US Politics Thread

[Smashian Kassian]

 

On 8/21/2024 at 11:17 AM, 24K said:

Sorry, I don't see the difference. Biden was declining rapidly that he couldn't get Dems across the finish line. Cause and effect. Doesn't contradict anything here. 

 

The distinction is the party losing power was the concern, not Biden's ability to govern the country well or not. Which obviously hints at other questions but alas.

 

On 8/21/2024 at 11:17 AM, 24K said:

 

His state of the union performance played a large part to why the Dem didn't push him out sooner. Had he fumbled during that, there would be a push. Truth of the matter is Biden did not publicly display any serious decline till the debate.

 

As a party you can't force out an incumbent when he or she does not publicly cause issues or rapid decline. That would resonate more with voters of some sort of Dem push out if Biden coming off of his state ifntrb union address compared to doing so after a disastorous debate. That would be political suicide. 

 

This is the thing though. The people behind the scenes - including those who eventually pushed him out - had a far better understanding of Biden's state the entire time than what was presented to the public. What we saw was a fraction of the picture, and in key speeches was likely aided by drugs. They knew what was going on better than anyone.

 

But I think in your last points we come to an agreement, though this exposes the lie of democracy that this thing operates in the idealist sense. Basically; this saga wasn't about 'doing the right thing' in a moral context, it was about power - which is understandable, & certainly the Republicans would've done the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

On 8/21/2024 at 11:17 AM, 24K said:

 

It has 0 effect in the overall picture cause unlike you or me that are political nerds, your normie voters don't pay that much attention. You think people are glued to c-span watching Biden go up to air force one. Don't bring up Twitter cause that is also not where most people actually spend their time. 

 

Also so far I have yet to see any Dem or even many independents bringing up aboutblosing trust of the Dems over this. It is only brought up by right wing media and maga followers on social media. 

 

If you see otherwise, please bring up examples. 

 

This brings up an interesting question central to this issue of 'normies'. Where do you think the majority get their 'news' or impressions of whats going on from?

 

My guess would be social media and the demographics will shift it further that direction over time. (Not just twitter to be clear, your right about it being a place for glued-in political types, most people I know in real life all use Instagram but I never see any on Twitter).

 

Unless maybe they tune out entirely till election season? But I don't know that everything could be avoidable with the internet...

 

What do you think? 

 

On 8/21/2024 at 11:17 AM, 24K said:

 

When I say right wing is because your framing and argument comes directly from Trump's camp or right wing media. It has nothing to do with labeling or dismissing anything. I say that directly about Dem damaging trust and how Harris "pulled out of debates" because that is literally only brought up by the right. You don't see me labelling average families economic concerns as some sort of right framing cause that is coming out across the paradigm. 

 

That is true for both side. You also have people from the GOP that are disenchanted by the GOP by their Trumpian politics. RFK Jr high level of support was due to double haters. If you want to say RFK losing stem independent of Harris then we just have to agree to disagree. His bear and brainworm story certainly didn't help. 

 

I don't know how the Dems couldn't have damaged trust though (and in politics as a whole), we talked about Biden already but they basically demonstrated that the president isn't the most powerful force in the country while simultaneously claiming to defend 'democracy' in the idealistic sense....

 

And I don't think me saying that is just 'right-wing' drivel unless 'right-wing' means everyone who isn't voting Democrat. Because I don't think it exposes the Dem party alone but also the issues with the whole thing (which maybe we already know, but its another clear example). And nor do I think the GOP wouldn't act similarly. 

 

Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree here too, that's fine. 

 

On RFK; I agree that he pulled from GOP/Trump too. And yes we can agree to disagree. 

 

On 8/21/2024 at 11:17 AM, 24K said:

 

No one is saying it is a slam dunk or landslide if being serious. She has momentum right now that gives her more room of error compared to Trump but things can derail. If Iran drags Israel and US into a war then fortunes can change overnight. 

