Canadian Politics Thread

[D.B Cooper]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:18 AM, Gurn said:

Many European countries tie their traffic fines into the perps income; which is why the "Finish Flash" ended up with a $39,000 speeding ticket.

 

And his wasn't the largest fine

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

"

Reima Kuisla, a Finnish businessman, was recently caught going 65 miles per hour in a 50 zone in his home country—an offense that would typically come with a fine of a couple hundred dollars, at most, in the U.S. But after Finnish police pulled Kuisla over, they pinged a federal taxpayer database to determine his income, consulted their handbook, and arrived at the amount that he was required to pay: €54,000.

The fine was so extreme because in Finland, some traffic fines, as well as fines for shoplifting and violating securities-exchange laws, are assessed based on earnings—and Kuisla's declared income was €6.5 million per year. Exorbitant fines like this are infrequent, but not unheard of: In 2002, a Nokia executive was fined the equivalent of $103,000 for going 45 in a 30 zone on his

 

While that is a neat idea, police(government revenue collectors) are far too inconsistent for it to be fair.  
At least here in North America they are. 

[D.B Cooper]

On 11/16/2023 at 4:05 PM, Maninthebox said:

https://globalnews.ca/news/10096664/plastic-ban-overturned-court/

 

The Federal Court just overturned Ottawa’s single-use plastic ban - National

globalnews.ca

The Federal Court overturned Canada’s ban on single-use plastic on Thursday, deeming the policy “unreasonable and unconstitutional.”

The decision found that the classification of plastics in the cabinet order was too broad to be listed on the List of Toxic Substances in Schedule 1 and the government acted outside of its authority.

“There is no reasonable apprehension that all listed Plastic Manufactured Items are harmful,” the decision read.

The decision has essentially quashed a cabinet order that listed plastic manufactured items, such as plastic bags, straws, and takeout containers, as toxic under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act.

Are we getting plastic straws back?

Im pretty sure paper straws are what started to turn me against Trudeau.  Lol!

 

I’ve never thrown a single piece of garbage in the ocean in my entire life, and I guarantee 99% of Canadians haven’t either.  
 

The problem is we have greasy corporations who just ship out garbage off to 3rd world countries, who then just dump it in the fucking ocean.   
 

Instead of wasting Canadians time with dumb shit like making us pay for bags at the grocery store and forcing these dumbass paper straws, big daddy Trudy should be fixing our recycling and disposal issues.  Ffs  

Edited November 19, 2023 by D.B Cooper

[Optimist Prime]

11 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

 

In fairness to Poilevre, if I go out of my way to hear him or any other poltician or public speaker, I want to hear those people.  I don't want to hear some hecklers (at least, not too any length) regardless of what they are heckling about.

I couldn't agree more. I hate Pierre Poilievre's brand of politicking, leaning into the fringe elements and fomenting hate, BUT, I am not in favour of protestors drowning out politicians. Let him talk, let him tell us exactly who he is and we can judge him for it. Shaking hands with a Trucker Cowboy in front of a nazi flag: telling us who he is. Being noted for a paper in college demanding that any politician gets only two terms in office for the sanctity of democracy: gets elected in his early 20's, still there 20 years later. Telling us who he really is. Let him talk. 

 

I was at an early Reform rally in Victoria to listen to Preston Manning talk, and a young Steve Harper was there on the stage in the background as apparently he was a speech writer for Preston at the time. My friends, literally my college and university buddies broke down a gate at the ball park and rushed the stage to try to shut up the speakers they disagreed with. I was never again that close with those people. My take away before the interruption was that I was the youngest in the crowd, and being of Scandinavian decent I was also somehow the darkest skin tone, but I was tanned i guess at the time. Looking around the stands about 90% of the attendees were grey haired white males. There was no need to shut down the political rally, as Preston was busy telling us exactly who he was and who was looking out for. 

