Canadian Politics Thread

[The Lock]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think you'll also see children of Muslim immigrants in North America reject religion as well.  

 

I know someone who grew up with hindu parents and then became taoist (which might be the closest religion to athiesm but I've never really looked into it). I think it's less dependent on the religion and more dependent on the person in the end.

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think you'll also see children of Muslim immigrants in North America reject religion as well.  

Not too mention a disproportionately high percentage of immigrants from those parts of the world will be fleeing the theocracies, and will have adhere to either a different religion or none at all.

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377

 

Older article, but best info a quick Google popped up.

That is some good valid info, i just didn't want to get into the whole arab spring, Tunisia Student conference domino effect that is still rippling through the middle east as it is extremely complicated even for me, and I was working in the field at the start of it. 

 

Generally, give the people of a repressed/oppressed region access to information and limit their exposure to consequences for knowing it and religion generally will recede, along with authoritarian/Dictatorial governments. In Tunisia i want to say around 2007? but don't quote me on that off the top of my head, a large gathering of middle eastern/north african mostly arab students were gifted cell phones that were not 'blocked' as most of the interwebs are in authoritarian countries. What ensued was a youth led sort of revolt that rippled through the arab world and almost stopped short of its goal of effecting change in Iran. I say almost because low and behold post isis, which was a complication, it seems there is a wave of Iranian youth that are disillusioned with the fifty year old revolution that is in fact a Theocracy in Iran. So I have hope that that the final domino in the arab spring may actually still topple. 

 

I can't really speak any more to it, that is as good a summary as i can write off the top of my head.

 

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think you'll also see children of Muslim immigrants in North America reject religion as well.  

I am hopeful, but they are typically more inclined to stay true to their religion of upbringing than say the youth of European style christians in western nations. 

[Ryan Strome]

21 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377

 

Older article, but best info a quick Google popped up.

Thanks King. Good read.

19 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

This would be from the muslim nations being among the fastest growing in terms of population. More kids born under muslim parents means more muslims.

 

Contrast that with christian nations. While some of the African christian nations would be growing, others, like in Europe, are on the decline.

Oh I understand the birth rate. I was just wondering if religion as a whole is declining globally?

14 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think you'll also see children of Muslim immigrants in North America reject religion as well.  

Yeah this was my thinking as well but I certainly have nothing to back it up with. Given you are a teacher and likely teaching potentially kids of Muslim immigrants I  wonder if you've got more insight on this that you could share?

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am hopeful, but they are typically more inclined to stay true to their religion of upbringing than say the youth of European style christians in western nations. 

Until they become integrated with western freedom.  At the very least, they become very progressive muslims......for the most part

[Johngould21]

5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Frankly I am over the moon that they finally dropped the Liberal label in BC. The "BC LIberals" were taken over by the former Social Credit folks, including my cousin (a former Socred cabinet minister) and other conservatives when they concluded the 'conservative' brand in BC was a non starter. I mean our first Premier changed his name to Amor De Cosmos between being elected and being sworn into office. We are a special kind of folks in BC and will never really be in step with Alberta, Ontario, Quebec or the Maritimes, we are a distinct society as is the prairies and as are the Quebecers and Maritimers back east. That is what makes Canada Strong in my mind though, our diversity is our strength. 

 

Now that the wolves have taken off the sheeps clothing I don't think they will hold power in BC for a fairly long time and then only when/if the government gets so stale folks have to toss them out to change the diaper. 

 

I am more interested in knocking off the BC Green party leader from the Cowichan Valley seat.  It is my riding provincially and she has done nothing, hasnt been seen in a year plus and seems out of her league as a party leader in office. I think I will be voting NDP here next time, and for the first time in my life actively working for them to succeed. (Not an historical NDP supporter)

I, for one could never vote for any party headed by Kevin (I only point fingers) Falcon. Who else in this forum couldn't see the *Hit show when he was selected as the leader. He's baggage from the Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark era in the Province. I'm still trying to get the bad taste from my mouth after having them destroy this Province. When your fellow party members cross the floor to the Conservatives, not a good sign.

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Johngould21 said:

I, for one could never vote for any party headed by Kevin (I only point fingers) Falcon. Who else in this forum couldn't see the *Hit show when he was selected as the leader. He's baggage from the Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark era in the Province. I'm still trying to get the bad taste from my mouth after having them destroy this Province. When your fellow party members cross the floor to the Conservatives, not a good sign.

 

That's kind of my problem with him too actually. Any time a party points more fingers than actually tells me what they'll do to solve problems, I'm hesitant. I don't care what you think of another party, tell me what your OWN party is about so I can actually decide if you're any better than who you're pointing at. lol

[Optimist Prime]

59 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377

 

Older article, but best info a quick Google popped up.

The bit on Erdogan got me mentally off topic, but I am back while my air fryer makes supper. WHen i retired and came home to BC my buddy retired and went to his area of expertise: Turkey, to marry a sweetheart he met and dated while he was in the theater. I spent a lot of time in Syria in the late 90's and early 2000's, he spent his time in Turkey doing similar work. 