 

I wonder how much that Isreal/Palestine conflict is going to be a tightrope for her to walk, there's alot of leftists not happy with her over it thus-far, but then again Trump has established himself as the clearly pro-Isreal so maybe she has plenty of space there.

 

But coming out of the convention she certainly has momentum as she should, I agree. 

[24K]

15 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

YOur own article indicates that the moderates do in fact like her and that those who did vote for trump previously are hesitant to do so again.

 

You keep saying Vibes but that isn't the case.  Voter apathy and voter disgust are real.

 

While she may not be speaking of her platform it will be released.  It will be weighed against Trumps and project 2025.  More importantly, as the election draws closer, Trump will get more crazy and more desperate.  This will continue to push moderates away.  

 

You're opinion is that Harris needs to cement these votes.  but the truth is, the moderates have always been an ebb and flow vote.  Harris only needs to let things play out in this manner until the vote and they'll watch Trump sink himself.

 

Look no further than Canada.  Pierre has absolutely zero platform, Rustad as well.  But both potential leaders have just one consistent message and respond to questions or accusations in a very simple manner.  it is swaying people towards them as much as a sound and precise platform ever could.  because voter apathy and disgust are real.

 

Whatever the case, we'll see in the next few months

There is a difference between someone disgusted by Trump and liking Harris than someone sold on her ideas and policies that are enthusiastic about voting for her. 

 

The former likely won't bother to vote while the latter drags their neighbor to the polls. 

 

Sorry but I still call it vibes cause what you have described is literally vibes. 

 

Now vibes can win you an election if it hit at the right time. It may work out for the Dems seeing the short runway but it is a gamble that it will last till November. 

 

You brought up PP, yes he is running on an anti Trudeau vibe with zero policy whatsoever. If election was today he will win in a landslide, but vibes can die down and you are already starting to see it crumble with him overplaying it. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

The distinction is the party losing power was the concern, not Biden's ability to govern the country well or not. Which obviously hints at other questions but alas.

 

 

This is the thing though. The people behind the scenes - including those who eventually pushed him out - had a far better understanding of Biden's state the entire time than what was presented to the public. What we saw was a fraction of the picture, and in key speeches was likely aided by drugs. They knew what was going on better than anyone.

 

But I think in your last points we come to an agreement, though this exposes the lie of democracy that this thing operates in the idealist sense. Basically; this saga wasn't about 'doing the right thing' in a moral context, it was about power - which is understandable, & certainly the Republicans would've done the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

 

This brings up an interesting question central to this issue of 'normies'. Where do you think the majority get their 'news' or impressions of whats going on from?

 

My guess would be social media and the demographics will shift it further that direction over time. (Not just twitter to be clear, your right about it being a place for glued-in political types, most people I know in real life all use Instagram but I never see any on Twitter).

 

Unless maybe they tune out entirely till election season? But I don't know that everything could be avoidable with the internet...

 

What do you think? 

 

 

I don't know how the Dems couldn't have damaged trust though (and in politics as a whole), we talked about Biden already but they basically demonstrated that the president isn't the most powerful force in the country while simultaneously claiming to defend 'democracy' in the idealistic sense....

 

 

you say "pushed him out" but tbh it looks to me like he made the decision ultimately on his own. It took some convincing but I think Joe saw the writing on the wall. 

 

 

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

And I don't think me saying that is just 'right-wing' drivel unless 'right-wing' means everyone who isn't voting Democrat. Because I don't think it exposes the Dem party alone but also the issues with the whole thing (which maybe we already know, but its another clear example). And nor do I think the GOP wouldn't act similarly. 

 

Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree here too, that's fine. 

 

On RFK; I agree that he pulled from GOP/Trump too. And yes we can agree to disagree. 

 

RKF is a kooky dude. He's a wildcard that could easily hurt trump.

 

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

 

I wonder how much that Isreal/Palestine conflict is going to be a tightrope for her to walk, there's alot of leftists not happy with her over it thus-far, but then again Trump has established himself as the clearly pro-Isreal so maybe she has plenty of space there.