 

I was never a Reform supporter, and this nonprogressive conservative movement we have now in Canada is an embarrassment to the former good PC days. Still, let them speak, let them tell us who they are, but we better believe them. They are dead serious. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

4 hours ago, Maninthebox said:

 

Is that supposed to be some 'gotcha' moment? One attention seeking muppet, from a twitter post..? How did you feel about Trudeau's experience below?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2283560003660

It figures you would think that is a good thing.

[RupertKBD]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I couldn't agree more. I hate Pierre Poilievre's brand of politicking, leaning into the fringe elements and fomenting hate, BUT, I am not in favour of protestors drowning out politicians. Let him talk, let him tell us exactly who he is and we can judge him for it. Shaking hands with a Trucker Cowboy in front of a nazi flag: telling us who he is. Being noted for a paper in college demanding that any politician gets only two terms in office for the sanctity of democracy: gets elected in his early 20's, still there 20 years later. Telling us who he really is. Let him talk. 

 

I was at an early Reform rally in Victoria to listen to Preston Manning talk, and a young Steve Harper was there on the stage in the background as apparently he was a speech writer for Preston at the time. My friends, literally my college and university buddies broke down a gate at the ball park and rushed the stage to try to shut up the speakers they disagreed with. I was never again that close with those people. My take away before the interruption was that I was the youngest in the crowd, and being of Scandinavian decent I was also somehow the darkest skin tone, but I was tanned i guess at the time. Looking around the stands about 90% of the attendees were grey haired white males. There was no need to shut down the political rally, as Preston was busy telling us exactly who he was and who was looking out for. 

 

I was never a Reform supporter, and this nonprogressive conservative movement we have now in Canada is an embarrassment to the former good PC days. Still, let them speak, let them tell us who they are, but we better believe them. They are dead serious. 

 

I agree. However, I'd also point out that he stood shoulder to shoulder with the "Fu** Trudeau" crowd during the "protest" in Ottawa. He didn't seem to have the slightest issue with people drowning out JT.....

 

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's all "unfair" and "disrespectful".....

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I agree. However, I'd also point out that he stood shoulder to shoulder with the "Fu** Trudeau" crowd during the "protest" in Ottawa. He didn't seem to have the slightest issue with people drowning out JT.....

 

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's all "unfair" and "disrespectful".....

Exactly.  The guy openly supports domestic terrorism and can't handle being called out?  How in holy hell do people seriously think this worthless piece of trash is fit for public office?

[Maninthebox]

9 hours ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

It figures you would think that is a good thing.

 

Is that how your mind translated what I asked? Interesting...

[Boudrias]

22 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I couldn't agree more. I hate Pierre Poilievre's brand of politicking, leaning into the fringe elements and fomenting hate, BUT, I am not in favour of protestors drowning out politicians. Let him talk, let him tell us exactly who he is and we can judge him for it. Shaking hands with a Trucker Cowboy in front of a nazi flag: telling us who he is. Being noted for a paper in college demanding that any politician gets only two terms in office for the sanctity of democracy: gets elected in his early 20's, still there 20 years later. Telling us who he really is. Let him talk. 

 

I was at an early Reform rally in Victoria to listen to Preston Manning talk, and a young Steve Harper was there on the stage in the background as apparently he was a speech writer for Preston at the time. My friends, literally my college and university buddies broke down a gate at the ball park and rushed the stage to try to shut up the speakers they disagreed with. I was never again that close with those people. My take away before the interruption was that I was the youngest in the crowd, and being of Scandinavian decent I was also somehow the darkest skin tone, but I was tanned i guess at the time. Looking around the stands about 90% of the attendees were grey haired white males. There was no need to shut down the political rally, as Preston was busy telling us exactly who he was and who was looking out for. 

 

I was never a Reform supporter, and this nonprogressive conservative movement we have now in Canada is an embarrassment to the former good PC days. Still, let them speak, let them tell us who they are, but we better believe them. They are dead serious. 

I am from the camp believing that politicians should be challenged to defend their positions. Isn't it their role to promote the aspirations of their constituents for the betterment of the country? I wasn't in Victoria when you charged the podium but I was one of the early Reform organizers. Sorry. When we started Reform it was a rejection of Brian Mulroney. The Conservative Party was a top down hierarchy based on promoting eastern Canada priorities. I never experienced the 'hate' you are suggesting. Early Reform was the promotion of grass roots input and equal representation across the country. Many conversations were had about the Swiss form of canton governance. I met both Preston Manning and Stephan Harper a number of times and found them to be very genuine people. 

