[Speculation] Lindholm apparently rejects Canucks offer of 7x7 extension

[Rekker]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Our 5 man core is - Miller, Brock, Petey, Hughes, Demko

Our 7 man core would ideally be - Miller, Brock, Petey, Lindholm, Hughes, Hronek, Demko

I want Zads in the core five or six. He's that important imho.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

People always talk about 5 or 7 man cores winning cups.

 

Our 5 man core is - Miller, Brock, Petey, Hughes, Demko

Our 7 man core would ideally be - Miller, Brock, Petey, Lindholm, Hughes, Hronek, Demko

 

That 5 man core isn't great enough to get it done by itself. When you look back at those elite Pittsburgh or Chicago teams, their top-5 were better than everyone else's top-5. We don't quite have that. That top-7 though can go head-to-head with any other 7 and beat them.

Look at the current SCF finalists. Edmonton have a supreme top-5 but not much more after that (McDavid, Draisaitl, Hyman, Bouchard, RNH). Florida have more of a top-7 because their top guys are nowhere near as good as McDavid/Draisaitl, but they have better depth in their top core unit.

 

Hughes might be the best defenceman in the league but he was average in the playoffs, and Demko may be the best goalie in the league, but was absent too. Our forwards are good but nowhere near elite level and I can't imagine Petey ever being on McDavid or MacKinnon's level, which is why we need to focus on fleshing out that core a bit.

CHI had a lot more than just 5 guys.   Their secondary and tertiary guys were all very good, and each time they won a cup, they lost them and had to change a little.   Hossa was arguably their best player after Kane.   Byfuglien.   Yikes.   Sharp.   Keith.   For sure more than just five guys.   Crawford was their least core guy and he wasn't too shabby at all, and for sure to them, was considered core.   Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, upfront, Keith and Seabrook (and they had more on the D but will stop there), Crawford is 7.      St. Louis had nobody special, not really, just a lot of good players, no elite ones.    As for CHI, you could do the same thing with LA.   Find 7 guys. 
 

As for PIT.   They are a good case study to what elite of the elite can do.   Their first cup back to back cup, no Letang (injured).  Shultz was their back up guy and MAF lost the net to Murray (did win some games the second run but again when Murray was back they went back to Murray) so really it was Crosby/Malkin and Kessel, and well an average defense and that's kind of generous.   Cole wasn't ever a top tier second pairing guy.   Doumelin or what's his name, barely registered before their runs.   Orlov comp maybe.    They had no big names on the back end.    Hagelin Bonino Kessel was their secret weapon.    Crosby played with gulp Rust and made his career.   Geuntzal was barely anyone at the time too.   He's obviously something now, but back then was just a guy playing with Crosby and getting his points.   So in hindsight, they had 4 core guys one cup, five the second.   That's it.    As for their first cup, that team was loaded with veterans, IMO better then both their back to back years, just lost once to DET, and no Kessel. 
 

FLD has Barkov >> then O'Reilly in St. Louis, MT is for sure an elite winger, Rhino just scored 56 or something, another elite winger,  Bennet, Verheaghe  and Bobrovsky a bit of a wild card (has won a couple Vezina's though)  Forsling and Ekblad.    Guess those are their 7th (8) best guys.   Thing is, no state tax so they can have a bit more like TB.   TB for sure, was like CHI was, loaded.   Last five finalists in the East, no state tax teams, go figure TB TB TB FLD FLD. 

 

Point is, for sure we can have 7 guys.  CHI did.  LA did.    Only team that won more then one, is PIT.   And well Crosby/Malkin.   EDM could be the next for sure, and Ekholm is part of that, and pretty sure Hyman on most teams, isn't a core player.    Just gets a boost. 

Edited June 8 by IBatch

[spook007]

14 hours ago, Rekker said:

I'd take Lindholm all day, every day. Center depth is everything. 

Me too...

[spook007]

14 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if management tries to sign Lindholm and still get an impact winger.

 

Rumour has it they’re trying to move more than one contract. Wouldn’t surprise me if Mikheyev is moved along with Garland.

Said that all along...

[Provost]

If Lindholm doesn't want to sign for $7 million fair play to him... trade his rights for a 3rd round pick so an interested team is able to add that 8th year as a sweetener and to bring the cap hit down.

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Provost said:

If Lindholm doesn't want to sign for $7 million fair play to him... trade his rights for a 3rd round pick so an interested team is able to add that 8th year as a sweetener and to bring the cap hit down.

Is the 8th still available for guys traded now? 

[Junkyard Dog]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is the 8th still available for guys traded now? 

He meant a sign and trade

[Provost]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is the 8th still available for guys traded now? 

You do a sign and trade where the extension is in place.  Technically the player needs to be on your reserve list at the trade deadline to be able to give the 8th year.
 