 

But coming out of the convention she certainly has momentum as she should, I agree. 

 

anyone that takes a breather for a moment can see that Trump is by far the worst choice if Palestine is a key issue for you. 

 

[SilentSam]

 

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, 24K said:

There is a difference between someone disgusted by Trump and liking Harris than someone sold on her ideas and policies that are enthusiastic about voting for her. 

 

The former likely won't bother to vote while the latter drags their neighbor to the polls. 

 

Sorry but I still call it vibes cause what you have described is literally vibes. 

 

Now vibes can win you an election if it hit at the right time. It may work out for the Dems seeing the short runway but it is a gamble that it will last till November. 

 

You brought up PP, yes he is running on an anti Trudeau vibe with zero policy whatsoever. If election was today he will win in a landslide, but vibes can die down and you are already starting to see it crumble with him overplaying it. 

Fear

Emotion

Apathy

 

These are critical.

[Smashian Kassian]

On 8/21/2024 at 1:37 PM, kilgore said:

 

I know 24k has already responded to this but geez....

I find this is one of the more confusing RW attacks used by MAGA. 

You have a very loose definition of "brazen lying".  You may be absolutely correct in your statement "if they could've dragged Biden's corpse across the finish line again they absolutely would have.".  But that isn't the same thing as keeping some truth (about Biden's decline) secret.  The evidence was more and more frequently coming out, live, on camera, for all to see. 

 

But if Joe Biden, who was a representative working in Washington for 50 years, and tried many times to run to be the nominee and failed, then got a taste of the White House, so close to what he had wanted, for eight long years. And then finally getting his shot at POTUS.  Can you blame him for not wanting to give it up? Can you imagine the shit show and division in Democrat delegates if top Democrats had actually forced him out a year ago against his will? Especially after his clear and effective State of the Union address? Why do you even think this could be possible?  But R's are desperate for any talking point attack, no matter how dumb.

 

Trump was also showing cognitive decline. shuffling meekly down a ramp being helped by a military officer.  Drinking a glass of water having to hold it with two hands. And his ever increasing slurs and mispronouncements and gibberish in his speeches.  Can you imagine the MAGA base if Trump was forced out of consideration as  their nominee a year ago, by top brass Republicans?  Of course not. 

 

The Democrats are not in a cult like R's so its a different situation.  I only bring it up to make a point. That no leader, especially one already elected to a first term, by 8 million votes, to the position of the most powerful person on the planet, would be easily swayed to step down......just because advisors are telling you that in a year's time, you will decline so badly that you will be unelectable.  Not gonna happen.

 

No, Democrats did it the right way, allowing Joe to make the final decision. Apparently Harris, smartly, ran as far away as possible from being a part of that D group that was urging Joe to step down. Even if, leaving it up to him, it seemed his bowing out was done too late when it happened.  Which is why R's were openly rooting for him to step down as well. They were picturing some last minute  contentious primary from D's where CNN etc would be highlighting the divisiveness between the candidates. How D's are in 'disarray' going into November. Which is what Democrats were also fearful  of. I was as well. Which is why "if they could've dragged Biden's corpse across the finish line again they absolutely would have.".

 

It was a bit of sheer good luck for D's that Harris turned out to be so attractive and charismatic once she was given the spotlight.  I highly doubt she'd have been picked in that rushed primary. D's are notoriously conservative and spineless when it comes to going out of the box from establishment corporate owned wealthier Democrats who know hos to play the game.

 

I don't blame Joe Biden at all, not for a single second. But the 25th amendment does exist for a reason.

 

If people care about idealistic democracy (as they claim), and the democrats are positioning themselves as the party of idealistic democracy, then wouldn't people want the democratic processes to play out as they should rather than covert political power struggle? Seems like people love idealistic democracy (on both sides) until they don't I guess. 

