too many of them in Italy and Japan. Hitler was a dark haired Austrian. Weird, isn't it? And given that he had Jewish heritage, he also sought to exterminate the Jews. Yes, it's beyond weird. I wonder how long it had been since he last looked at a mirror before he died? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 3 hours ago, Sabrefan1 said: I just think it's as*holes being as*holes. It's why I don't like the far right or the far left. Both badly want to control what people say, do, and think. Our society has become an Orwellian nightmare. We use to have left leaning , right leaning and to the outer limits extremes on both sides. unfortunately the conservatives and republicans have sold that anyone and anything not supporting them is woke and extreme left wing. By design they sought to demonizes all views not in line with theirs as radical extremism Most of what isn’t a conservative voice isn’t far left …. All of what you hear from the leadership and the very vocal supporters of the conservatives is far right ….. I just wish the majority of the conservatives who are just normal regular right leaning. And also have no love of the extremes would clean their house up 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 44 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: He joined a major party and played the members of the party like a violin. He realized that he could manipulate one party much easier than the other for various reasons. Ok the party, but can't the voters see him for what he is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 7 minutes ago, Gurn said: Hitler- formed an alliance with Italy and Japan. Hitler- espoused the myth of blonde, blue eyed, Aryan superiority Bet there weren't too many of them in Italy and Japan. Hitler was a dark haired Austrian. Weird, isn't it? His right hand man, until he wasn't, and the leader of the SA, was gay and everybody knew it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sapper said: We use to have left leaning , right leaning and to the outer limits extremes on both sides. unfortunately the conservatives and republicans have sold that anyone and anything not supporting them is woke and extreme left wing. By design they sought to demonizes all views not in line with theirs as radical extremism Most of what isn’t a conservative voice isn’t far left …. All of what you hear from the leadership and the very vocal supporters of the conservatives is far right ….. I just wish the majority of the conservatives who are just normal regular right leaning. And also have no love of the extremes would clean their house up Yeah, when believing in anthropogenic Climate Change and that rich people should pay their fair share of taxes makes one a "far left extremist", the phrase has lost all meaning.... Edited July 28 by RupertKBD 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrefan1 Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Just now, Bob Long said: Ok the party, but can't the voters see him for what he is? Which voters? MAGA or the regular Republicans? MAGA is MAGA. Regular Republicans don't want the Democrats in power. Honestly, I'm much more worried about Congress than I am Trump. Congressional Republicans are going to raise the minimum retirement age citing the state of Social Security's finances, then they will turn right around afterwards and use the money that saves to give giant tax cuts to their donors. The only thing that could have the chance of stopping it would be a Democratic filibuster, but since they know the Democrats are going to kill the filibuster the first chance they get, the Republicans may just beat them to it in order to kneecap the retirement age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 10 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said: The evangelicals latched onto the Republican party waaay before Trump. They wanted to bring religion into politics and succeeded. Trump is just pandering to them like most Republicans before him. Yes but Trump took it to a way new level. Basically making them choose between their love of Jesus and Judas Iscariot. They chose the 30 pieces of silver. And why? Because they're all a bunch of phonies who just crave power and want to subjugate people to their will. 60+% of the population wants abortion to be legal. They do not and do not care about the will of the people or democracy. They want what they want and are willing to sell out their ideals (Jesus) to get it. Because they never really believed in anything to begin with, they just want power. Rather un-Jesuslike behaviour if you ask me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 (edited) Shapiro is on fire too ! Perhaps the rally call shouldn’t be “lock him up”, maybe it should be: “fuck him up” If trump debates , It going to feel like a hockey game ! Lol Edited July 28 by SilentSam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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