[HKSR]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

People always talk about 5 or 7 man cores winning cups.

 

Our 5 man core is - Miller, Brock, Petey, Hughes, Demko

Our 7 man core would ideally be - Miller, Brock, Petey, Lindholm, Hughes, Hronek, Demko

 

That 5 man core isn't great enough to get it done by itself. When you look back at those elite Pittsburgh or Chicago teams, their top-5 were better than everyone else's top-5. We don't quite have that. That top-7 though can go head-to-head with any other 7 and beat them.

Look at the current SCF finalists. Edmonton have a supreme top-5 but not much more after that (McDavid, Draisaitl, Hyman, Bouchard, RNH). Florida have more of a top-7 because their top guys are nowhere near as good as McDavid/Draisaitl, but they have better depth in their top core unit.

 

Hughes might be the best defenceman in the league but he was average in the playoffs, and Demko may be the best goalie in the league, but was absent too. Our forwards are good but nowhere near elite level and I can't imagine Petey ever being on McDavid or MacKinnon's level, which is why we need to focus on fleshing out that core a bit.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

CHI had a lot more than just 5 guys.   Their secondary and tertiary guys were all very good, and each time they won a cup, they lost them and had to change a little.   Hossa was arguably their best player after Kane.   Byfuglien.   Yikes.   Sharp.   Keith.   For sure more than just five guys.   Crawford was their least core guy and he wasn't too shabby at all, and for sure to them, was considered core.   Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, upfront, Keith and Seabrook (and they had more on the D but will stop there), Crawford is 7.      St. Louis had nobody special, not really, just a lot of good players, no elite ones.    As for CHI, you could do the same thing with LA.   Find 7 guys. 
 

As for PIT.   They are a good case study to what elite of the elite can do.   Their first cup back to back cup, no Letang (injured).  Shultz was their back up guy and MAF lost the net to Murray (did win some games the second run but again when Murray was back they went back to Murray) so really it was Crosby/Malkin and Kessel, and well an average defense and that's kind of generous.   Cole wasn't ever a top tier second pairing guy.   Doumelin or what's his name, barely registered before their runs.   Orlov comp maybe.    They had no big names on the back end.    Hagelin Bonino Kessel was their secret weapon.    Crosby played with gulp Rust and made his career.   Geuntzal was barely anyone at the time too.   He's obviously something now, but back then was just a guy playing with Crosby and getting his points.   So in hindsight, they had 4 core guys one cup, five the second.   That's it.    As for their first cup, that team was loaded with veterans, IMO better then both their back to back years, just lost once to DET, and no Kessel. 
 

FLD has Barkov >> then O'Reilly in St. Louis, MT is for sure an elite winger, Rhino just scored 56 or something, another elite winger,  Bennet, Verheaghe  and Bobrovsky a bit of a wild card (has won a couple Vezina's though)  Forsling and Ekblad.    Guess those are their 7th (8) best guys.   Thing is, no state tax so they can have a bit more like TB.   TB for sure, was like CHI was, loaded.   Last five finalists in the East, no state tax teams, go figure TB TB TB FLD FLD. 

 

Point is, for sure we can have 7 guys.  CHI did.  LA did.    Only team that won more then one, is PIT.   And well Crosby/Malkin.   EDM could be the next for sure, and Ekholm is part of that, and pretty sure Hyman on most teams, isn't a core player.    Just gets a boost. 

Probably why PA/JR want to add another top 6 on top of Lindholm.  I'd imagine if we had a core 8 or even 9, we would have a major edge overall.

 

Hate to say it, but if Garland and Mikheyev are both moved out, we could afford another top 6F.  Guentzel is a bit of a stretch, but a Tervainen, Marchessault, Necas, etc would work.  We could afford a $7m to $8m top 6 to add to the core group.

 

Petey, Hughes, Miller, Marchessault, Brock, Lindholm, Hronek, Demko.

[kettlevalley]

Still say Boston signs Lindholm on July 1 to 8m or more by 7 years.  

[Coryberg]

37 minutes ago, Provost said:

If Lindholm doesn't want to sign for $7 million fair play to him... trade his rights for a 3rd round pick so an interested team is able to add that 8th year as a sweetener and to bring the cap hit down.

I would hope that PA would look to trade our other UFAs rights as well if it becomes apparent that their demands are simply too much. Even a 6th or 7th is great if we aren't going to bring them back

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

CHI had a lot more than just 5 guys.   Their secondary and tertiary guys were all very good, and each time they won a cup, they lost them and had to change a little.   Hossa was arguably their best player after Kane.   Byfuglien.   Yikes.   Sharp.   Keith.   For sure more than just five guys.   Crawford was their least core guy and he wasn't too shabby at all, and for sure to them, was considered core.   Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, upfront, Keith and Seabrook (and they had more on the D but will stop there), Crawford is 7.      St. Louis had nobody special, not really, just a lot of good players, no elite ones.    As for CHI, you could do the same thing with LA.   Find 7 guys. 
 