 

As far as Trump, if he was forced out of the nomination I think he could've gone independent & been fine. I think many Republicians behind the scenes would've loved Trump out this past cycle but he's too popular for them to do that from a strategic standpoint.

 

The Democrats did it the right way for their own purposes, I agree.

[24K]

6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Fear

Emotion

Apathy

 

These are critical.

I agree. I have said before and still maintain no one wins an election on detailed policy. But policy is the foundation and sets the floor for all those other things.

 

Fear, Emotion, Apathy, essentially vibes can ebb and flow but good policy will be the baseline. Hanging onto those things without solid policy will result in a free fall as we are now seeing with Trump. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Unmarried because most unmarried men are Republicans 

 

[Smashian Kassian]

 

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

you say "pushed him out" but tbh it looks to me like he made the decision ultimately on his own. It took some convincing but I think Joe saw the writing on the wall. 

 

RKF is a kooky dude. He's a wildcard that could easily hurt trump.

 

anyone that takes a breather for a moment can see that Trump is by far the worst choice if Palestine is a key issue for you. 

 

 

Biden had made it clear repeatedly he wasn't dropping, IIRC one of his aids was on a corporate news networks earlier that day saying he wasn't dropping. So they clearly pushed him. Whether it just took continual convincing we don't know (its certainly possible), but I personally think they would've legit forced him out if thats what it took.

 

Going to be interesting to see what happens with RFK, seems like he is on the verge of joining Trump which is probably best for both camps though I'm sure many in RFK's base won't vote Trump.

 

And I agree with your last point completely. It just seems to me like for some progressives this might be a dealbreaker type issue. It'll be interesting to see this play out. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

Biden had made it clear repeatedly he wasn't dropping, IIRC one of his aids was on a corporate news networks earlier that day saying he wasn't dropping. So they clearly pushed him. Whether it just took continual convincing we don't know (its certainly possible), but I personally think they would've legit forced him out if thats what it took.

 

there's no mechanism other than the 25th amendment tho to actually push him out. He just came to his senses. It's sad to see him age out like this, but otoh US politics is in desperate need of new people. 

 

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Going to be interesting to see what happens with RFK, seems like he is on the verge of joining Trump which is probably best for both camps though I'm sure many in RFK's base won't vote Trump.

 

its risky I think, it could turn off many moderates who are just barley leaning trump too. Really hard to say. 

 

What role is being promised to Roadkill Jr? thats a pretty vital piece of info that could hurt trump. 

 

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

And I agree with your last point completely. It just seems to me like for some progressives this might be a dealbreaker type issue. It'll be interesting to see this play out. 

 

Could be. I used to consider myself fairly progressive, but I don't identify with the term anymore so I don't really follow those camps very closely. 

 

[Smashian Kassian]

So I watched Kamala's speech... I thought it was overall pretty generic, but certainly red meat for her base & I'm sure felt to them like a fantastic performance as opposed to what they had been getting from Biden.  

 

I thought the beginning was very strong, the montage & the opening of her family.. though whether her parents were actually working class.. A scientist & Yale professor.. Idk, but good story regardless. Very relatable (which Trump certainly is not) and that resonates with people. So that was very good. 

 

I thought the attacks on Trump were... I guess effective. Painting Trump has been the central strategy for both Biden & now Harris, this was more of the same.

 

The both sides-ing the Isreal/Palestine thing I saw got some real negative reaction among progressives, but the obvious response is her opponent would be even worse on this issue in those eyes, so she has room. I think this will be an interesting one to follow.

 

No real policy stuff. Mostly pomp & circumstance. Even despite the hoopla over the 'price controls' I don't think Kamala is an ideologue at all, and I'd think that will be walked back at some point actually. 

 

But anyways, coming out of it she looks strong & the base is invigorated. Now things will start to ramp up.

[Smashian Kassian]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

there's no mechanism other than the 25th amendment tho to actually push him out. He just came to his senses. It's sad to see him age out like this, but otoh US politics is in desperate need of new people. 