 

He has been arrested 7 times on various Canada Day's for flying the Canadian Flag on his balcony. Every time a neighbour reports him as being a terrorist calling for the unseating of Erdogan and every time he has to explain at the police station that no, he isn't a terrorist, he is just a Canadian who lives in Turkey and celebrates Canada's birthday by flying the flag...i tell him not to and he says but he should be allowed to and does it anyway: most years he is arrested and has to account for himself or face jail. 

 

He tells me that of the millions of protestors in the streets oppposing Erdogan in the last 5 or 7 years, sometimes millions at one time, the 'official' election results as told by Erdogan are that 97% of voters support him. Nonesense. he is an authoritarian dictator who is moving Turkey back towards a Muslim Theocracy. The funny thing is it isn't even that Erdogan is a devout muslim Haji, he is just capitalizing on his countries position physically in the world to try to play three different factions against each other to his bennefit. Not sure how this will end in Turkey, but he is in power similarly to how Putin is in power. Those who like him like him a lot and have a bunch of guns. 

[The Lock]

Thinking about it, I feel that Trump's degraded politics, not only in his own country, but also here as well. Is it just me or does our politics feel more and more like American politics with parties just throwing punches at each other rather than debating policies?

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

Thinking about it, I feel that Trump's degraded politics, not only in his own country, but also here as well. Is it just me or does our politics feel more and more like American politics with parties just throwing punches at each other rather than debating policies?

While you aren't wrong, is Trump really to blame for it or was this a trend that's been happening for decades? I watched the United States debate on YouTube from 1960 with John Kennedy and the respect they showed for each other. They got up and talked and then went and sat back down while the other talked. So from then until now it has changed drastically. But even if we look pre-trump debates were constantly interrupted and mud slinging so I don't know if he's to blame, but he certainly probably is exacerbated it.

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

While you aren't wrong, is Trump really to blame for it or was this a trend that's been happening for decades? I watched the United States debate on YouTube from 1960 with John Kennedy and the respect they showed for each other. They got up and talked and then went and sat back down while the other talked. So from then until now it has changed drastically. But even if we look pre-trump debates were constantly interrupted and mud slinging so I don't know if he's to blame, but he certainly probably is exacerbated it.

 

Given how the republican party is now compared to what they were like pre-Trump, I'm pretty confident Trump would be at least a factor even if one were able to state how he wouldn't the sole blame. We see this even with emerging right wing parties up here.

Edited October 5, 2023 by The Lock

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

 

Given how the republican party is now compared to what they were like pre-Trump, I'm pretty confident Trump would be at least a factor even if one were able to state how he wouldn't the sole blame. We see this even with emerging right wing parties up here.

Oh I mean looking at the Republican debates now and even in 2016 absolutely he is the reason for it. My point was though, is it just too easy for us to blame him for how our politicians act in this country? I mean I'm not suggesting you are wrong. I just wonder if this was a trend that was taking place anyways.

[moosehead]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

I think you'll also see children of Muslim immigrants in North America reject religion as well.  

 

 

Immigrants often struggle to integrate seemlessly due to a lack of support that is available to them. 

 

 

 

[The Lock]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Oh I mean looking at the Republican debates now and even in 2016 absolutely he is the reason for it. My point was though, is it just too easy for us to blame him for how our politicians act in this country? I mean I'm not suggesting you are wrong. I just wonder if this was a trend that was taking place anyways.

 

It's hard to completely say. Let's take the Conservative party in BC as an example. There have been notions for a while of a party wanting to come to fruition long before Trump, so that idea would not be up for debate. However, the party never gained traction until after Trump.

 

Coincide this with the success of the PPC. If Trump never came into power, would the PPC have gained the traction that it did? While we may never know for sure, I would also raise the question of when has other far right parties ever risen to that much power? I don't recall it happening often if ever to the extent that it has. Usually, when a party actually gains as much traction as the PPC has, it's not typically as right leaning. I'd argue even the Reform Party of the 90's wasn't as right leaning.

[Optimist Prime]

11 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

It's hard to completely say. Let's take the Conservative party in BC as an example. There have been notions for a while of a party wanting to come to fruition long before Trump, so that idea would not be up for debate. However, the party never gained traction until after Trump.

 

Coincide this with the success of the PPC. If Trump never came into power, would the PPC have gained the traction that it did? While we may never know for sure, I would also raise the question of when has other far right parties ever risen to that much power? I don't recall it happening often if ever to the extent that it has. Usually, when a party actually gains as much traction as the PPC has, it's not typically as right leaning. I'd argue even the Reform Party of the 90's wasn't as right leaning.

The PPC itself is an offshoot party: their leader was the Minister of Industry, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of State in the Harper government, let us not kid ourselves, he is butthurt that he didn't win but "let us be very clear" to borrow a phrase from Harper himself:

 

Maxime Bernier, the far right extremist got 49.05% of the rank and file Conservative members votes to be the leader of the party only as far back as 2017!!