 

My problem with the CPC began in the 2nd Harper government when the messaging reverted to top down as it was under Mulroney. I can agree with you that Poilievre is taking the easier road to power by constant reinforcement of Trudeau failures in policy. The glaring weakness is that he is forsaking the opportunity to craft a different vision of what Canada could be. But lets face it the vast majority of Canadians don't really care about politics. They care about their immediate needs. It is Trudeau's failures that have led to PP. I suspect people will vote for Pierre because they think he can be no worse than Trudeau and just maybe he has some real ideas. 

 

It is overdo that Canadians become very concerned about how they are governed. Canada is headed for an epic debt crisis which will affect all of us and will likely bring our country's existence into question.  

[Optimist Prime]

15 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I am from the camp believing that politicians should be challenged to defend their positions. Isn't it their role to promote the aspirations of their constituents for the betterment of the country? I wasn't in Victoria when you charged the podium but I was one of the early Reform organizers. Sorry. When we started Reform it was a rejection of Brian Mulroney. The Conservative Party was a top down hierarchy based on promoting eastern Canada priorities. I never experienced the 'hate' you are suggesting. Early Reform was the promotion of grass roots input and equal representation across the country. Many conversations were had about the Swiss form of canton governance. I met both Preston Manning and Stephan Harper a number of times and found them to be very genuine people. 

 

My problem with the CPC began in the 2nd Harper government when the messaging reverted to top down as it was under Mulroney. I can agree with you that Poilievre is taking the easier road to power by constant reinforcement of Trudeau failures in policy. The glaring weakness is that he is forsaking the opportunity to craft a different vision of what Canada could be. But lets face it the vast majority of Canadians don't really care about politics. They care about their immediate needs. It is Trudeau's failures that have led to PP. I suspect people will vote for Pierre because they think he can be no worse than Trudeau and just maybe he has some real ideas. 

 

It is overdo that Canadians become very concerned about how they are governed. Canada is headed for an epic debt crisis which will affect all of us and will likely bring our country's existence into question.  

You should read my post again. I was a seated audience member at the speech, not a guy charging the podium. My whole point was that we can't 'shut up' our opponents with psuedo violent rushing the stage kind of events. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

CRA claws back $458 million in pandemic-era wage subsidies after partial audit

https://canoe.com/news/national/cra-claws-back-458-million-in-pandemic-era-wage-subsidies-after-partial-audit/wcm/58d307ce-5286-45c1-972e-6d8e5949f90d

[RupertKBD]

3 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

CRA claws back $458 million in pandemic-era wage subsidies after partial audit

https://canoe.com/news/national/cra-claws-back-458-million-in-pandemic-era-wage-subsidies-after-partial-audit/wcm/58d307ce-5286-45c1-972e-6d8e5949f90d

 

Sooo......I'm not sure about this.....

 

Is it a good thing, because dammit, we need fiscal responsibility, or is it bad because that cruel Justin Trudeau is picking on poor business owners?

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

9 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

CRA claws back $458 million in pandemic-era wage subsidies after partial audit

https://canoe.com/news/national/cra-claws-back-458-million-in-pandemic-era-wage-subsidies-after-partial-audit/wcm/58d307ce-5286-45c1-972e-6d8e5949f90d

 

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Sooo......I'm not sure about this.....

 

Is it a good thing, because dammit, we need fiscal responsibility, or is it bad because that cruel Justin Trudeau is picking on poor business owners?

 

Yeah, well wait until they start digging around with the CRCEF money given to the research institutions... 

