Canadian Politics Thread

[4petesake]

15 minutes ago, Maninthebox said:

 

Why? Other than stereotypes, what does 'being Canadian' mean?

 

I agree with your point about Smith. I tend to look at this APP endeavor as a litmus test for full separation, a feeling out process essentially. Somewhat akin to making sure you grab your toothbrush and favorite Van Halen shirt before breaking up with an obsessive girlfriend.

Mostly because of the stereotypes to be honest. We have our problems like everywhere but overall a good balance of fairness, equality, quality of life, diversity of people/geography/climate, opportunity, and any other stereotype you choose. And yes…lots of work to do.
 

 I guess it depends how narrow a person wants their world to be. If one’s not happy or satisfied with being Canadian what is the option? Separation for a province? Why stop there, break up a province into little fiefdoms. Edmonton, and Calgary to an extent, are as diverse politically from the rest of the province as are BC & Alta.

 

I like your toothbrush and VH shirt analogy but I might add grabbing her car keys, her dog and a few other valuables on your way out.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Maninthebox said:

 

Why? Other than stereotypes, what does 'being Canadian' mean?

 

A lot. Mobility across the country. A shared sense of fairness (other than the alienation crap). Strong links to nature. There's a common Canadian-ness that you recognize when you actually travel across this country and meet people. 

 

Smith plays on the idea that Albertans have been screwed over for decades. Its ridiculous and can't be proven objectively, so they go for nonsense stuff like "53% of the CPP."

 

1 hour ago, Maninthebox said:

I agree with your point about Smith. I tend to look at this APP endeavor as a litmus test for full separation, a feeling out process essentially. Somewhat akin to making sure you grab your toothbrush and favorite Van Halen shirt before breaking up with an obsessive girlfriend.

 

If all you distill things down to is the almighty buck and then think you've been screwed out of it, yeah sure go ahead and separate I guess. 

[Boudrias]

17 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

But you are wrong on the CPP. No one can keep you from your defined benefit. The idea that Albertans won't get it is just hyperbolic.

 

It's also just not true that Alberta is owed half of CPP assets. Good luck on that one.

 

Harper took a ton of heat from Ontario on the recalculation of the health transfer system. He would have changed equalization if it made sense.

 

I think a lot of your reasoning comes from emotion tbh. The idea of western alienation is toxic imo. Western people are not victims. That belief leads to a lot of faulty thinking.

I would suggest that emotionalism exists on both sides of this discussion. I appreciate that you have faith in federal institutions and they might end up surviving what I think will be an inevitable confrontation. CPP and Equalization exist as federal programs and survive on that basis. All provinces have the right to contest the nuts and bolts and even the existence of them. 

 

Whether 'faulty thinking' or not I support putting the numbers out for review and discussion. I think that is what Alberta is doing. If Albertans are to ultimately make an informed decision then this must happen. As per usual politicians like to cast such discussions to their advantage. Suggesting that Smith and Moe are simply nutbars does not lead the discussion anywhere. Smith and Moe are not unique to the political landscape of Western Canada. They are a continuation of decades long leadership. If Smith and Trudeau cannot hammer out some kind of accord then we are all in trouble. 

[King Heffy]

32 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I would suggest that emotionalism exists on both sides of this discussion. I appreciate that you have faith in federal institutions and they might end up surviving what I think will be an inevitable confrontation. CPP and Equalization exist as federal programs and survive on that basis. All provinces have the right to contest the nuts and bolts and even the existence of them. 

 

Whether 'faulty thinking' or not I support putting the numbers out for review and discussion. I think that is what Alberta is doing. If Albertans are to ultimately make an informed decision then this must happen. As per usual politicians like to cast such discussions to their advantage. Suggesting that Smith and Moe are simply nutbars does not lead the discussion anywhere. Smith and Moe are not unique to the political landscape of Western Canada. They are a continuation of decades long leadership. If Smith and Trudeau cannot hammer out some kind of accord then we are all in trouble. 

We were in trouble the minute Alberta elected Smith.  Trudeau shouldn't be offering her anything until she cuts out this garbage and starts acting appropriately.  If she's unwilling to do so, send in the troops and deal with her the same way as the FLQ was handled.