 

 

[The Lock]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

The PPC itself is an offshoot party: their leader was the Minister of Industry, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of State in the Harper government, let us not kid ourselves, he is butthurt that he didn't win but "let us be very clear" to borrow a phrase from Harper himself:

 

Maxime Bernier, the far right extremist got 49.05% of the rank and file Conservative members votes to be the leader of the party only as far back as 2017!!

 

 

 

And just think. 2017 came AFTER Trump was elected.

 

Imagine that.

[stawns]

18 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

 

Immigrants often struggle to integrate seemlessly due to a lack of support that is available to them. 

 

 

 

I agree, but their kids don't, especially ones born here.  They integrate right in.

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

I agree, but their kids don't, especially ones born here.  They integrate right in.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

 

I  hear France has issues ( riots etc )  but maybe it is still the new immigrants and not 2nd generation.     I have a relative that lives there, but my info is anecdotal so maybe not accurate.

 

Canadians only riot after hockey losses.... 

 

I guess i need more time visiting France... LOL 

Edited October 5, 2023 by moosehead

[Rook]

24 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

 

Immigrants often struggle to integrate seemlessly due to a lack of support that is available to them. 

 

 

 

That’s maybe a bit of a broad statement.  As a son of an immigrant, having kids were 3 of the 4 sets of great-grandparents being immigrants I can say it was fairly seemless. 1 of those sets already spoke English while the others did not.  All came from cultures of euro/Scandinavian background.  Maybe these factors had a factor.  But I also have multiple other family from Asia, southwest Asia and they seemed to be ok as well so I’m not sure what to say.  The one common bond they all had was wanting to come here to be Canadian.  They brought their traditions as did my Dad, but they wanted to grow in the big melding pot that is North American society.  Would love to hear others takes on this.  What kind of support do you think will help moose?  

[Ryan Strome]

28 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

It's hard to completely say. Let's take the Conservative party in BC as an example. There have been notions for a while of a party wanting to come to fruition long before Trump, so that idea would not be up for debate. However, the party never gained traction until after Trump.

 

Coincide this with the success of the PPC. If Trump never came into power, would the PPC have gained the traction that it did? While we may never know for sure, I would also raise the question of when has other far right parties ever risen to that much power? I don't recall it happening often if ever to the extent that it has. Usually, when a party actually gains as much traction as the PPC has, it's not typically as right leaning. I'd argue even the Reform Party of the 90's wasn't as right leaning.

You just raised some interesting points. I guess I was sticking to kind of the debate discussion myself. I just see that they don't debate policy. They just shout over each other.

13 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

The PPC itself is an offshoot party: their leader was the Minister of Industry, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of State in the Harper government, let us not kid ourselves, he is butthurt that he didn't win but "let us be very clear" to borrow a phrase from Harper himself:

 

Maxime Bernier, the far right extremist got 49.05% of the rank and file Conservative members votes to be the leader of the party only as far back as 2017!!

 

 

So while I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, the bolded part kind of contradicts what you said in my opinion. Because that Bernier was totally different. After he lost he went completely psycho.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Ryan Strome

[Ryan Strome]

7 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

 

I  hear France has issues ( riots etc )  but maybe it is still the new immigrants and not 2nd generation.     I have a relative that lives there, but my info is anecdotal so maybe not accurate.

 

Canadians only riot after hockey losses.... 

 

I guess i need more time visiting France... LOL 

No man France does a piss poor job of assimilating their immigrants. Though we have work to do in this country, we are actually far better than most nations for assimilation.

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

You just raised some interesting points. I guess I was sticking to kind of the debate discussion myself. I just see that they don't debate policy. They just shout over each other.

So while I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, the bolded part kind of contradicts what you said in my opinion. Because that Bernier was totally different. After he lost he went completely psycho.

I am not sure what the name for this is, but it occurs all the time from what I have seen: Person does things all life long that are fine upstanding things according to his community then person does something that discredits that community and is suddenly 'psycho' or 'not a real christian' or 'a plant' and any other kind of distancing you can think of from the person. Bernier has always been Maxime Bernier, the right wing folks that elected him simply don't like that he isn't being Maxime Bernier for them anymore and he is being Maxime Bernier for another group now. 

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am not sure what the name for this is, but it occurs all the time from what I have seen: Person does things all life long that are fine upstanding things according to his community then person does something that discredits that community and is suddenly 'psycho' or 'not a real christian' or 'a plant' and any other kind of distancing you can think of from the person. Bernier has always been Maxime Bernier, the right wing folks that elected him simply don't like that he isn't being Maxime Bernier for them anymore and he is being Maxime Bernier for another group now. 

I don't know man cuz as you say when he was in the Harper government outside of leaving important paperwork had a Hell's Angel house. You never really heard much about the guy. Then he loses and turns psycho

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

I don't know man cuz as you say when he was in the Harper government outside of leaving important paperwork had a Hell's Angel house. You never really heard much about the guy. Then he loses and turns psycho

Shrug, some would consider that his confidential government paperwork being left at a Hells clubhouse was proof of him being 'psycho' while he was a minister in the Harper Government, but potatoe patatoe. I guess we can agree he is psycho and move on.