 

 

its risky I think, it could turn off many moderates who are just barley leaning trump too. Really hard to say. 

 

What role is being promised to Roadkill Jr? thats a pretty vital piece of info that could hurt trump. 

 

 

Could be. I used to consider myself fairly progressive, but I don't identify with the term anymore so I don't really follow those camps very closely. 

 

 

Yes that for sure. I also think there seems to be substance around Hunter Biden's dealings & how Joe could've been implicated that things really could've gotten nasty if it had to come to that (we've already seen a few stories trickle out post-Joe stepping down). I don't really care to argue about it right now though so we can agree to disagree. 

 

Not sure what the exact role is, rumour was maybe head/control of the CIA (from a curiosity standpoint I'd love to see what would come of that tbh). But I don't think its been established. Or that the agreement is even across the finish line.

 

And year the terms/paradigm has definitely shifted. 

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Yes that for sure. I also think there seems to be substance around Hunter Biden's dealings & how Joe could've been implicated that things really could've gotten nasty if it had to come to that (we've already seen a few stories trickle out post-Joe stepping down). I don't really care to argue about it right now though so we can agree to disagree. 

 

one thing that did come to my mind was Biden can now pardon his son, with no consequences for the election. No one can stop him and it's not Kamala's fault if he does. I'm sure GOP would freak out, but I doubt it would shift any votes. 

 

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

Not sure what the exact role is, rumour was maybe head/control of the CIA (from a curiosity standpoint I'd love to see what would come of that tbh). But I don't think its been established. Or that the agreement is even across the finish line.

 

I think thats the kind of decision that would definitely freak out the moderates. 

 

Just now, Smashian Kassian said:

And year the terms/paradigm has definitely shifted. 

 

 

[Warhippy]

29 minutes ago, 24K said:

I agree. I have said before and still maintain no one wins an election on detailed policy. But policy is the foundation and sets the floor for all those other things.

 

Fear, Emotion, Apathy, essentially vibes can ebb and flow but good policy will be the baseline. Hanging onto those things without solid policy will result in a free fall as we are now seeing with Trump. 

Trump created this climate.

 

Policy means absolutely nothing.

 

This, much like 2020 and 2016 are campaigns of personality 

 

The issue for Trump is that his is now too repugnant to get behind.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Trump created this climate.

 

Policy means absolutely nothing.

 

This, much like 2020 and 2016 are campaigns of personality 

 

The issue for Trump is that his is now too repugnant to get behind.

 

dem's are always, always, held to a higher standard on policy tho. Conservatives still get the benefit of the doubt on the economy and the military, even though facts prove out otherwise. 

 

[Curmudgeon]

27 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Biden had made it clear repeatedly he wasn't dropping, IIRC one of his aids was on a corporate news networks earlier that day saying he wasn't dropping. So they clearly pushed him. Whether it just took continual convincing we don't know (its certainly possible), but I personally think they would've legit forced him out if thats what it took.

 

Quick question: Why are you so insistent that Biden was forced out? What's in it for you? The man has said repeatedly that it was his decision. He's been in politics over 50 years and can certainly see and interpret the political signs. He saw the path to re-election was rapidly closing and rather than drag the party down with him, he did a noble thing: he stepped aside to help the Democrats salvage the presidency AND to prevent that idiot from becoming president again. Why is that hard for you to grasp?

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

7 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Why is that hard for you to grasp?

 

Because it doesn't fit the framework of the narrative that the further right-wing wants us to believe.

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Because it doesn't fit the framework of the narrative that the further right-wing wants us to believe.

I'm not sure it's being driven by an ultra right wing ideology.   I blame Instagram.

[the destroyer of worlds]

Final night figures yet to come. 

 

I also like how Harris/Walz packed the arena that hosted the RNC in the middle of their own convention.  