[Bob Long]

51 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I would suggest that emotionalism exists on both sides of this discussion. I appreciate that you have faith in federal institutions and they might end up surviving what I think will be an inevitable confrontation. CPP and Equalization exist as federal programs and survive on that basis. All provinces have the right to contest the nuts and bolts and even the existence of them. 

 

No we can't 'both sides' this thing. There's no rational argument to be made that Alberta is in some precarious position or being treated unfairly in regard to the CPP in particular. 

 

Sure provinces can contest these programs and have. Thats why I used the example of health transfers, that was one area where Alberta could legitimately argue for more money, and did receive it. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Whether 'faulty thinking' or not I support putting the numbers out for review and discussion. I think that is what Alberta is doing. If Albertans are to ultimately make an informed decision then this must happen. As per usual politicians like to cast such discussions to their advantage. Suggesting that Smith and Moe are simply nutbars does not lead the discussion anywhere. Smith and Moe are not unique to the political landscape of Western Canada. They are a continuation of decades long leadership. If Smith and Trudeau cannot hammer out some kind of accord then we are all in trouble. 

 

But we already have an informed decision. This latest thing by Smith and whatever Moe thinks he's doing is pure emotional politics and game playing. There's nothing to 'hammer out' this is all for political theatre.

 

I don't say western alienation is a victim complex just to be flippant. Its a real problem that's led to some really bad leaders in AB. If you really look at the records of people like Kenney and Smith you can't tell me that's the best Alberta has to offer. 

 

As far as SK goes, Moe has literally done next to nothing to improve that province. Its still the same missed opportunity that province has always been, except now they have more oil revenue. 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Bob Long

[aGENT]

23 hours ago, Boudrias said:

What is Alberta's share? This is why I favor seeing a distillation of the hard numbers.

 

How the hell would one arrive at anything resembling "hard numbers"? It's entirely subjective depending on where you draw the borders.

 

Is it the CPP earnings of only people born in Alberta that are the "hard numbers"? What if they moved out of Province for work? How long were they out of Province? What about workers from elsewhere in Canada that moved to Alberta for work? How long did they live there? Are they still there? Is Tim from Nova Scotia that worked in the oil fields for 8 years "Alberta"? If there's an Oil and Gas tradeshow in Montreal for Albertan Oil companies, did the venue staff and event organizers pay part of "Alberta CPP"? How do you factor in the ability to freely move their goods and obtain workers from across the country?

Edited October 23, 2023 by aGENT

[Boudrias]

35 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

How the hell would one arrive at anything resembling "hard numbers"? It's entirely subjective depending on where you draw the borders.

 

Is it the CPP earnings of only people born in Alberta that are the "hard numbers"? What if they moved out of Province for work? How long were they out of Province? What about workers from elsewhere in Canada that moved to Alberta for work? How long did they live there? Are they still there? Is Tim from Nova Scotia that worked in the oil fields for 8 years "Alberta"? If there's an Oil and Gas tradeshow in Montreal for Albertan Oil companies, did the venue staff and event organizers pay part of "Alberta CPP"? How do you factor in the ability to freely move their goods and obtain workers from across the country?

Wouldn't Quebec have the same concerns? There appears to be a process. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

4 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Wouldn't Quebec have the same concerns? There appears to be a process. 

Sort of, but they created their program at the beginning.  They didn't threaten to leave the CPP almost 60 years later.  

 

There is a process, and the worker has some say on how their benefits dealt with.  That's why Premier Moron's claim to a massive 53% is absolute trash.  

 

I think throwing your benefits behind oil and gas is far, far too risky over the long term.  

[Satchmo]

7 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

I think throwing your benefits behind oil and gas is far, far too risky over the long term.  

Plus one on that.

 

I think Canada, and Canadians, have to be in it for the long haul and the unavoidable ups and downs.   Who knows what province will be the richest in 50 or 100 years?  (And yes, I hope Canada will last that long and much longer.)

 

As for the right now, I don't mind if I have to pay a tiny bit more just for the Maritimes to continue to be the Maritimes.   

 

 

[aGENT]

33 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Wouldn't Quebec have the same concerns? There appears to be a process. 