[the destroyer of worlds]

Preston sent a Liberal MP an email that shows the Covid panel he was head of was nothing but a scam to dig up some potential dirt to be used by CONs in the upcoming election.   Color me shocked. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/F78KEU0CbC

[4petesake]

14 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Preston sent a Liberal MP an email that shows the Covid panel he was head of was nothing but a scam to dig up some potential dirt to be used by CONs in the upcoming election.   Color me shocked. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/F78KEU0CbC

 

The Liberal MP that received the email by mistake-

 

 

 

[The Arrogant Worms]

 

[Ghost In a Jar]

On 11/17/2023 at 8:51 PM, 4petesake said:

 

The last line though…
 

“In addition to currency, the Canadian government is also considering putting Charles’ image on cigarettes in the expectation that no one will want to put one of those in their mouth.”

 

I knew Camilla was a smoker

[Elias Pettersson]

EDITORIAL: Liberal debt bomb explodes on taxpayers (msn.com)

 

EDITORIAL: Liberal debt bomb explodes on taxpayers

 

Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland’s fall economic statement on Tuesday exposed a federal government that is bleeding red ink that taxpayers will be paying for generations to come.

 

Caught off guard by rising interest rates, the Trudeau government — meaning taxpayers  — will pay $46.5 billion in interest on the federal debt of more than $1.21 trillion this year, almost 33% higher compared to $35 billion last year, on its way to a staggering $60.7 billion in 2028.

 

The $46.5 billion Canadians will pay in interest on the federal debt this year won’t go to programs to improve the lives of Canadians, nor will it lower the debt. It’s just paying interest on the debt.

 

To appreciate the financial burden this imposes on Canadians, consider this:

 

The $46.5 billion in interest payments on the federal debt this year is just shy of the $47.8 billion the federal government will pay for its Child Care Benefit program ($25.6 billion) plus employment insurance benefits ($22.2 billion) combined.

 

Put another way, the $46.5 billion interest payment on debt is 75% higher than the $26.5 billion the government estimates it will spend on national defence this year.

It’s going to get worse in the coming years. A lot worse.

 

In her March budget this year, Freeland predicted Canada’s interest on debt payments would be $46 billion in 2024. Now she’s raised it to $52.4 billion. Her previous estimate of $50.3 billion in 2027 is now $58.4 billion on its way to $60.7 billion in 2028.

 

Runaway debt is the inevitable outcome of the Liberals’ failure to produce a single balanced budget in their eight years in power.

 

This despite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s election promise in 2015 that he would balance the budget in 2019 — the year before the pandemic hit, so the Liberals can’t use that as an excuse for failing to deliver.

 

In her economic statement last November, Freeland predicted the Liberals, post-pandemic, would balance the budget in 2027.

 

In this year’s economic statement, she estimates there will be a $23.8 billion deficit in 2027 and an $18.4 billion deficit in 2028, when total federal debt will be more than $1.36 trillion, with no plan to balance the budget, in sight.

 

Simply put, Canada can’t afford the Liberals any longer.

[Boudrias]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

EDITORIAL: Liberal debt bomb explodes on taxpayers (msn.com)

 

EDITORIAL: Liberal debt bomb explodes on taxpayers

 

Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland’s fall economic statement on Tuesday exposed a federal government that is bleeding red ink that taxpayers will be paying for generations to come.

 

Caught off guard by rising interest rates, the Trudeau government — meaning taxpayers  — will pay $46.5 billion in interest on the federal debt of more than $1.21 trillion this year, almost 33% higher compared to $35 billion last year, on its way to a staggering $60.7 billion in 2028.

 

The $46.5 billion Canadians will pay in interest on the federal debt this year won’t go to programs to improve the lives of Canadians, nor will it lower the debt. It’s just paying interest on the debt.

 

To appreciate the financial burden this imposes on Canadians, consider this:

 

The $46.5 billion in interest payments on the federal debt this year is just shy of the $47.8 billion the federal government will pay for its Child Care Benefit program ($25.6 billion) plus employment insurance benefits ($22.2 billion) combined.

 

Put another way, the $46.5 billion interest payment on debt is 75% higher than the $26.5 billion the government estimates it will spend on national defence this year.

It’s going to get worse in the coming years. A lot worse.