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dnc-ratings-rnc-kamala-harris-donald-trump-b2600749.html

 

DNC ratings smash RNC figures for third night in a row

 

Nearly 20.2 million viewers tuned in on the third night of the DNC to watch Oprah Winfrey, former president Bill Clinton and Kamala Harris’s running mate Tim Walz

[the destroyer of worlds]

Just now, Satchmo said:

I'm not sure it's being driven by an ultra right wing ideology.   I blame Instagram.

Or it's TRUMP going on and on about how "they" stole Biden's presidency.  It was a coup.  <---  (I think TRUMP only just learned what coup means and is trying to apply the new found knowledge.)

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I'm not sure it's being driven by an ultra right wing ideology.   I blame Instagram.

 

I used the term "further right-wing" not to mean ultra right-wing, but only because from a Canadian perspective, the Democrats are to generally to the right of our politics, while the Republicans are "further-right" to the Democrats.  

[Satchmo]

Surprise!

 

RFK Jr. suspends campaign and supports Trump

 

Following his endorsement of the former president today, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. will campaign with and for Donald Trump, a source familiar with the matter tells CNN.

Allies of both RFK Jr. and Trump have encouraged Kennedy to promote the former president on various platforms, including Tucker Carlson’s show and Joe Rogan’s podcast, with the hope that Kennedy can convince some of his staunchest supporters to back Trump in the election. 

 

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said former President Donald Trump asked to “enlist him in his administration” during his news conference in Phoenix on Friday. 

Kennedy said the offer came in two meetings with Trump, first in the days after the assassination attempt on Trump in July, and a second meeting weeks later.

“In those meetings, he suggested that we join forces as a unity party. We talked about Abraham Lincoln’s team of rivals, that arrangement would allow us to disagree publicly and privately and furiously, if need be, on issues over which we differ, while working together on the existential issues upon which we are in concordance,” he said.

[coho8888]

1 hour ago, 24K said:

There is a difference between someone disgusted by Trump and liking Harris than someone sold on her ideas and policies that are enthusiastic about voting for her. 

 

The former likely won't bother to vote while the latter drags their neighbor to the polls. 

 

Sorry but I still call it vibes cause what you have described is literally vibes. 

 

Now vibes can win you an election if it hit at the right time. It may work out for the Dems seeing the short runway but it is a gamble that it will last till November. 

 

You brought up PP, yes he is running on an anti Trudeau vibe with zero policy whatsoever. If election was today he will win in a landslide, but vibes can die down and you are already starting to see it crumble with him overplaying it. 

 

if this was a normal election, then yes policy talk is important.  But this is far from a normal election.  Repugs are very loyal to their party.  They would rather hold their nose and vote Trump even though they hate who he is and what he has done.  Bringing on lifelong republicans that have turned against Trump was a calculated strategy.  They are sending a message that you are not voting for democrats but are voting for democracy.  These republicans are sending the message that you are not betraying your party by voting Harris.  Stawns makes a good point in that policy talk is better in the upcoming debates because Maga will be exposed.

[24K]

37 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Trump created this climate.

 

Policy means absolutely nothing.

 

This, much like 2020 and 2016 are campaigns of personality 

 

The issue for Trump is that his is now too repugnant to get behind.

Why is it fine to run towards that climate rather than pulling it back to where we want it to be? All we are doing is normalizing it. 

 

That is what is frustrating me right now. People always run toward the right trying to appease the right while the right keep on running further right to distinguish themselves. That is how US overtone have shifted so much to the right. 

Edited August 23 by 24K

[coho8888]

14 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Final night figures yet to come. 

 

I also like how Harris/Walz packed the arena that hosted the RNC in the middle of their own convention.  

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dnc-ratings-rnc-kamala-harris-donald-trump-b2600749.html

 

DNC ratings smash RNC figures for third night in a row

 

Nearly 20.2 million viewers tuned in on the third night of the DNC to watch Oprah Winfrey, former president Bill Clinton and Kamala Harris’s running mate Tim Walz

I guess WWE and red neck rock aren’t a thing anymore?