Quebec opted out ~60 years ago upon the creation of both programs. I can't even imagine the logistics of going back through 60 years, of millions of citizens tax returns, who lived where and when, to even try to begin to come to "hard numbers". 

[4petesake]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

How the hell would one arrive at anything resembling "hard numbers"? It's entirely subjective depending on where you draw the borders.

 

Is it the CPP earnings of only people born in Alberta that are the "hard numbers"? What if they moved out of Province for work? How long were they out of Province? What about workers from elsewhere in Canada that moved to Alberta for work? How long did they live there? Are they still there? Is Tim from Nova Scotia that worked in the oil fields for 8 years "Alberta"? If there's an Oil and Gas tradeshow in Montreal for Albertan Oil companies, did the venue staff and event organizers pay part of "Alberta CPP"? How do you factor in the ability to freely move their goods and obtain workers from across the country?

Good point and something I had not thought about. 15 out of my 40 years of work were in Alberta.  Smith thinks she can take  credit for my lifetime of CCP contributions?

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Good point and something I had not thought about. 15 out of my 40 years of work were in Alberta.  Smith thinks she can take  credit for my lifetime of CCP contributions?

 

Even if the "borders" are laid out in black and white with regards to all those things, the sheer logistics of going through almost 60 years of, millions of peoples tax returns and who lived/worked/earned where and for how long, is mind boggling.

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

Even if the "borders" are laid out in black and white with regards to all those things, the sheer logistics of going through almost 60 years of, millions of peoples tax returns and who lived/worked/earned where and for how long, is mind boggling.

It would be worse than when BC backed out of the HST, which was also stupid.

[aGENT]

Just now, King Heffy said:

It would be worse than when BC backed out of the HST, which was also stupid.

 

Amen. Clear evidence that the "will of the people" isn't always what's best for those people. It astonishes me how many people actively vote against their own best interest due to "feelings". But I guess that's about 95% of the conservative base so... 

[5forFighting]

5 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

No we can't 'both sides' this thing. There's no rational argument to be made that Alberta is in some precarious position or being treated unfairly in regard to the CPP in particular. 

 

Sure provinces can contest these programs and have. Thats why I used the example of health transfers, that was one area where Alberta could legitimately argue for more money, and did receive it. 

 

 

 

But we already have an informed decision. This latest thing by Smith and whatever Moe thinks he's doing is pure emotional politics and game playing. There's nothing to 'hammer out' this is all for political theatre.

 

I don't say western alienation is a victim complex just to be flippant. Its a real problem that's led to some really bad leaders in AB. If you really look at the records of people like Kenney and Smith you can't tell me that's the best Alberta has to offer. 

 

As far as SK goes, Moe has literally done next to nothing to improve that province. Its still the same missed opportunity that province has always been, except now they have more oil revenue. 

 

 

 

If they vote to leave, no big deal. That is democracy, let them go. 

 

Same for Quebec. If someone doesn't want to be part of this country, good or bad, let them vote and then begone. 

[King Heffy]

10 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

If they vote to leave, no big deal. That is democracy, let them go. 

 

Same for Quebec. If someone doesn't want to be part of this country, good or bad, let them vote and then begone. 

If they thought they had a tough time getting their oil to the coasts before, just wait until they have to negotiate with another country.  Nothing to stop the Feds severely limiting tanker traffic if those morons think they can succeed as a country.

[Bob Long]

20 minutes ago, 5forFighting said:

If they vote to leave, no big deal. That is democracy, let them go. 

 

Same for Quebec. If someone doesn't want to be part of this country, good or bad, let them vote and then begone. 

 

If only it were that simple tho. It's such a bad idea for Albertans in particular but you are correct, if they voted for separating we'd have to respect it and figure it out.

 

If it were based on reality I guess I could see the point but one the western alienation boogeyman is gone then what? Bad neighbors keeping them down? Where would it stop?

[Gurn]

If they leave, they get to take what they brought into confederation.

So they get the Northern half of Alberta, but have to pay Canada restitution, for all the money that got their oil sands project going.

Canada keeps all the national parks.

And so on.

 

 

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Gurn said:

If they leave, they get to take what they brought into confederation.