As for PIT.   They are a good case study to what elite of the elite can do.   Their first cup back to back cup, no Letang (injured).  Shultz was their back up guy and MAF lost the net to Murray (did win some games the second run but again when Murray was back they went back to Murray) so really it was Crosby/Malkin and Kessel, and well an average defense and that's kind of generous.   Cole wasn't ever a top tier second pairing guy.   Doumelin or what's his name, barely registered before their runs.   Orlov comp maybe.    They had no big names on the back end.    Hagelin Bonino Kessel was their secret weapon.    Crosby played with gulp Rust and made his career.   Geuntzal was barely anyone at the time too.   He's obviously something now, but back then was just a guy playing with Crosby and getting his points.   So in hindsight, they had 4 core guys one cup, five the second.   That's it.    As for their first cup, that team was loaded with veterans, IMO better then both their back to back years, just lost once to DET, and no Kessel. 
 

FLD has Barkov >> then O'Reilly in St. Louis, MT is for sure an elite winger, Rhino just scored 56 or something, another elite winger,  Bennet, Verheaghe  and Bobrovsky a bit of a wild card (has won a couple Vezina's though)  Forsling and Ekblad.    Guess those are their 7th (8) best guys.   Thing is, no state tax so they can have a bit more like TB.   TB for sure, was like CHI was, loaded.   Last five finalists in the East, no state tax teams, go figure TB TB TB FLD FLD. 

 

Point is, for sure we can have 7 guys.  CHI did.  LA did.    Only team that won more then one, is PIT.   And well Crosby/Malkin.   EDM could be the next for sure, and Ekholm is part of that, and pretty sure Hyman on most teams, isn't a core player.    Just gets a boost. 

I *think* a whole lot of "Hamhuis types".   As you said, nobody special but still *very* solid and deep.  We only had one Hamhuis in 2011; they had a bunch of them.  

Edited June 8 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Rekker]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

If Lindholm doesn't want to sign for $7 million fair play to him... trade his rights for a 3rd round pick so an interested team is able to add that 8th year as a sweetener and to bring the cap hit down.

I wonder if 7x7 was a starting point and the Canucks were willing to go to 6.7x8 or something? Stupid to go 8 but the window is now and who knows where the cap is for years 7 and 8 anyways. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Rekker said:

I want Zads in the core five or six. He's that important imho.

Yep.   He sure is. 

[IBatch]

47 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I *think* a whole lot of "Hamhuis types".   As you said, nobody special but still *very* solid and deep.  We only had one Hamhuis in 2011; they had a bunch of them.  

It takes a village.   Hamhuis type's times 6 doubt that ever wins a cup.   Bieksa was just as important as he was.   As for St. Louis, they had AP, a level up.  Not a big one, but a level up. 

Edited June 8 by IBatch

[spook007]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Team needs some stability for sure.   There is absolutely a tier after core and before support players.   Get support players will always come and go.   They level up or move on.   The tier after that, teams these days, have to add the right ingredients.   The key roles like 3C, top six (not stars) second pairings etc.    Lindholm, and Zadorov fall into that tier.    

 

It's pretty clear who our core is.   They went to the All-star game together, and have played together in hockey years, a long time now.   Brock is the longest serving player.

 

If you watched the Brock/Miller interview, they were both excited for the future.   They know as a group, that their core is just getting started.  Reflected on how "young" their group is, and how far they've come and grown as players as well.   Without saying it, they implied that they will only get better, and that they know who they are and where they are going.    The start of this core's peak, that 26-33 band, JB brought up several times.    WCE and Sedin teams both went through this.   Naslund and the Sedins, didn't start their prime's until 26-27 and had their best years around 29-30.    

 

The D has barely played together aside from Myers and QHs.   One season or less.    It's vital Allvin doesn't let that slip away.   What a difference a year made,  finally assembling a unit without any AHLers.   That's priority one. 

 

Zadorov for me, is the most important UFA, we simply have to sign him.   If Hronek was a UFA, i'd still start with Zadorov.    Why?   Playoffs.   And i'm tired of having a puny defense without any bite to it.    Canucks hockey, for decades, had an identity of warrior, character, big, scary guys.    Finally, we've brought some of those things back.   Skill too, but nothing like we've seen with QHs.    That needs balance, and that's exactly what Zadorov offers.   Wouldn't be at all opposed, to plunking him on QHs R side (like Soucy, he's a switch hitter) for the next 5-6 years.   
 

Hronek is close to a must have too.   We don't need to do him right away though.   He's a late summer thing.   Once the dust settles with free agency. 