 

In her March budget this year, Freeland predicted Canada’s interest on debt payments would be $46 billion in 2024. Now she’s raised it to $52.4 billion. Her previous estimate of $50.3 billion in 2027 is now $58.4 billion on its way to $60.7 billion in 2028.

 

Runaway debt is the inevitable outcome of the Liberals’ failure to produce a single balanced budget in their eight years in power.

 

This despite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s election promise in 2015 that he would balance the budget in 2019 — the year before the pandemic hit, so the Liberals can’t use that as an excuse for failing to deliver.

 

In her economic statement last November, Freeland predicted the Liberals, post-pandemic, would balance the budget in 2027.

 

In this year’s economic statement, she estimates there will be a $23.8 billion deficit in 2027 and an $18.4 billion deficit in 2028, when total federal debt will be more than $1.36 trillion, with no plan to balance the budget, in sight.

 

Simply put, Canada can’t afford the Liberals any longer.

No, Canadians cannot afford Trudeau and his government anymore. I suggest they never could. His government has been incurring deficits from their first year in government. They always have a rationale for why more spending is essential. When they forecast their estimates they always overstate GDP growth as a means for providing the money they want to spend. These forecasts are overstated to make their books look better. 2022 there was zero growth with a + 1.3% growth estimate. Again in 2023 the forecast is another 1.3% which will likely not be realized. As Canada descends in recession they forecast GDP growth in 2024 at + 1.6% and 2025 at + 2.9%. IMHO numbers that will not be met. If GDP growth is not there to provide improved government revenue to help pay for spending then where will it come from? Combine those shortfalls with anticipated inflation rates. Inflation = increased cost of doing business. As you accurately stated the cost of carrying federal debt is $ 4 billion per month!

 

Another aspect to consider is provincial and municipal debt. This is another $1 trillion. Add again another $ 2 trillion of consumer debt. Are you getting scared yet? American politicians were/are being criticized for not extending USA debt over longer durations when rates were in the 1.5% range. Canada should have too. Both countries are in big trouble. One can rightfully question what the fallout will be if real estate prices crater in Canada to the same extent as they did in the USA in 2008. It is a confidence game. Many people do not think that can happen. I don't have that faith. When the market dries up and people get scared we could see a huge drop. Municipal revenues are primarily derived from property assessments. Stew on that for awhile. 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

No, Canadians cannot afford Trudeau and his government anymore. I suggest they never could. His government has been incurring deficits from their first year in government. They always have a rationale for why more spending is essential. When they forecast their estimates they always overstate GDP growth as a means for providing the money they want to spend. These forecasts are overstated to make their books look better. 2022 there was zero growth with a + 1.3% growth estimate. Again in 2023 the forecast is another 1.3% which will likely not be realized. As Canada descends in recession they forecast GDP growth in 2024 at + 1.6% and 2025 at + 2.9%. IMHO numbers that will not be met. If GDP growth is not there to provide improved government revenue to help pay for spending then where will it come from? Combine those shortfalls with anticipated inflation rates. Inflation = increased cost of doing business. As you accurately stated the cost of carrying federal debt is $ 4 billion per month!

 

Another aspect to consider is provincial and municipal debt. This is another $1 trillion. Add again another $ 2 trillion of consumer debt. Are you getting scared yet? American politicians were/are being criticized for not extending USA debt over longer durations when rates were in the 1.5% range. Canada should have too. Both countries are in big trouble. One can rightfully question what the fallout will be if real estate prices crater in Canada to the same extent as they did in the USA in 2008. It is a confidence game. Many people do not think that can happen. I don't have that faith. When the market dries up and people get scared we could see a huge drop. Municipal revenues are primarily derived from property assessments. Stew on that for awhile. 

 

these are scary numbers. I think they are accurate as well, which makes it bracing when you look at the reality of what this means going forward.

 

I know people love the idea of free dental and pharma for all, but we just cannot afford it. If we ever did have the chance for that, covid debt took that away.

 

I just don't see how the NDP-Lib coalition can last. We can't afford all the goodies, and I'm just so disappointed in the Liberals lacking economic development plan. 