So they get the Northern half of Alberta, but have to pay Canada restitution, for all the money that got their oil sands project going.

Canada keeps all the national parks.

And so on.

 

 

and then there's tidewater access. And the whole CPP thingy. 

 

It would be just such as waste of time and money. 

 

But Smith just loves pushing these buttons. Nothing like some empty anger to get the hoopleheads going. 

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, 5forFighting said:

If they vote to leave, no big deal. That is democracy, let them go. 

 

Same for Quebec. If someone doesn't want to be part of this country, good or bad, let them vote and then begone. 

 

Given either of them leaving could actually become the start of the end of Canada, I would beg to differ when it comes to the "no big deal" part of your post. I agree that we should acknowledge any voting results that happen, but it absolutely would be a big deal if it did happen that would affect all of us.

 

We shouldn't be taking anything like this for granted given how close Quebec was to leaving in the 90's.

Edited October 23, 2023 by The Lock

[Johngould21]

7 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

No we can't 'both sides' this thing. There's no rational argument to be made that Alberta is in some precarious position or being treated unfairly in regard to the CPP in particular. 

 

Sure provinces can contest these programs and have. Thats why I used the example of health transfers, that was one area where Alberta could legitimately argue for more money, and did receive it. 

 

 

 

But we already have an informed decision. This latest thing by Smith and whatever Moe thinks he's doing is pure emotional politics and game playing. There's nothing to 'hammer out' this is all for political theatre.

 

I don't say western alienation is a victim complex just to be flippant. Its a real problem that's led to some really bad leaders in AB. If you really look at the records of people like Kenney and Smith you can't tell me that's the best Alberta has to offer. 

 

As far as SK goes, Moe has literally done next to nothing to improve that province. Its still the same missed opportunity that province has always been, except now they have more oil revenue. 

 

 

 

Add to that list, Prentice, and Redford, they managed to squander all of their Heritage fund during their terms. Rachel Notley, had to deal with $14 oil to govern that Province. I believe all of those Premiers were recommended by Stevie Wonder. On the National stage, Scheer, PP, and O' Toole. All Stevie Wonders go to guys.

[King Heffy]

13 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Given either of them leaving could actually become the start of the end of Canada, I would beg to differ when it comes to the "no big deal" part of your post. I agree that we should acknowledge any voting results that happen, but it absolutely would be a big deal if it did happen that would affect all of us.

 

We shouldn't be taking anything like this for granted given how close Quebec was to leaving in the 90's.

And BC would be in the worst position of all the provinces due to being cut off geographically from the rest of the country.

[Gurn]

19 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

And BC would be in the worst position of all the provinces due to being cut off geographically from the rest of the country.

they don't get to keep all that land, passage will and must be maintained.

Check out the maps of what they brought in, because imo that's all the land they get to take out.

 

Upper half, from around Edmonton and north.

[Curmudgeon]

The most important aspect of the CPPIB is that operates OUTSIDE of political control. Trudeau can't touch it, Pollievre can't touch it, Harper couldn't touch it and Danielle Smith sure as hell can't touch it.

 

My greatest concern with a so called APP is that it becomes an overly tempting cash cow to fund government initiatives that the sitting government can tap into at their own discretion. Think it couldn't happen? Well, according to the Fraser Institute, in 2020 the Alberta Heritage Fund was worth around $16.5 billion, but in 2021, the Fraser Institute estimated the fund SHOULD have been worth just over $33 billion if it had been inflation-proofed since the beginning. Regardless of exact numbers, it's pretty clear that government mismanagement cost the Heritage Fund about half of it's potential value. Evidently that vast pool of money was just to tempting to resist. Who is to say that an Alberta Pension Plan wouldn't be subject to the same government fiscal jiggery-pokery?

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

Even if the "borders" are laid out in black and white with regards to all those things, the sheer logistics of going through almost 60 years of, millions of peoples tax returns and who lived/worked/earned where and for how long, is mind boggling.

I thought your question was how it would be determined who had lived where and contributed what if an Albertan moved away from Alberta or vice versa. My point was that this must occur when Quebecors with their separate plan did the same thing. It suggests that a separate Alberta plan would follow what Quebec is doing.