 

Lindholm would be a top 6 stabilizer.    Either by playing with EP, or anchoring a line that could be considered a second line.    Highly doubt Lindholm's playing 13-15 minutes a night.   He's getting top six minutes regardless of whom he plays with. 

 

Zadarov and Lindholm would be serious adds to our core/team if we sign them both.    Myers is also a stabilizing force and won't break the bank.   Like to see those 3 back.    As for Hronek, he's coming back too.    Although he might end up getting traded IF we sign a Roy or Pesce to a medium term deal.  

Spot on...

[PeteyBoeser]

Well I’d say that’s a fair deal but he’s wanting money seems like so he can go. His playoff was good but what’s the point if we can’t get there in the first place. His regular season was horrible for us 
 

get Zads for that money 

[spook007]

15 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

it's not whether he can work with EP.. it's whether or not tocchet is willing to play him with EP.. and all evidence points to no.. he rather have 3C even if it means having no one to play with EP.

Its not as if PA and Tocchet don't talk to one another... 

If Tocchet indicated, he wouldn't play Petey with Lindholm, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 
Should be zero chance they offer a 3C 7x7 contract...

Only other way could be re-united the Lotto line and have Lindholm centering the second line in some shape or form. 
But honestly don't see them offering Lindholm 7x7 unless its to play with Petey. 

 

[spook007]

14 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

If we didn't give up so much for him it wouldn't bother me too much if he didn't move on. 

 

 

Edit 

Accidentally hit the post button. 

 

A lot of people are saying this isn't a deep draft.

I have spent days, actually nights, researching this draft for my fantasy teams.

I could name lots of prospects I would have liked to have drafted with that first rounder if we still had it.

 

I get that Kuzmenko had to go, however he sure picked it up in Calgary, 15 points in his last 10 games. 

 

Do we have that conditional 4th or did we have to give it up. 

 

I already have some solid prospects in mind for my fourth rounders.

 

Then there is Brzustewicz.

Many are bagging him out now he is gone however he is a RHD with decent size, that just scored 92 points in 67 games in his draft + 1 year. 

With all the talk about paying Hronek the 8 mill he supposedly wants, and the possibility of trading him, Hunter is looking like a future potential great second pairing RHD-man that could spend time on the second PP unit, if Hronek does go.

Better to have options than not have them.

 

Again all this is based around what you want to give up for a rental, that for sure helped us get to the second round. 

 

And another year not only do we don't have a second round pick,  we don't have a first. 

 

As has been stated many times, players with established contracts, backed up by quality players on ELC's and maybe bridge deals are what I believe are needed to build a cup winner.

 

 

Just the fact he helped the team reach the second round, made it worth while. 
Lets not forget how close we were to sending the Oilers into darkness, and it could have been us preparing to play Panthers in the final.  
It was definitely a gamble worth taking. 
 

Before the season started, we talked about being a wild card to the play offs, and any play offs would be gravy. 
 

These times don't cone around too often, so if management can smell blood, they got to take the chance. 

[RupertKBD]

19 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Such as?

 

Probably someone like Monahan...

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Probably someone like Monahan...

Monahan isn’t defensively sound though. Much better trading for Pageau. He’s a defensive minded right shot centre with two years left.

Garland for Pageau. 

[RupertKBD]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Monahan isn’t defensively sound though. Much better trading for Pageau. He’s a defensive minded right shot centre with two years left.

Garland for Pageau. 

 

Says who?

[wai_lai416]

43 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Its not as if PA and Tocchet don't talk to one another... 

If Tocchet indicated, he wouldn't play Petey with Lindholm, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 
Should be zero chance they offer a 3C 7x7 contract...

Only other way could be re-united the Lotto line and have Lindholm centering the second line in some shape or form. 
But honestly don't see them offering Lindholm 7x7 unless its to play with Petey. 

 

why would it be 0 chance? if horvat would have taken 7x7 last year he would have been 3c lol

[Smashian Kassian]

14 hours ago, DeNiro said:

They’re not looking to trade him but after the season he had he’s one of the more moveable contracts.

 

As we saw in the playoffs this team will not reach another level if they keep plugging guys like Hoglander and Mikheyev with Pettersson. 
 

They need a true top 6 player and I imagine they’re looking at every possible way to do it.

 

The answer is to pay to move Mikheyev. The idea of bringing Lindholm back is to have good duos on all 3 lines, and the opportunity to be deeper than our opponents, that means keeping Garland.

 

If they want to max out the top 6 then you either bring Lindholm back with the idea someone moves to wing & he runs with Petey/JT, or you don't bring him back & use that money on a winger. 

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Says who?

Watching him play and where he starts his shifts. He’s decent in the O Zone but not very good at all without the puck, especially defensively. He’s a guy who usually starts in the O Zone (60+% of the time.) Plus he shoots left. We need a three C who is good defensively and preferably shoots right. Pageau checks those boxes. Monahan is more an offensive guy.