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

these are scary numbers. I think they are accurate as well, which makes it bracing when you look at the reality of what this means going forward.

 

I know people love the idea of free dental and pharma for all, but we just cannot afford it. If we ever did have the chance for that, covid debt took that away.

 

I just don't see how the NDP-Lib coalition can last. We can't afford all the goodies, and I'm just so disappointed in the Liberals lacking economic development plan. 

 

It's pretty evident that PP will lead the way and the Cons will win the next election.

Is he saying anything that will correct any of these concerns as I hear mostly that 'not being JT' is his strength. I hope there is more to it.

 

A question about dental..shouldn't it really be tied to overall healthcare now? As we now know it can be tied to heart disease etc...

Poor dental hygiene is also effects job opportunities. 

 

So, my thought is that better dental health would elievate stress on the healthcare system and also help get people jobs. Both would obviously help getting our country on a better track... am I off base thinking that? 

 

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

It's pretty evident that PP will lead the way and the Cons will win the next election.

Is he saying anything that will correct any of these concerns as I hear mostly that 'not being JT' is his strength. I hope there is more to it.

 

A question about dental..shouldn't it really be tied to overall healthcare now? As we now know it can be tied to heart disease etc...

Poor dental hygiene is also effects job opportunities. 

 

So, my thought is that better dental health would elievate stress on the healthcare system and also help get people jobs. Both would obviously help getting our country on a better track... am I off base thinking that? 

 

PP is far more interested in promoting his barbaric social policies than in actually fixing the economy.  We're in big trouble unless someone steps in to denazify the CPC.

Edited November 22, 2023 by King Heffy

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

It's pretty evident that PP will lead the way and the Cons will win the next election.

Is he saying anything that will correct any of these concerns as I hear mostly that 'not being JT' is his strength. I hope there is more to it.

 

PP is full of shit, its even more disappointing to me that he's the alternative 

 

He's going to promise as little as possible and ride the JT negativity as far as possible. 

 

4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

A question about dental..shouldn't it really be tied to overall healthcare now? As we now know it can be tied to heart disease etc...

Poor dental hygiene is also effects job opportunities. 

 

So, my thought is that better dental health would elievate stress on the healthcare system and also help get people jobs. Both would obviously help getting our country on a better track... am I off base thinking that? 

 

 

I completely understand your point, and you are correct. But the reality is, imo and I think its pretty clear by our debt numbers, that the chance for these has been pissed away.

 

I was hoping that this version of the Lib's would repeat some of the good things Paul Martin was able to do, but they haven't. Innovation in Canada is worse off today than when the Libs took over, and its very disappointing for me to type that. But it is what it is.

 

PP is such a regressive little creep, its painful that he's what Canada will turn to. 

 

 

 

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

PP is far more interested in promoting his barbaric social policies than in actually fixing the economy.  We're in big trouble unless someone steps in to denazify the CPC.

 

The social aspect of some conservatives is something that pushes me away.

 

Can you tell me some of the stuff you are talking about in the bolded?

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

PP is full of shit, its even more disappointing to me that he's the alternative 

 

He's going to promise as little as possible and ride the JT negativity as far as possible. 

 

 

So if he sucks balls for his tenure we are going to hear what we hear a lot on this website relating to hockey?

It was the last GM's fault?

 

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I completely understand your point, and you are correct. But the reality is, imo and I think its pretty clear by our debt numbers, that the chance for these has been pissed away.

 

 

 

But wouldn't what I propose make/save us more money in the long run?

[Bob Long]

Just now, bishopshodan said:

 

So if he sucks balls for his tenure we are going to hear what we hear a lot on this website relating to hockey?

It was the last GM's fault?

 

 

ad nauseam  

 

Just now, bishopshodan said:

But wouldn't what I propose make/save us more money in the long run?

 

yep. But PP will likely run on a balanced budget agenda, that will be one of the few "big promises". So thats the end of all the expensive ideas, even if (and they likely are) good long term investments.

 

The debt service numbers are frightening. We're getting close to being like a family that owes money to the money to the money it owes and is paying our debt with other credit.